Looking for Engine Advice PLEAAAAASE!

[jl87ma]

well i have been thinking and thinking about the what engine i want to put in my 240z. i have come to the conclusion to that i want an engine that can rev high like up to 11,000 and engine that can take some abuse(by this i mean constant high revving (in the 5 to 7,000 range). I want it to be N/A because i want it to have individual throttle boddies damn i get excited just thinking about the sound. Damn im already getting off track. I would also like it to be a four cylinder or 6 is ok but i would like four preferably and also be available here in the US or in JAPAN BUT i would greatly prefer the US because i want parts to be accessible. I also want it to be a japanese engine like nissan or toyota no rotaries.

OH and i changed my mind about doing the rb30/rb26 to expensive and i dont want turbo and 2 expensive, and if something breaks there goes mission impossible to go and find parts.

THANKS

Since this is a new post i know many more people will read this post than my last photoshop and rb30 post. I will like to thank those that replied to my post and helped me give me an idea of how the work equip 01 wheels would look. I really appreciate it. I also want to thank those that replied to my rb30 post and i apologize for reposting it twice i was not sure if the post had gone through.

Thanks once again.

[TheNeedForZ]

None of the engines I list here rev to 11000rpm but comes very close to the mark.

 

Hyabusa engine like this here

 

http://www.super7cars.com/Super7_GSX1300R_specs.html

http://www.super7cars.com/Super7_Hayabusa_engine.html

 

Or if you read december's Sport Compact Car (magazine) you'll find a great article about a 10000rpm n/a K20 engine with ITB.

 

Others will tell you they are "2 expensive" and not practical. But this is a free country and it's your money/time.

[oinojo]

i would guess the F20C from a s2000 might suite you well, or a fully built 4AGE 20V.

[vashonz]

Why do you want it to rev to 11000rpm? Just because?

For enough $ you can make any engine rev that high.

I think the only engines that will rev to near that are from motorcycles (my '05 R1 redlines at ~12500), almost all sport bikes have ITBs and 6 speed sequential transmissions. The biggest hurdle will be adding reverse to the bike engine, there are companies that make reverse boxes.

ITBs and forced induction can work together. There was a discussion on here recently talking about lagless turbos and ITBs. Also every turbo R1 I have ever read about uses the stock throttle plates.

[Gollum]

Well, the integra type R was redlined at 9k from factory but I've taken stock motors to 11 ... It's actually really fun , but I bet they can't take that abuse for long.

 

My theory is always that if a motor can widthstand 10-11k it can take 8k all day long, wich is why I don't like racing V8s, because I always feel like I'm wearing the engine too much. But I guess physics dictates that the higher the revs the more the wear, but I guess there's always exeptions to that.

 

I think honda motors are the highest reving 4 banger right out of the box, but the only good one that comes in RWD is the F20C. A B18 or B16 would be killer, but no RWD application.

 

I'd venture to say you could get most 4 cylinders to rev to 11k with a little work. Some motors will require custom pistons for strength, but it would be wise to go with as light as interals as possible. The lighter the rotating mass the easier it will want to rev. Custom pistons (forged) can be much lighter and stronger than stock pistons, so it's worth the money. If you start with a motor that doesn't have rockers then to get rid of some headache there to begine with. Otherwise most motor's rocker setup will need to be upgraded to widthstand high RPM. But on most motors carful attention to cam and valve springs must be taken.

 

And rotory motors... Well, I don't call them "high rev" motors. If you're running on at 12k then the rotors are only moving at 1/3 speed of that (4k), whereas in a 4 cylinder going 12k the pistons is actually reciprocating every RPM. Pistons move much faster, period. But that doesn't mean they're bad motors, that's a different discussion entirely.

 

I've seen NA RB25 motors with ITB setups and they're pretty insane. Still not the greatest RB setup but a well built motor is still to be feared.

 

A 4AGE setup might not yield much HP, but you havn't specified how much power you're looking for.

 

Using a bike motor might be nice, but I'd worry about the tranny. You couldn't pay me to use a bike tranny becuase they're not designed, rated, or tested to be used in a car. Much more weight being pushed = More stress on the tranny. You'd have to mate it to a diffferent tranny for sure. But some of them like the busa, are capable of insane power, and rev like no motor you'll ever see in a production car.

 

In the end I think the F20C would be the :key word: easiest :key word: motor to use. It revs high from factory, it's RWD (with a great 6 speed), and it's one of the highest HP/per liter motors on production cars (NA that is). And ON3GO is looking at doing the swap himself, so you two could help eachother out.

