260DET Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Since going up to a 23mm front bar the mount bolts won't stay tight and being 8mm bolts they are not that strong for their purpose, plus a 24mm bar is about to be fitted. So I'd like to improve the mounts but without welding in new bits. Has anyone come up with something fairly simple that solves the problem? Thought of tapping the present captive nuts out to 10mm, if somehow the tap could be kept straight in use. But it seems like a new heavier mounting plate is required that can somehow be attached to the rails without welding. Bolting right through the rails without inside spacers is going to tend to crush them, any ideas, solutions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I've been thinking about this issue too. I just took the fenders off my car and when I got a little light in there I could see that about 4 spot welds were cracked around the sway bar mount. I'll be curious to see what others have to say. The solutions I've seen are basically a big piece of angle that gets welded over the frame. The other that I think was talked about here before involved using a hole saw and cutting the captured nuts out of the frame, then welding a sleeve inside the hole and using a plate on the top and bottom. The latter seems like the stronger solution. Both require welding new parts onto the car. Any particular reason why you want to avoid welding on the car Richard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katman Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Drill straight up through the existing mount nuts all the way out the upper surface of the frame rail. Make a 1/8 plate for the top and run some long bolts throught to capture the frame rail on both sides. Use nylon lock nuts or something similar so you don't have to squash the frame rail to keep the nuts tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S15 200sx owner Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Use nylon lock nuts or something similar so you don't have to squash the frame rail to keep the nuts tight. Or you could look at inserting some pieces of tube through the frame rail, that the longs bolts would go through, this way you would not crush the rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj paul Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 without welding, what these guys are talking about are your only options i believe. try the bar idea i think that sounds good, but i would really rather weld new plates in. you can also try pdk fabrications strut tower bar that mounts to the firewall, strut towers, and right above the sway bars, this is what im doing because i had to entirely replace my front frame from the tension rod holders up. it creates a nice triangle that allows no movement in any direction. i would think this would help. check my site for what im talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preith Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 This has been discussed before, I wish I could remember where I posted it; may have been on another board. Anyways, I ran high strength threaded rod throught the original captured nuts and put a 1/8" plate on the top with nuts as well. It's held together well so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 This has been discussed before, I wish I could remember where I posted it; may have been on another board. Anyways, I ran high strength threaded rod throught the original captured nuts and put a 1/8" plate on the top with nuts as well. It's held together well so far. That's an interesting idea. So am I reading this right that you have a nut on top of the frame rail, a piece of all thread going through the rail and out the bottom of the nut, then a nut on the bottom to hold onto the sway bar bracket? That seems really easy and should be just as strong as welding in a sleeve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWRex Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I hope it works but instead of the plates,I was going to use some scrap 1/8" 2x3 tubing from my subframe connectors,cut one side out to make a "U",slip it over the existing frame rail,weld her in,drill the holes,and use the 2 nuts/threaded rod idea.Should be plenty strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 That's an interesting idea. So am I reading this right that you have a nut on top of the frame rail, a piece of all thread going through the rail and out the bottom of the nut, then a nut on the bottom to hold onto the sway bar bracket? That seems really easy and should be just as strong as welding in a sleeve... So you effectively have studs if I get the gist of what you did. Should work. If you're going to weld things to the car I'd look at putting a boss either inside or outside for a heim joint and hang the swaybar from it. Much lower friction way to mount. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I thought you could only use heims if you have straight tubular bars. Gotta slide the heims onto the bar, right? I'd love to use heims but since I haven't quite gotten to that level so I don't think that works for me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I thought you could only use heims if you have straight tubular bars. Gotta slide the heims onto the bar, right? I'd love to use heims but since I haven't quite gotten to that level so I don't think that works for me anyway. Nope, you make a bracket with ears that hooks to any bar that you have. Think of a split clamp with ears. Here's a pic In this case the heim hooks to the swaybar. Just think of this in reverse. