JMortensen Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 A sleeve? How would that work? I could see a 5/8" threaded end with a 3/4" OD sliding into the arm, is that what you meant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 A sleeve? How would that work? I could see a 5/8" threaded end with a 3/4" OD sliding into the arm, is that what you meant? No, I was thinking it might be possible to use a spherical bearing holder in place of the stock rubber busing. And the stock arm would fit into this. I don't know if the sizes would work or not. Just a rough idea of a possible way this would work with little to no machining. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 The only thing I can think of that fits your description is one of the firewall mounted monoballs that would be used for a steering shaft. There are some on this page: http://www.stockcarproducts.com/steer5.htm Are you referring to something else? If there is such an animal and it has a 2" OD that might save me a lot of trouble... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 What I'm trying to find on their stupid site is a adapter for building your own lower control arm. It uses a spherical bearing with snap rings to hold it in. You weld these onto a tube and then you can make your own LCA. I even have a few of them but I can't seem to find them to measure them up. Argh, I'll keep looking. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 As has been discussed the outer heims joints are going to take more load than the inners' date=' so size of the joints shouldn't really be an issue. [/quote'] Jon, Why do you say this? If there a link to another discussion that explains this? I would have thought the opposite in that the inners must also counteract the horizontal rotation of the LCA due to acceleration and braking. The force acts through a moment arm (the LCA). Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted September 12, 2006 Author Share Posted September 12, 2006 We would need to measure the arm. The 5.5" of outer bushing spacing verses the 16 or so inches of inner bushing spacing, and then take into consideration wheel offset for the outer bushings, more so than for the inner bushings and then the distance of the tire to the centerline of the inner bushings. I'm sure there is even more to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Terry, Exactly! The outers are also overcoming the twisting force of the strut, but with a shorter moment arm (both causing and reactionary). This is why I was curious if there was already an analysis of this out there. Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 I should state again for the record that I really suck at math, but I thought that the diagram of the forces and such from post #73 was saying that the farther the rod ends are apart the less load they take, and the rod ends are definitely farther apart on the inside end of the control arm than the outside end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted September 12, 2006 Author Share Posted September 12, 2006 Correct Jon. Strictly from that point of view, there is less force applied to the inner than the outer, but where the kicker is is in the length of the CA (centerline of inner bushings to the contact patch of the tire). The longer this distance, the larger the lever is to twist the inner bushings out of position. On a wheel with a lot of negative offset, the same condition exists for the outer bushings. The further outboard the contact patch is from the centerline of the outer bushings, the larger the lever is to twist these bushing out of place. But a highly positive offset wheel will help reduce this twisting force on the outer bushings. Unfortunately, the changes in offset will affect the twisting action more on the outer bushings than the inner bushings. Without doing a lot of measuring, I am going to assume the forces on inner and outer will be about equal. I say this because a neutral offset wheel will present a certain amount of force on the two narrowly spaced outer bushings (spaced only 5.5") apart, and the ratio of those distances may (MAY) be close to the ratio of the inner bearing spacing-to-contact patch distance as well. Just a guess without the car to measure with. Hence, reducing the spacing between bushings can have some troubling effects as this increases the ratio or lever action on those bushings. Not anything showing values, but the drawing below shows this relationship: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Damn I love your illustrations Terry! Measuring on the rear strut sitting next to my desk here, it looks like there is about 5.5" from the spindle pin hole to the flange for the wheel. That coupled with the wheel offset should tell you where C is, correct? The rod end holes were 7 1/8" apart, I remember that. The center of the front inner bushing to rear inner bushing is ~18" and the distance from the inner pivot to the outer is ~14.5". I think that gives all the values needed, except the shape isn't a perfect isosceles triangle, don't know if that messes up the ratios or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Thanks Cary, I found those parts! http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp3.htm I called SCP and they said OD was between 1 3/4 and 1 7/8. I know the stock bushing is 1.580, so that should mean that there is enough meat on there to turn it down on a lathe, which gives the lips front and back to hold the sleeve in place. The issue is -- HOW DEEP IS THE SNAP RING GROOVE??? If it is too deep then when the housing is turned down there might not be enough meat there. I don't see another way around that snap ring groove issue, unless the frame were hacked to to allow the full size monoball holder to be installed, then the whole