280Z28 Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 My steerings been meh and the cornering hasn't been what I've wanted in my Z. I'm setting up my Z for road race/show, and I'm ready to redo the suspension as soon as next month if possible (depending on if my situation changes). I only want to do this (the suspension) once, and I want it done right to drive and look spectacular. I've noticed that Arizona Z has a wide selection of parts that should not give me too much trouble in installation (compared to say, the build-your-own brake packages where I'd have to go find all the parts, whereas these are in a complete package). Here's my question: can I get the same or better performance from my car for cheaper and easier install than this setup? If not, sure it's pricey but like I said, I would be done and the car would be a beast at the track and on the showroom floor. Roadrace strut assembly on all 4 corners, 375lb springs, 6piston fronts upgrade, and slotted rotors Sway bar set 28mm front, 22mm rear Front and rear diff mounts and the finned cover brace (I already have an R200 LSD installed with the non-finned cover, the finned one is in the garage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I suggest you read all you can about those parts before you buy them. Spend hours searching. You'll be laying out a lot of cash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 I suggest you read all you can about those parts before you buy them. Spend hours searching. You'll be laying out a lot of cash... Even if I read a lot (and I have read a fair amount), I'll never know as much as many other people here, including some that have used those and other parts themselves. The problem is my method of affording them (work) keeps me from learning as much as y'all (no time). It's also very hard to find discussions about complete packages, just pieces here and pieces there. It'd be very valuable to me if the information was in one place. My hope with a narrow topic thread like this is the answer could be fairly short, even if it's just a straight list of parts you would go with in a similar situation. I can pay for the parts, and I can install them when I have them, but I'm not very (at all) comfortable making the decision on which ones to actually go with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I've looked extensively at the Arizona Z Car brake offerings and they are impressive. I've also looked at Modern Motorports and JSK Innovations (now defunct). My goal included daily driving the majority of my time so a functional e-brake was a must. I didn't want to depend on a line lock. For that reason I went with Willwood Superlites on the front (JSK or Arizona Z car) and the Modern Motorsport 240SX/300ZX conversion on the rear. Yes, the parts had to be sourced from all over but I got lists and recommendations from the adapter suppliers and it all went very smoothly. Don't forget that you'll need the ZX master cylinder if you don't already have it. I tried the system without it and it is not a happy place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 The car is registered as an antique so I'm not legally allowed to drive it except to shows and gatherings. I can leave the car in gear to hold it in place everywhere I know I go (that would be the garage). I could go with a line lock as well, that's not a big deal and I'll need it for the track anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom'sZ Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 There are two stickies on top of this forum called 'what are brake options for s30' and 'calling all racers for strut advice' or something. The brake options one pretty much runs down all the different brake options and the calling all racers one runs down all the strut options. They have part numbers and lots of great advice. I think JohnC of Beta Motorsports makes complete strut packages as well. Good luck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Just one point, concerning the swaybars. 28mm for the front is just too stiff considering the leverage involved. It will overwhelm the stock type mountings and tend to rip them out, plus it will virtually eliminate independant movement of each side of the suspension. 26mm max is a much better choice. Depending on how much power you have, with a 26mm front bar a 16-18mm rear bar is compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 375 lb springs and 28mm/22mm anti-roll bars are a lot of spriing to add to a 2,400 lb car with no aero. I suggest you back off a bit and run something like 225/250 lb springs and 25mm front and 19mm rear ARBs. Remember, this is a strut equipped car so the motion ratio is .98 front and .97 rear, unlike Mustangs and Camaros with a .5 motion ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 With those spring rates aren't you going to need an extensive cage? Any thing that stiff would be miserable on the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks a bunch guys. The car will never be driven on the street with the exception of going to get-togethers/shows, at most once a month. If it's miserable but serves a purpose, well that's what it's there for. When I get the suspension stuff in, the car is headed to a chassis shop in Dallas for a full cage inside, front-to-rear bracing underneath, and caged engine bay. Chassis stuffness won't be a problem. I don't want the car to show any roll in the corners except to the extent that it helps on-track performance. Power levels in the works are high triple figures at the wheels, but probably will stay in the mid-400's at the ground for the next year or so. I read through the brakes thread, and came to this conclusion: I'll get the same performance out of the MMS or the AZC setups = as good as it gets. Plus they are more-or-less the same price. I chose the AZC in the end because the 6 piston setup helps