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Sorry, I'm not following Cary. Got a picture or a link to a part for sale maybe? I understand the clamp holds the bearing, but how do you get the bearing on the bar? Seems impossible unless the bearing is also split... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 This is what I'm used to seeing: http://thevenom.net/cobra/frontbar.jpg but you need to have the straight bar in order to slide the heims joint over the end of the bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Sorry, I'm not following Cary. Got a picture or a link to a part for sale maybe? I understand the clamp holds the bearing, but how do you get the bearing on the bar? Seems impossible unless the bearing is also split... I don't have pics at work of this. I'll try and find a pic tonight. The heim attaches to the car with the head hanging down. On the sway bar is a split clamp with ears. This is bolted to the bar and then this is bolted to the heim attached to the car. Maybe that helps? Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 OK, so it would be a relatively large heims joint then. I think that makes sense. I would love to see a pic if you've got one, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 Some useful ideas above, yeh, a pic of the heim joint with ears would help, the picture of it in my head does not look good at all Here is another idea, which I've started to do. It came about through a suspicion that when the bar is working hard it could well be rocking the mounting brackets from side to side. Which prompted some thought on how to better fix the brackets to handle such side stress. So, the brackets have been extended on the outer side to be flush with the outside edge of the rails when bolted up. There is a flange on that outside edge, two holes have been drilled through the extended part of each bracket and that outside edge. Big enough for 6mm bolts, which is about the limit given the size of the flange. My swaybar brackets are aftermarket, 3mm thick steel so stronger than the stock ones. Basically just welded a rectangular piece of flat onto the outside edge of each leg. The stock brackets with two 8mm mounting bolts are entirely inadequate once the sway bar size gets over ~20mm in diameter IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWRex Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I posted with a weekend driver/substantually stronger fix.I am out of my league with the posts presented here.But it is in the catergory in'while I'm at it'relm,Oboy,I'm in for a bigger project than I annticipated:ugg:....keep 'em comin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Nope' date=' you make a bracket with ears that hooks to any bar that you have. Think of a split clamp with ears. Here's a pic [img']http://album.hybridz.org/uploads/9074/rollbar1.jpg[/img] In this case the heim hooks to the swaybar. Just think of this in reverse. So lemme see if I have this straight. You're talking about this part of the picture and you're basically saying that you can make a clamp (or I suppose you could just weld the ears directly to the bar) and then have the heims stick out of the frame rail and attach to the ears on the bar. So basically the bar will pivot on the heims joint which it is attached to rather than pivoting inside a bushing. That's a very interesting idea. Do you think that there might be issues with the end links though? For instance, I'm thinking that my rear end links are going to be short to clear the CV shafts. If the bar pivots on the heims joint then as the suspension runs through its travel the end of the bar will move further fore and aft relative to the control arm, and it seems like this would change the effectiveness of the bar because it would change the angle of the end links more than a standard pivot-in-bushing setup. Or do you think it's not enough to matter. If one were to do this, any idea as to what size end link to use. Looks like the one in the picture is VERY small, like 3/8 or so. That seems awfully small to me, but maybe its enough??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 So basically the bar will pivot on the heims joint which it is attached to rather than pivoting inside a bushing. Yes' date=' that the idea. If you mount the heim in the right spot you should be able to the keep the installed height about the same as a normal bushing. Even if it ends up being taller it won't be enough to cause a major issue. If one were to do this, any idea as to what size end link to use. Looks like the one in the picture is VERY small, like 3/8 or so. That seems awfully small to me, but maybe its enough??? Keep in mind this was a Rocketsports TA car and they have deep pockets. They appear to have used a 3/8 MS spec rod end. I'd opt for lager cheaper ends. I'm guessing a half inch would be overkill but you can get a cheap grade. Or a decent grade 7/16. What's really cool about this mounting method is that it lowers the friction of the swaybar mounts. Poly mounts can have quite a lot and what most people don't realize is the solid U-shaped bars bow in the middle when worked, which leads to more friction. The heim allows this to happen with no worries. And reduced friction always equals more grip. And if you don't want to do this you can always wrap teflon tape over the bar where the bushing is. Or make plastic bushings that have better lubricating properties. The teflon tape will help against squeaks for street cars. I guess the pic helped Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I guess the pic helped For sure. I had no clue what you were talking about until I saw the pic. This looks like it would be pretty easy to do, so I might just take that advice. Thanks Cary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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