So according to zcar.com, the l28et has same capabilities as an rbxxdet motor

[auxilary]

http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=589827&t=589827

 

wow....

[johnc]

If we are talking about real installations in Zs here in the US then yes, the capabilities are about the same. Jeff Priddy and Stony have (or had) similar horsepower numbers. I don't know about cost but once you start getting above 500hp I assume a smart engine builder is replacing rods, pistons, etc. in both engines.

 

Now, if we are talking about dyno queens or one off JDM builds, then the RB has more impressive numbers (both horsepower and cost).

[Guest Battle Pope]

Man... the crap that comes out of that site just keeps getting better and better! (or worse and worse, depending on whether you're laughing or crying)

[johnc]

Just to add to the information...

 

From SCC http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0302scc_skyline/:

 

Like Sean's R32, in-car electronics include the AVC-R for controlling boost and the Power FC for most of the other engine control duties. Braking capabilities were upgraded from the monster stock rotors to the even larger 14-in. Brembo F50 racing calipers to help stop the hard-charging beast. On its last date with the dyno, Wen's R33 put down 535 hp to the four-wheeled monster while running 91-octane fuel. A subsequent run with 104-octane race gas upped this output to 581 hp. None of these parts were installed when Wen took the trip down the 1320 lane and tripped the lights at 12.21 at 117 mph in completely stock form. We're sure that once he gets a little more driving time inside the five-point NHRA-legal rollcage, the car will perform much better with all the goodies he's installed. The 2000 Skyline R34 is probably the most famous of the trio. Owned by A'PEXi vice president Toshi Hayama, the car has been used as a demonstration vehicle for a host of A'PEXi parts that are available for the platform. Since we don't want to give you an entire shopping list of the goodies in Toshi's R34, we'll just say that almost all of the internals were replaced or fortified with new equipment that, when tuned properly, will surely put this car's horsepower numbers in the 700 to 800 neighborhood.

 

The best Skylines they could find in the US were putting around 600hp to the rear wheels with one supposeldy hitting 700 to 800 if it was ever tuned properly. In 1982/1983 Electramotive built endurance L6 turbo engines putting out close to 700hp at the crank in their 280ZX GTP cars and I know that they had some qualifying/sprint engines that were putting out 750:

 

http://www.a2zracer.com/page85.html

 

[JMortensen]

Wasn't there one 5 or 6 years ago from JUN that put out over 1000 hp? Went for the land speed record IIRC. Ah, here it is: http://www.junauto.co.jp/processing/rb26. According to JUN, over 1000ps. 1000ps = 986hp.

 

I did a quick search, and found this page where they show a Skyline that supposedly puts down 1300 hp, along with one that puts out 890 supposedly, and the 1000 ps JUN. Even if these numbers are accurate (???) you still have to take into consideration how to get all that power to the ground. But I think it's pretty clear that you can get more from the RB than the L. Whether you can actually use that kind of power... that's another story.

[karay240]

Hmm. . .

 

I was not aware that the L series motor was that good. . . I thought that the counter flow design significantly limited really high HP and RPMs. And that the head stud placement/design wasn't as good as the RB. Doesn't the turbo heat up the manifold a little? Interesting.

 

We have an R32 that pumps out 927 to the wheels. . . do you think we should've gone w/ the L series for more low-end torque of a single cam?

 

Jokes aside, I hate to admit this, but $$$ per HP, the way to go is the V8 swap. On top of that, anything you'll need for modification or maintenance is on this continent. However, there is something to say about the RB26DETT sitting in the engine bay of a Z, though. . .

 

To say that the RB20 is a good deal is a little far fetched, thogh. . . It is a decent motor; however, it's not even close to what the 26 can do. I'm pretty sure the military guys that've been into the JP car scene can tell you the same, but I've seen more than a couple ppl ditch the RB20 in favor of the SR20 in their R32's. There's more torque, lighter, and a whole lot more parts than the long retired RB20DET.

 

Speaking of retired, a lot of aftermarket RB20 parts are no longer in production. The only company that I know of that still produces a full line of RB20 parts is Tomei (very high quality, but not cheap).

 

There are ways to make the RB20DET competitive, but it co$t$. You can use the RB26 crank, rods, and aftermarket pistons and bump up the displacement up to 2.3ish L (depending on the bore you choose). That takes care of the torque portion.