the awe factor for shows. Some of you probably really disagree on this decision to choose based on looks "bling factor," but I will be showing the car and I've seen how things like that make people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 375 lb springs and 28mm/22mm anti-roll bars are a lot of spriing to add to a 2,400 lb car with no aero. I suggest you back off a bit and run something like 225/250 lb springs and 25mm front and 19mm rear ARBs. Remember, this is a strut equipped car so the motion ratio is .98 front and .97 rear, unlike Mustangs and Camaros with a .5 motion ratio. What parts of the suspension are most responsible for keeping the car level in hard cornering? You suggested backing off the spring rates to 225/250. Is this what you would suggest for a road-race, track only car? My car won't be on the streets so I want the maximum track performance I can get, plus all the springs are about the same price. I'll likely use your recommendation straight up for spring rates based on your standing here in Z-racing world. Can you verify the rates you'd use for a purpose like mine? My car is a bit heavier; it's a 280Z and weighs in at a bit over 2700lbs right now. I'm having it completely caged which will add some to that (why must you be so far from me...I'd have you do that part); racing seats and aluminum heads will take some away. What sway bars would you use on my car? As in, where can I get them, I've only seen the AZC ones. I think I'm set on the brakes I'll use. And I've leaned away from the diff braces. So that leaves control arms, struts, springs, and sway bars for me to finish picking. Any major component I've left out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 What strut inserts come with the AZC assemblies? That will have a lot to do with what spring rates you run. Give Dave a call at AZC. I am sure he can recommend the appropriate struts and spring rates for what you want to do. For the amount of money you will be sending his way, I am sure he will be glad to talk to you. BTW, forget using a line lock as a parking brake. They simply do not work in that capacity. You will really only need one if you plan to drag race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 What strut inserts come with the AZC assemblies? That will have a lot to do with what spring rates you run. Give Dave a call at AZC. I am sure he can recommend the appropriate struts and spring rates for what you want to do. For the amount of money you will be sending his way' date=' I am sure he will be glad to talk to you. BTW, forget using a line lock as a parking brake. They simply do not work in that capacity. You will really only need one if you plan to drag race.[/quote'] Well, drag racing isn't the primary application of the car for sure. However, given some issues (medical) I will always face, drag racing is the only real racing I'll ever really be able to do. Even then, I won't be turning the times the car is really able to do, but I'd be doing it for fun. So yes, the car will be seeing the drag strip some and it's a 6speed so I'll need a line lock. I'll also give Dave a call later this week (busy day today). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 What parts of the suspension are most responsible for keeping the car level in hard cornering? You suggested backing off the spring rates to 225/250. Is this what you would suggest for a road-race, track only car? My car won't be on the streets so I want the maximum track performance I can get, plus all the springs are about the same price. There's a more fundamental question that needs to be answered before I can make any recommendations, but first some background. Any car can feel safe, stable, and good handling when driven at 8/10ths. As you go beyond the safe, stable, comfortable handling area you move closer to the edge of performance. How sharp that edge is determined by suspension setup and engine power. Higher horsepower sharpens the "at the limit" edge. Higher spring rates and a chassis that responds like lightning also sharpens that edge. A sharper edge means higher corner speeds, higher lateral Gs, higher speeds at the end of the straights, and faster lap times, but only if the driver can keep the car balanced on that sharp edge. If the driver does not have the skill, focus, and endurance to drive that car on a sharp, knife edge lap after lap, then the car will be slower around the track, difficult and uncomfortable to drive, and might even be dangerous. For a driver still bulding his on-track skill set, a car that is more forgiving at its limit will allow a more confident exploration of the performance edge. A mistake can be felt and corrected if the car is providing room for mistakes (a wdier edge). The driver has a chance to learn how to drive at the edge, lap after lap, for 30 minutes at a time. So, my question is, how good a road race driver are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 There's a more fundamental question that needs to be answered before I can make any recommendations' date=' but first some background. Any car can feel safe, stable, and good handling when driven at 8/10ths. As you go beyond the safe, stable, comfortable handling area you move closer to the edge of performance. How sharp that edge is determined by suspension setup and engine power. Higher horsepower sharpens the "at the limit" edge. Higher spring rates and a chassis that responds like lightning also sharpens that edge. A sharper edge means higher corner speeds, higher lateral Gs, higher speeds at the end of the straights, and faster lap times, but only if the driver can keep the car balanced on that sharp edge. If the driver does not have the skill, focus, and endurance to drive that car on a sharp, knife edge lap after lap, then the car will be slower around the track, difficult and uncomfortable to drive, and might even be dangerous. For a driver still bulding his on-track skill set, a car that is more forgiving at its limit will allow a more confident exploration of the performance edge. A mistake can be felt and corrected if the car is providing room for mistakes (a wdier edge). The driver has a chance to learn how to drive at the edge, lap after lap, for 30 minutes at a time. So, my question is, how good a road race driver are you?