[jl87ma]

well i want to have an engine that has abetween 500 to 650 horsepower. I know that the f20c is a high revving engine but its honda and i would prefer a toyota or nissan. I am also concerned with torque. I want good torque to be able to take off. The car will be a daily driver a street performance car.

[oinojo]

not to mention the 6 speed honda tranny prolly has the best shifter/synchros i have ever driven with

[vashonz]

So basically all you're looking for is a 4 cylinder engine that revs to 11000, makes 650 hp, has low end torque, and is naturally aspirated?

Oh, and is less expensive than an RB26.

My suggestion would be to read a little, then read alot more. From what I've read this engine does not exist. Do a search, see what other people have done.

 

Why 500-650hp? Is that a number you pulled out of thin air? Do you have anything to compare that to?

[mtcookson]

in the n/a world the saying "there's no replacement for displacement" will always hold true.

 

that kind of power n/a would require a decent amount of displacement... i don't believe you could go any lower than a 6 cylinder and even then that kind of power would be pretty hard to get.

 

not to mention revving that high makes engines much less reliable. i think going by the rpm's you want and the power you want, you're looking into a pure racing engine that wouldn't have any street driving ability. you'd be rebuilding it all the time most likely.

 

with that kind of power you're either going to be looking at a forced induction engine or if you absolutely want to go n/a, a V8 that won't rev nearly as high as you want.

[Guest nick_25]

i would say you need to do A LOT more homework, the motorcycle engine will not work, we tried it in a McClaren M6 kit car, and no worky, the engine is only ment to pull around about 600 lbs, not 2600 pounds, no torque either, and once you change to that set-up, there is no turning back

 

as far as that mystical motor you are looking for, you might as well just buy a formula F1 motor for about 1.5 million dollars...i believe they run about 18,000 RPMs and run about 900 HP in a V10, i think i remember reading something to the effect that the injectors shot something like 26,000 times a second... so that gives you a cost comparsion of what it would take to get a motor to do that

 

plus, why a 4cyc?....should'nt that be soly for imports almost, i would not put anything smaller than a 6cyc in a datsun, its kinda degrading...lol, but that is just me...unless it was a 500+HP 4cyc

[Gollum]

That's alot of power. Have you ever driven a 500hp car? I can't explain how freakin' fast a 10 sec del sol is. It's more power than you should really need unless you're drag racing. On road courses and autox hp really isn't the battle, suspension is. And the cost difference between a track only setup and track/street setup is amazing. If you want a REAL race suspension that doesn't knock your fillings out you're looking at WAY too much money. Anything that's cheep that's "track/street" is a compromise of some sort. Maybe not bad, but surely not the best track suspension normally.

 

I personally wouldn't build a street 4 cylinder over 400hp (except a few like the SR), mayne not even over 300 for most 4 bangers. For the HP you're looking for (wich is ALOT) you could look at the 3uz-fe or the 1uz-fe. Very hard to find quality parts due to poor a/m support but they're lighter than most V8s, they can be made to rev high, and have enough displacement to reach your goals NA. The stock internals can take 600hp easy, even more if it's the 3uz-fe. You'd need extensive porting (heads and intake), headers (of course), and bigger injectors I assume, and cam for sure. Maybe even a bit more. If you really wanted to rev to 11k you'd have to pull the motor apart and grind down as much of the rotating mass as you can(go with a good machine shop, money there means less money later). You'd also need a tranny, since these motors came with autos 99% of the time. A company in aussieland makes a supra bell housing for it, and while those are great trannies they're not cheep.

 

The motor would be cheep, but work would be expensive past intake & exhast since to port the heads you'll have to bring it to someone who has a flow bench since there isn't really specialists for this motor. Mounts would have to be fabricated, wich if you're not doing youself can get expensive. The oil pan on these motors are huge, so I don't know what kind of work needs to happen there.

 

I think that 'if' HP is your priority go with a V8, it'll be dirt cheep compared to most other options at that HP. LS1 or LS2 would be great options, very easy to get to 500 hp.

 

If revs are your main concern, go with a RB26.

 

If weight were your main concern.... all aluminium V8, inline 4 with a well mounted motor & turbo system, or a high compression aluminium V6.

 

There would be my options for these goals. I'm not saying they're all powerful, just my take on what I'd do.

 

Personally I'm almost 75% set on a 1uz-fe and maybe putting the 3uz internals in it. I should be able to get it to 400hp and still pass smog easily (it'll be smogged as a L28, don't ask). If I want to go farther after that I'll probly run different smog cams and i'm pretty sure I could get plenty of HP reliably with the motor. But there are a few things that make this swap possible for me. 1. It's cheep initial investment. 2. I can do most of the fabircation myself (with help from many people I know), wich saves money 3. There are donor cars everywhere where I live. I see probly at least 10 SC400s a day wich make perfect donors. A wreaked one can be had for cheep.