 

Now for the top-end. The factory valvetrain used hydraulic lifters for a maintenance free head; however, that limits your cam selection to a lowly 270 degree duration w/ a 8.8mm lift. You could probably get away w/ slightly wilder cams, but I don't recommend it. For the next step, you can either convert to the Tomei solid lifters ($500+$8/shim=$692). Then you'll be able to run more radical cams (up to $700/pair).

 

By the time everything's said and done, you're spending MORE than you would have if you'd just bought the RB26DETT.

 

Sorry for the long post. I just get a little passionate when ppl talk about the RB20 and 25's like they are as good as the 26. Yes, the blocks are similar and they are from similar looking cars, but the 26 is a completely different animal.

 

I've seen several base model Camaros/Firebird/Mustang V6's w/ respectable HP, but regarless of the price, you don't see that many ppl swapping a 3.8L V6 into their Z; the V8 is the way to go (the GN is an exception here). This is due to their higher rating in base trim, and the ultimate potential they have.

 

If you're final goal is only 300~350, then the RB20/25 may be the choice for you, but if your ambitions are high, spend the extra cash and get the 26.

 

I'll shut up now. lol.

[SleeperZ]

If your final goal is 300-350, the L-series does that as well as anything, and for cheap. But to imagine the L-series competing with the RB at the 500+ level is just silly.

 

IMO!!

[karay240]

So johnc, how did you get to the conclusion that the "best" Skylines in the US were pushing 600hp? You are right in a way, in that the stock internals' limit is about 600rwhp, but all you really need to change are pistons and rods to go past 800. Xtreme motorwerks has done a 1000+ dyno pull on thier drag car w/ a stock crank, BTW. There's a R33 here that did a mid 10 second pass w/ two 2530 turbos and a little bit of Nitrous. I don't think we ever dynoed it, but I'd guess it had more than 600hp.

 

And here are a couple of GTR's we have you might be interested in:

 

This is the crazy HP one. This one's got EVERYTHING-a 2.8L stroker kit, cams, the whole 9 yards, and a Dogbox to handle the power.

 

http://rbmotoring.com/gallery/album298

 

 

These 2 are the ones we're working on right now. This one also has everything done to it to collect show points. (kinda hurts my feelings that the full potential will not be realized) The motor will be just as capable as the one above, but has a small turbo (T04Z. . . 700ish HP) and the 300Z MAFs (limits power to 600ish HP).

 

http://rbmotoring.com/gallery/album378

 

 

Even though we didn't build it, Here's our pride and joy. lol. Nismo was the one that actually built it for the Super Taikyu (N1). The motor is actually stock N1 motor, and it pumps out around 600HP on 100 octane (probably on 91 octane, too, but regulations required pump gas in JP). The only parts different than the regular 26 are the water pump, oil pump, exhaust manifold, injectors, gaskets, and the turbo. Of course, the accesories like the radiator and oil cooler have been upgraded. I'm not 100% sure, but I if I was a betting man, I'd bet that the 700HP Z was modified a little more than this R34.

 

http://rbmotoring.com/gallery/album238

 

 

BTW, you'll probably be seeing this 34 more next year. Igor, the founder of automotivefourums.com, will be racing in the Speed World Challenge next season.

[johnc]

So johnc, how did you get to the conclusion that the "best" Skylines in the US were pushing 600hp

 

Per the SCC article.

 

Owned by A'PEXi vice president Toshi Hayama, the car has been used as a demonstration vehicle for a host of A'PEXi parts that are available for the platform. Since we don't want to give you an entire shopping list of the goodies in Toshi's R34, we'll just say that almost all of the internals were replaced or fortified with new equipment that, when tuned properly, will surely put this car's horsepower numbers in the 700 to 800 neighborhood.

 

Toshi's car has been held up by a lot of the sport compact magazines as the US standard for Skylines. Maybe it is, maybe its not.

 

BTW... I'm not dissing the RB engine. They are wonderful engines and are a "better" design then the L6. I"m just trying to add information to the discussion, not just opinions. You RB guys can put your shields down...

[john kosmatka]

there both good motors, very good for their times. IMO a RB26 is essentially, and really is just an updated l28et. The way its a matter of opinions really if your just going to be making 300hp. Once you get into the 500-700 hp range both can do it, its just more widely known that a RB can do it, and probably a bit easier with all the japanese parts available. However for as much power you ever want in a S30, the l28et will be enough imo. But damn those Rb26's sure do look sweet...

