Guest kylerichardbutler Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 The reason I ask are all mechanics crooks is because I had my Z car looked at today and once again the guy charged me for $150 and couldn't find out what the problem is. I am just fed up with this crap. I even specifically asked this guy to hook it up to his scope and exhaust anylizer, and he didn't even do that. And now I am in the same possition as last time when I got ripped off for $450 by a different shop. Does any one know if I have any options here as far as demanding that either he run the tests that I ask for or I don't pay. Of course I signed a slip saying that it was going in for a diagnosis with a two hour limit but I am guesing that it says nothing about having it put on the scope. So as far as I know I am bound legally to pay this guy even though he did exactly what I did not want him to do, and that is to try and figure what is wrong with my car and not just bleepin figure it out. I meen come on there are only so many things it could be. Kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperKid Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 As a tech in training I say, no, not all techs are crooks. There are just alot of bad ones that ruin the reputations of others. First off, if the guy spent two hours and couldn't figure out the problem, he isn't very good. If you asked him to perform specific tasks, and he didn't, then I see no reason to pay him. If he did things you didn't want him to do, definetly don't pay. He should have contacted you and asked permission to perform specific tasks. If the guy would of used a scope, I'd be willing to bet he could find the problem (or atleast eliminate possible problems. What year/model is your Z? If it's an early one, the guy is definetly a moron. There are hardly any electronics to fail, so it's more than likely something mechanical. What sort of symptoms are there? I would seek legal advice from a lawyer if it's worth your time. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kylerichardbutler Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 YES! Thats what I am saying. I think this guy could possiblly be a moron. I have a 1974 260Z and there isn't much to it. He claims that the dual weber carbs are mounted backwards and that is the first step of action to take. He also claims that it is jeted wrong, without putting the exhaust anylizer on it I might add. Is there any way I can take my car back with out paying him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest norm[T12SDSUD] Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Man you could have bought a good set of SU carbs and had the Z running excellent by this time!! Those dual webers simply SUCK ***. I am speaking from experience. Back in 1989 I had them jetted and tuned perfectly by an excellent mechanic and those sumbitches just sucked azz. I sold them and put my SU's back on and learned how to tune those babies to run just right!! I suggest the same course of action for you. Later,Norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessZ Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 There may be some type of better business bureau in your phone book. This is a kind of agency that specializes in giving businesses like this a hard time. Once you find this bureau use it as a threat to get what you need. Also you sometimes have to get really pissed to get what you're entitled to. Some people just relate better when they're yelled at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savageskaterkid Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I had a very similar problem, it was my Z's last voyage. I took it to an alignment shop, and said I want it aligned, i'll be back tommorrow. Got a call and came there later that day, they said they put it on the lift and my frame and floors were to far gone, and they didn't even try and align it. They chargered me $30 to put the car on the lift, wich wasn't part of the deal. I said align it, didn't do it-and they charged me-I can't stand mechanics, I do all my own work now. The mechanic b4 that was told to change my injectors, well, about 900 dollars later, they decided that my fuel injectors were bad, so they told me i needed them replaced and I just said "Really, you guys are smart, I told you that 900 dollars ago and you already figured it out, wow, you guys are smart" Then I brought it in at a later time to fix my strut that i broke, when it was finnally done, i went to pick it up, I should have got it on friday, but didn't have time, so i had to wait till monday. Jackass mechanics left my car in the middle of the lot, and first thing monday morning, the car got backed into reccesing my quarter panel about 6-10 inches. And they refused to give me a rentel car because(EXACT WORDS)"It is not our fault that you have nothing to drive"-I sure as hell didn't wreck the car in there lot, so its sumhow my fault..............done..... I won't deal with a mechanic again-ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5foot2 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 "I have a 1974 260Z and there isn't much to it." "I meen come on there are only so many things it could be." Then why are you having this guy look at it in the first place? Do you not have the tools, no space to work on it, don't know how to fix it? What magic did you expect the scope to do on a pre computer car? It sounds to me maybe you didn't like the answers the man gave you. I recommend you pay the man and mark it up as another good reason to learn to fix your stuff yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kylerichardbutler Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 honestly it does have some form of a computer and it is called the ignition transistor unit. It controls the spark via coil pick up. and the exhaust anylizer would have told him what was wrong with my carbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ-E Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I agree with Norm on the weber down drafts. I had them and with proper tuning from a VW guru that is used to those on many a VW motor, he finally told me that I sould go with another carburetor as these just are working well enough to get the car just right. While they will work and they will make the car run fairly well, they arent really good for a Z. Id get myself some used SU's and rebuild them. