ABS vs Non-ABS for PERFORMANCE

[rudypoochris]

Okay, I was chatting with Gollum and we couldn't decide which is better abs or non-abs for performance. From what I have heard a skilled driver who has become acquainted with their non-abs car can outrun the same car with abs. Is this true? Anythoughts? Does the gain in control outway the abs's precision?

 

NOTE: We all know ABS is a great invention it really saves lives, it is great, etc etc. But please keep this in a performance racing viewpoint only. Thanks!

[JMortensen]

The one complaint I've heard consistently from road racers is that ABS is horrible in rain. Comes on way too early. Other than that you have to be a REALLY good braker to outbrake ABS, and ABS keeps getting better and better.

[randy 77zt]

the cars i have taken rides with at sear point or laguna -the owners complained about the abs not being programmed correctly.a well sorted race car or z will stop much quicker.if the abs detects a sliding wheel it will release the brakes-car will roll farther.but i got my *** saved by the abs system in a rented lincoln town car i was driving too fast iin the rain and came up on slow trafffic in.if the car hadnt had abs i probably would have spun the car out by locking the wheels up.so it depends on what you are using the car for.i did a big brake kit on a 95 mustang gt and removed the abs and put a brake bias adjuster in the car and it stopped alot faster.but it would probably lock the rear wheels up in the rain.

[Pop N Wood]

JohnC had some pretty good quotes about racing with ABS. Might try a search.

 

ABS is only as good as the engineers that programed it, and most of them did not anticipate the brake temp levels encountered while racing. John mentioned Camaros that would spin off track when the computer sudden thought the car was in snow. At least that is what I remember from his posts.

 

Guess a good driver running the car on the edge doesn't want the vehicle suddenly and unexpectedly changing it's braking characteristics.

[preith]

In my club (Midwest Council Sports Car Club) the officials always stress to find some way of disabling the ABS, and also stated that in just about anything other than an F1 car it's a detriment to your lap times.

[rudypoochris]

I though F1 cars, at least last time i checked are full manual brakes/no booster with no ABS. Thanks for the comments guys.

 

What about ABS on rears only? (That is what my truck has. It is to stop the rears from locking and killing the engine)

[GrayZee]

I know this comment isn't really about racing but...

 

I live in a part of the world where the roads can be covered with ice for half the year. As a result people that live here generally have alot of skill when it comes to driving on ice compared to people that never or rarely see ice. It has been my experience that ABS is good for a less skilled driver and in certain panic situations that require steering out of the way of danger while braking at the same time. However I think that in most situations I would rather not have ABS as I can stop a vehicle faster and in a shorter distance, (even on ice) without it.

[CruxGNZ]

What about ABS on rears only? (That is what my truck has. It is to stop the rears from locking and killing the engine)

Actually, I believe the ABS in the rear only keeps the truck from spinning out. Keeps it tracking straight.

[crazy280]

As far as I have seen, cars with ABS always have recorded better stopping distances in road tests than cars without it. A good example is the Saleen S7, with no ABS it has very poor stopping distances for such a high end exotic. For example the Viper, with ABS, has much better stopping distances even though it is much heavier than the S7. Personally though, I prefer the pedal feel of a car without ABS.

[Gollum]

As stated by pop n wood, ABS can only be as good as the programmer. I'd venture to say that ABS on race inspired cars will dramatically improve lap times, but maybe I'm talking out my ***.

 

And what about cars like the skyline R34? Those cars are known for the fact that anyone with the dedication can learn to drive them on the edge really well. Now, the pro racers remove all the computer stuff but then very few people can control the car. Truth be told a stock R34 is easy to drive at it's limit compared to say.... almost anything on the market.

 

Then there's the STIs and EVOs that have 4 wheel brake managment to compliment thier AWD systems that allow them to correct for oversteer and turn more like a RWD vehicle (although not completelly) but still are able to be full throttled much earlier in turns. Cars like these would be reduced to thier much earlier and slower counterparts without these ABS systems. Sure the older ones had less power, but they were lighter. The power/weight in these cars hasn't changed too much.

 

I think if we want to talk about ABS though you still have to mention the everyday econo vehicle out there, where ABS is only a saftey feature. In these cars ABS would probly most definatelly cause slower lap times in race conditions, becuase the ABS systems weren't designed to race.

 

Just my .02 cents

[rudypoochris]

Ya true on some of the AWD vehicles. I don't know if the skyline atessa system is hooked into the ABS, there probably is a switch to deactivate it. I think in a general RWD i prefer not.

[johnc]

Here's a thread from last year discussing ABS and racing:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=93240

 

There's more to it though. Cars built within the last few years that are equipped from the factory with ABS have the front/rear brake balance control programmed into the ABS software. If that software is disabled (by disconnecting the ABS system) the brakes revert to the mechanical front/rear balance which is typically heavily front biased to keep the driver from spinning.

 

Having been involed in the modificaiton of braking systems on a Honda S2000 and an Acura NSX it was very difficult and expensive to better the balance and performance of the stock ABS. We did learn of a non-obtainable ABS valving and controller assembly for the NSX that was one of the secrets used by the World Challenge GT team.

[crazy280]

As others have said, it does depend on the programming. For example, the el-cheapo grocery getter is going to have the cheapest, simplist ABS unit installed (probably with a crappy 8 bit chip and probably only control front to rear bias, and be programed for safety only). And most people's experiences are with these systems, leaving a bad impression on the driver. However, like JohnC said, the high end units on an NSX or S2000 for example, are very good. You can't compare a Chevy Cavalier's ABS with a Ferrari 360 Modena's ABS.