[Garrett76Zt]

Even though I'm running the L motor myself, I'd have to say that there really isnt a "close" comparison to be made. I mean, nobody tried harder to really push the potential of an l28 than James did with the TT setup and I think he would tell you that the huge power numbers are never gonna come from that motor. Perhaps that is why he has gone the RB26 route.

 

I also know that Jon Taylor is up in the 400's (hp) with only bolt ons to his BONE STOCK RB25 and he isnt even running 20 psi on that thing yet.

[john kosmatka]

True, I just like the l28et because I have one. Im just jealous of all those with rb26's.

[Jsquared]

you also have to realize that most "import magazines" are more hype than substance. Dave Coleman's SR-powered S13 can't even put down 300wHP with a top-dollar GT28RS turbo and thousands in power mods, and most people can get 300wHP from a used T28 and a retuned ECU. The big-dog RB26s are in the 900wHP+ range, how many L28s are there at 900wHP? Plus... there is no way in hell you can tell me that a side-flow 2-valve head is capable of making more power than a crossflow 4-valve head.

[karay240]

I think you completely missed the point w/ Dave's 240SX. He got the GT28RS and spent that much $$$ for a car w/ decent power and a nice powerband that's available on demand. Of course, if you're going for bragging rights or a drag car, then you'd go w/ something else.

 

Would I go w/ the same setup? No, I wouldn't. I'd want a little more topend than 300; however, I don't think that I'd go much over 350 on the SR. Not just b/c of reliability, but for drivability.

 

Some ppl like peaky powerband. It makes the car "feel" faster, and for a drag car, it's not that bad of a thing. The problem arises whenever you take it out on a road course. A flat powerband w/ 300rwhp will be more forgiving at the limits, and could yeild better times AND be funner to drive than a monster SR pumping out 500rwhp.

 

Just my $0.02

[Guest bastaad525]

Dave Coleman AND his Silvia both ROCK, IMO. His are always my favorite articles to read, and I agree that it seems to me he wasn't really going for HUGE power with his car, he wanted a well balanced car with on-demand power... I think he could easily get a lot more power out it and probably knows it.

 

 

Bow down to the Disco Potato!

[Guest JAMIE T]

LOL, no comment!!!

 

Ok, well maybe I will.

 

James Thagards Twin Turbo 240Z is a prime example of what can be done with a L6. It is fully modified in every manner. I don't remember exactly what it dyno'd, but I figure it was close to 500 hp. It is one of the most powerful L6's in recent history. In contrast, an RB26 can make 500 whp with just a turbo upgrade, nothing else! No head porting, no aftermarket rods, no forged pistons, etc... Infact, the stock turbo's when modified with steel wheels can produce that. Man, Zcar.com sucks

[johnc]

A flat powerband w/ 300rwhp will be more forgiving at the limits, and could yeild better times AND be funner to drive than a monster SR pumping out 500rwhp.

 

In the road race world that is even more true. Good, linear throttle response is very important to fast lap times. FYI... A somewhat poor example: my NA 320hp L6 powered 240Z was 6 seconds a lap faster around WSIR (supposedly a horsepower track) then Amir's 425hp SR20DET powered 260Z. Both cars had identical weight, tread width, tire brand, and drivers (me vs. Amir).

[JMortensen]

That is a pretty poor example John. You've got how much racing experience vs Amir? Your struts cost more than his whole suspension I'm guessing, and how many shifts were there per lap... your sequential box cuts how much time per shift???

 

Really the driver is the biggest thing though. I once LAPPED a 96 911 Turbo in a 20 minute session at Buttonwillow. I don't know how much track time Amir has had and I'm not calling him a bad driver. If you drove both cars or if he drove both cars at least you would have removed the biggest variable...

[Guest JAMIE T]

And... It's not comparing an RBxxDET(T) to an L6.

[johnc]

SCC had a Time Attack event in April 2004 at Buttonwillow. Here are the times recorded for the competitors:

 

http://buckfang.com/pages/tt_competition.html

 

Later that month the Rusty Old Datsun ran in OTC and on the same configuration turned a 1:54:122 in testing. During the 2004 OTC the ROD turned a 1:55:028 after 5 days of racing. BTW... both the ROD and Skyline R34 GT-R were supposedly street legal.