thing could be welded in place. Hey, that might not be such a bad idea!!! The issue then becomes one of changing the monoballs. If the 3/4" stud idea that Terry had was used, then I don't think the monoballs could ever be changed. I suppose if this concept was married to the 5/8" tube adapters, maybe bolts from the outside could be used. And THAT seems like it might just be a viable solution... So to recap. Cut then ends off of the control arm. Get 4 more 5/8" threaded tube ends. Turn the tube ends down to .75 OD, weld into the control arms. Cut frame rails to install monoball holders. Make new straps to hold down the monoball holders, and weld it all together into the frame (I guess in the back this will be more modification to the bushing clamps on the rear toe adjuster). Run 5/8" bolts through the rod end reducers (already part of the monoball holder assy sold by SCP). Also their monoball holder part has a shaft length of 2.5", so that might need to be cut down, but cutting the monoball holder and the bushings down to the correct length should be pretty simple I think... Am I onto something... or on something??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Actually, the sleeves wouldn't really need to be welded in. If you could find a piece of tubing that had the same ID as the holder's OD, that could be cut in 1/2 lengthwise and that piece could be welded in, and the other half used to make the strap. Then the whole thing could be taken in and out. Furthermore, by moving the threaded tube ends in to the right spot, the holders could be used as is with no needed mods to the bushings and all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Thanks Cary, I found those parts! http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp3.htm[/url'] I called SCP and they said OD was between 1 3/4 and 1 7/8. I know the stock bushing is 1.580, so that should mean that there is enough meat on there to turn it down on a lathe, which gives the lips front and back to hold the sleeve in place. Why would you turn it? Why not alter the front crossmember the bolt-on rear pieces to deal with the larger diameter? I think I'd be inclined to weld the collar to them anyway. That would seem a lot cheaper when you don't have access to a lathe. Good find BTW, I knew I saw them but I wasn't having luck without their catalog. My next trick would be to find these in my shop ... Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Why would you turn it? Why not alter the front crossmember the bolt-on rear pieces to deal with the larger diameter? I think I'd be inclined to weld the collar to them anyway. That would seem a lot cheaper when you don't have access to a lathe. Good find BTW' date=' I knew I saw them but I wasn't having luck without their catalog. My next trick would be to find these in my shop ...[/quote'] Looks like you stopped reading when I was talking about turning them... The only issue I have with welding them is that it might distort the housing so that the monoball wouldn't go in smoothly anymore. I think I read about that type of problem on the do-it-yourself dual master cylinder and balance bar piece. They tell you to weld it in, but then they also say that the monoball probably won't fit into the sleeve afterwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 These are generally thick enough for that not to be too big an issue. And on my balance bar sleave I used a hone to fix it. In the past I've used some pieces of aluminum round stock I have to control the warping. I don't know if any of this helps or not. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 If that's the case, then this might just be the answer. Some minor machine work on the threaded tube ends and some fairly simple welding, and that should be it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 I went ahead and ordered these suckers up. Weird too, because the sizes are 2.310 and 1.925. I ran out and measured my G Machine bushings and they are 2 3/8" and 1 7/8" so the length of the sleeves is damn near perfect too. I got the units with the monoballs just cause I figured that would be easier to mock up. I'll have to take a look at the monoballs themselves and see if I really want to run them or if they should be replaced with something a little better before the car hits the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted September 13, 2006 Author Share Posted September 13, 2006 Jon, could you send us some photos of these parts when they arrive? I've got questions that don't seem to be answered by the vendors photo are site information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Sure. They're on your side of the country so it will probably be a week at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Got a present from UPS today! Monoball holders! I'm headed out of town this weekend and won't get a chance to do anything with these for a couple weeks, but here's what I can tell you right now. These look like they were machined from a 1.75" OD .215" wall thickness piece of pipe or tube. They are just like we had supposed we would make the adapters back on page 1 or 2 of this thread, except they back cut the step inside (saving weight???). The monoball slides in and then is retained by a snapring. The monoball is not a tight fit in the holder, so beware of that if you're super anal. I don't think it's really going to matter alignment-wise, and if it makes noise in my racer I don't care. Dimensions for the sleeves are 1.930 and 2.25, and the dimensions for the monoballs with the reducers are 2.25 and 2.53 respectively. So that means that the spacers are different lengths with respect to the housings. Now I just have to sit and look at these until I go on vacation... you can too: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.