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest norm[T12SDSUD] Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Try advancing your ignition timing 10 degrees from where it is set at now and I bet your hesitation will be much better if not possibly go away altogether,although as long as you run the Webers that may not be the case. Get some 70-72 SU carbs. Later,Norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here comes trouble Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Years ago, I figured the best way to approach an auto repair shop was bent over pants down walking backwards prepared for some parts changing repairs or change parts until it runs right. I began buying two of the same kind of car. Almost never was the same part wore out on both cars. I could change parts from the running car to the non running car until I found the problem Learned to be a halfassed mechanic that way in the drive way with both hoods open on Saturday and Sunday. Now out of habit, I will just raise the hood on two cars if I am only working on one. (LOL) Actually over the years I found a good electrical auto repair shop and even a mechanical shop but still just about endangers me to take a car in for repair because they call the police when I get out bent over walking backwards with my pants down. KY or vaseline ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 ok... I have very little personal experience with mechanics... I successfully rebuilt the manual tranny in my 1975 Toyota Corona station wagon when I was 17... With absolutely no help from my father or anyone else... just the Haynes manual. but I do have a friend who owns a shop here in Cary NC... Happy Japs... and he tells me stories about customers who defy all common sense and logic... Soo from a mechanic's perspective... a lot of customers expect more than they should from their chosen mechanic... It is very hard for a mechanic to decide exactly what needs replacement and what should be left alone on an antique car... They need to address problems as they see them... not the way the customer sees them... you would be amazed at peoples' "self diagnosis" of their cars.... for instance "It is smoking...please replace the muffler" kind of crap. The best thing for you is to find a mechanic that you can communicate with. He should listen to you.. and he needs to have confidence in your ability to self diagnose problems... only then can you expect to take it in to shop and get specific items replaced on an as needed basis. Really... if you know what the problems are as they arise... then why in the hell would you even take it to a mechanic... Diagnosis is 75% of the work.. Personally... I take my cars to the shop whenever they need Tires, inspection... or for air conditioning repair...that is it... Ohh... and Mechanics are NOT the place to get custom electrical work done... that is really asking too much... electrical work is a whole different profession... you need to find an auto electrical specialist... or a Datsun Z car specialist if you want electrical work done... automotive electrical systems are entirely different than "normal" electrical systems... for a lot of reasons.. including safety and fire concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 its just a matter of finding the right mechanic. they are out there....now bodyshops and painters, thats an entirely different problem. I have yet to find a trustworthy painter. I will second they comment on the weber carbs. they might work beautifully on old BMWs and VWs, but the suck on Z cars for some reason, ditch them and buy a set of early round top SU's. they are so incredibly simple and easy to work on, you can really set them and forget them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Not all mechanics are crooks, but on the other hand not all mechanics know their *** from a hole in the ground either. Trust me, I was once a 17 year old high school graduate who had just won the SoCal division of the Chrysler Troubleshooting Contest working as a mechanic. That contest win gave me the impression that I knew WTF I was talking about. In retrospect I think I would have had trouble distinguishing my *** from a hole in the ground at that point in my life. Even when I was 25 and working as a Porsche mechanic, my knowledge of different car systems was severely lacking compared to what it is now, and I still hope to one day know enough to feel like an "expert". Sounds to me like you need to find somebody who isn't an idiot to fix the car. Also try and find a shop that will diagnose the problem free of charge, or at least agree to only charge for the diagnosis if they are actually able to fix the problem. Also I'd like to third the roundtop SU suggestion. Regardless of how well the DGVs are tuned they aren't going to as good as properly tuned SU's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I gotta say, Superkid, you definately are "in training"! If you did every hairbrained test a customer demanded you will find out VERY quickly you not only waste YOUR time, but the customer who "knows it all" will be JUST as P.O. when it's not fixed at the end of the day. For what the guy says, if he says your Webers are mounted backwards, that's a visual thing---if he SEES IT then there is no reason to do any more till THAT is fixed. I can tell you right now IT'S JETTED WRONG. All the DGV kits were. They are marginal performers, and DO need rejetting, especially on tired old engines---they run rich. And if it's not a smog-legal california kit, I can WARRANT they are jetted FAR too rich. I don't need a scope to tell ME that, nor do I need an exhaust analyzer. Put it on a dyno with a five-gas why don't you? That will run you 150 and HOUR, and be about as usefull. Before telling the technician his job, why not try fixing the MECHANICAL portions of your vehicle first. As a technician, I would NOT put diagnostic meters like the exhaust analyzer on to verify a bad condition till there was a snowball's chance to be repaired. If I saw mechanical problems, I would say they need to be repaired first, before any more in-depth diagnostics were done. What would the scope tell you? That you are firing on each cylinder? What voltage you are firing at? I mean, what is the point of putting it on the scope----what is the car doing that makes you think putting in on a magic box will tell you anything an experienced technican can't figure out by listening, observing, and doing simple tests with his hand tools. This is only common sense. You have to have it mechanically correct, FIRST, then get down to the details. The exhaust analyzer will NOT "tell you what is wrong with your carbs", it will just tell you what he ALREADY KNOWS: They are jetted rich. Instead of coming here complaining about trying to get your car back without paying a guy for the time he has into it---why don't you post the PROBLEMS you are having. Had you done that first, you probably would be $600 richer right now. Or at least have carbs mounted correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Isn't there a Z specialist in Everett? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I would heartily agree with jm's latest post: Find a Z-Specialist nearby and use THEM, don't go to a general repair station. Guys who do bread and butter LOF's and Late Model work rarely have the time and inclination to deal with tuner cars (which yours is), or early models (again like yours!). Most of the "seasoned" technicians eventually get PO at dealing with shop politics or whatever and move in with other like minded individuals to work on specialty stuff. It's the difference between going to an M.D. for a Toothache. They will give you an Rx for painkillers to the end of time, but eventually they may or may not refer you to a DDS to take care of the REAL problem! When you look back, in retrospect you think: "Why didn't I go to the Dentist in the first place?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennysgreen280zt Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Yeah, there is Z sport in Everett, and Z specialties in Snohomish. Ive bought parts from both, but never had any work done at either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 WHy don't you post... 1. what your problems are... 2. what the mechanic did that cost XXX$ 3. Explain to us what the orientation of your Weber/Cannon dual DGAVconversion is. The way things often work out... A mechanic replaces an item on an old car... several other items had to be removed or loosened... a little while after the repair was made the car begins to malfunction again. When the customer takes it back to the shop they blame the mechanic for faulty work... The mechanic cannot be held responsible for repeated failures of old components on an old vehicle... unless you can prove he was negligent. you will never be able to prove anything with an old car you know little about. It is the mechanic's responsibility to carefully check each system associated with the repair BEFORE they begin work... as the work is performed the mechanic should make decisions as to whether additional components need to replaced... He should inform the customer of the additional repairs as they are discovered. This way everyone has covered their bases. What often happens is that mechanics avoid informing "odd" customers about the need for additional repairs... for obvious reasons...the car may be in need of a restoration, the customer has no money, the customer has no sense, etc... or they just end up doing part of the work and quitting whenever they run over the estimate... Communication is KEY!... you can only tell him where it hurts...it is up to your mechanic to fix the problem... Restoring an old car is best left to a loving owner... Carby jetting takes research and parts sources... You have an entire forum here to help you rejet your carbys... Your mechanic is dreading the time he will have to spend making phone calls and seaching the web for Weber parts sources and information on what parts to order... there is time spent waiting for parts... sometimes it takes several orders over weeks to get the right jets in hand and installed. I would assume a mechanic would rebuild the carbys and reset float levels and road test the vehicle bofore any jets were changed. I recently installed a set of Weber DCOEs... I purchased another 240Z and they were on it and running relatively well... all I did was swap them over to another 240Z I own... WOW... was that ever a job... $500 in parts alone to complete... est 16 hours labor over 4 weeks. Extras included crappy warped header.. had to pull first gasket, remove header and have it leveled and reinstall in/ex.. with extra clipped washers where the flange was ground thinner... that alone was 4 hours of BS labor. I port matched head/manifold and manifold/carbs.. I also installed a vacuum manifold to all runners... I had to replace the "soft mount" rings be cause they were 40mm in a 45mm application... the new mounts were much thinner and caused interference with the cold start housings... I had to grind the manifold in several places for clearance... this took a week because I had to order new mounts the first day I began work on the project... I fiddled with the porting while I waited on parts. The jetting took me 3 cycles of ordering parts... The new application was on a mildly prepped 2.4l... the old application was a race prepped 2.8l... the "choke"/venturis were 36mm.. WAYYYY too big for the 2.4l... I tried 30mm first because I found some used... too small... I ordered 34mm... they are just right for track but still too big for street... each time I tried new venturis I had to go through the whole process of rejetting... I now have a $400 tacklebox full of jets and venturis I am not using.... and I could never have paid for anyone to do this job... It would not be worth it... with carbs included you would be looking at $3k.. assuming you purchased used carbys for $1000 or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tony78_280z Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I have to say, if you pay $150.00 for a diagnosis, you better get a damn diagnosis. You wouldn't pay McDonald's for a burger and not get your burger! Regardless of how long they looked at the burger, and how much they charge per hour for the labor involved in the burger. On that note, Autozone/Advanced Auto Parts guys are far more stupid. Walk up to the counter and ask for some Holley Jets and see if they don't ask "What year is that off of?" They simply can't do anything without that computer, and that includes turning around to look at the display rack behind them. On another occasion, an Advanced employee blatantly said, "We don't know anything about fixing cars." I replied with "Yeah, about that..." I then hinged my mouth shut and walked away. There are several good mechanics in StL that I take my Z to when I get stumped. (not so much lately ) Then there are alot that simply couldn't work on it. Mechanic 1. "Don't know nuttin about a Datsun" Mechanic 2. "He said it had a Chevy Motor in it." Mechanic 1. "Oh well bring 'er in then." Me. Just shop around and ask other Z / Import owners in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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