 

 

If money wasn't a problem, and I wanted the ultimate street/track car, I'd go with the new ford cammer motor.

 

If you just brought your desired HP down a bit you'd have TONS of motors as options for what you want. Me and rudypoochris had a great conversation last night (online) about how high reving motors are really street friendly becuase they don't have any power down low, so you're able to stay away from the high HP part of the spectrum where gas is consumed the most and your also able to actaully drive your car in the rain

 

But they're also harder to make great track cars. One of the fastest RB26 track motors was only around 500hp but made insane torque, wich meant coming out a turn the motor pulled alot harder to help get speed back up. Generally high rev motors don't have tons of torque.

 

Idealy, the pefect motor for me would have liniar power until 4k where torque and HP would jump and stay flat till a 9-10k drop off. That way I could drive it on the street below 4k easy and at the track I'll never go below 4k. And if you needed the power on the street 4k isn't hard to get it. But such a motor doesn't exist.

[tannji]

I have agree with the consensus here.... your budget and the requirements you list are not feasible.

I think Gollum is on the right track with his 1UZ and 3UZ recommedation, where you have to go V8. If you really want to go smaller, go with the little brother of the 1UZ... the 2.7 liter 3RZ-fe. Very strong stock internals, can be built to rev VERY well, and there are existing examples from the 600HP range all the way up to 1500HP. Compromise is that you have to turbo, and it wont be exactly cheap, either.

[auxilary]

I suggest you stop watching Initial D.

[Z-Gad]

I have posted this link before, but it has been a while...

400hp street honda?

http://www.sdsefi.com/tech400.htm

[Guest nick_25]

I suggest you stop watching Initial D.

 

HAHAHAHA!!!!

funny

[Gollum]

Good read Z-gad, but before the import market really exploded I help build and maintain a 10 sec del sol. It wasn't sound legal, and he used slicks at the track. It was a high 11 low 12 sec car with street tires. Best run was in the 10.8 range. He also ran full interior trim with racing seats using the stock rails.

 

It was a B16 turbo with way too much nitrous for it's own good. Guy once melted the pistons on the freeway being stupid. When we rebuilt it we only bored it as much as nececcary. How many 10 year olds have you met that can say they helped design a solid 11 sec 4 banger? This was long before NOS (comany) existed so it was a fully custom install. We spend a good weekend debating how to best modify the intake.

 

I bet if the three of us got back together to build another honda we could make a 9 sec honda. Maybe not street legal, but close enough to drive it on the street 8) . I know for 100% fact we could make a 9 sec honda that would still be a good daily driver, and I wouldn't be able to say the same about most other cars, because that much HP in a RWD car is usually hard to manage on the street.

 

The idea behind the article was spot on though. There are many guys that just read tha magazines, or as aux pointed out watch initial D, and think they actually know something. Maybe I'll be the first to say it... I can build a 11k street car and I don't know s***, so if these people want to act like they know something there's something wrong with them in the head.

 

That being said I loved the intial D live action move. Overall I think the initial D franchise is highly entertaining, but taken too seriously by most. I personlly thing the live action movie was ten times more entertaining than either of the Fn'F movies.

[Guest 81na ZX]

This was long before NOS (comany) existed so it was a fully custom install. We spend a good weekend debating how to best modify the intake.

 

FYI - Nitrous Oxide Systems (NOS) was formed in 1978 and bought by Holley in the mid-90s The Del Sol was only a pipe-dream in 78

[Gollum]

thanks for the correction.

 

Ahem, correction: NOS wasn't widely availible and thus everything on the street was DIY.

 

Is that better?

 

And to be honest nitrous ready manifolds did become popular till the late 90's. If there was anything out there it sure wasn't availble locally.

[mtcookson]

Idealy, the pefect motor for me would have liniar power until 4k where torque and HP would jump and stay flat till a 9-10k drop off. That way I could drive it on the street below 4k easy and at the track I'll never go below 4k. And if you needed the power on the street 4k isn't hard to get it. But such a motor doesn't exist.

 

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

 

 

I swear if they ever allowed nuclear batteries [that were safe, which shouldn't be hard] you could make an incredible electric car. That would be very fun.

[Guest nick_25]

yea, i've always though they would never be able to match the quickness and HP of gas motors unless they used something like nuclear power, but looks like they are on there way

 

of course it would be funny to see the junkyards in 100 years when all the junkyards are a nuclear hazardious waste aeras