[/quote'] Due to life long medical reasons, I have no choice but leave the actual racing to someone else (it'd be a professional). By this point in my life, I've recognized that and it doesn't bother me. I have plenty of other things I'm good at that I'm not limited like that in. The closest I'll ever be to that edge is owning the car and watching someone with lots of experience use it to put the smack down on others. Those things don't stop me from building a race car though, and don't stop me from showing it. I'm actually working towards a PhD in Electrical Engineering for designing next generation electronics (engine control systems) for racing. So I turn the question: how good a road race driver can I find to drive the car for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 So I turn the question: how good a road race driver can I find to drive the car for me? Offer money... Actually, it will probably be difficult to find a good amateur road racer who is willing to spend the time working with you to get the car setup. Forget the pro drivers... Most amateur road racers have cars of their own and are trying to win in some series. Most also have day jobs so they are time limited. Getting their attention for a testing day is difficult because that's a day they could be spending on getting their own cars setup. Some things you can try: 1. Build the car for a specific, well known regional racing series. 2. Build the car to the highest race preparation standards you can afford. 3. Don't scrimp on safety equipment. 4. While building the car, hang around the track at the racing series you're focusing on to get to know who the hot shoes are. 5. While hanging around the track look over competitor's cars in the racing series you plan to compete in. 6. After you've been to at least four different races and the car is just about done, create your plan and budget for at least two full test days and for an entire year of racing. 7. Ask to talk with the hot shoes you've identified and any promising rookies that you might have spotted. 8. Present your plan to them and find out if they are interested. 9. Find out how much money (if any) they can contribute to the team effort. 10. Make a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 I'm not sure I want my car to see a season of racing. That might sound looney but hear me out. In the long run, the car's primary purpose will be selling itself. It's my development and testbed for the management system I'm building. I like it because it's unique, and it offers huge advantages such as emissions exemption, etc, while I develop the electronics. Due to the fact that I'm developing the electronics and I want to be the one to sell them in the end, I'm not looking for sponsorship in the build. It'd be awesome to try to have someone pay for it, but for me it'd probably be more hassle than it's worth. The car would make a fine demonstration with a racer driving it for a couple test days without any other cars on the track. A good performance there would build interest from outside. At the point the system was ready to see a full season of racing, a car would be built using my electronics for RACE with minimal concern for show. My car needs to "flaunt" this stuff. Bring interest by being different. That said, show is not only an important part of my build, but for time spent it will be the majority of what it does. Unfortunately, it's not all it has to do. There has to be something I can show for its performance, which means I'll need such things as demo videos and times that can be compared to other cars that ran the same course at different times. One of my key target markets is tuners. Many of their cars never see the track, just dynos and the street. They have money though, and my electronics have something to offer them that they don't already have. Things I'm working on to target them is things like the flashy paint and custom airbrushing. Also everything under the hood which won't be unveiled for a good while (you won't be disappointed ). The cage will be built with a modern feel such as wrapped to the shape of the interior. SCCA for example doesn't like that, but it's still very strong and looks better. Such a cage would keep the driver safe while appealing to a key audience, but would prevent the car from many racing classes. If in the end this car puts down monster numbers at the dyno, low numbers on the road [course] in time trials, and has enough bling to make people gawk and award it trophies, then the car will be a successful demonstration of an offering of everything my target audience wants in a car. I'm really curious about things like this: In time trials, how would a datsun equipped with this suspension and slicks perform next to the exotics? It's an "unfair comparison" since it's comparing a street car (exotics like the Porsche GT3 or F40/50) to a purpose built race car wearing slicks, but in the end, could the little old-school Datsun pull off times as good? Those things make buyers happy in their pants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 In time trials, how would a datsun equipped with this suspension and slicks perform next to the exotics? It's an "unfair comparison" since it's comparing a street car (exotics like the Porsche GT3 or F40/50) to a purpose built race car wearing slicks, but in the end, could the little old-school Datsun pull off times as good? Maybe. Mine came close, beating Vipers, Corvettes, and 911s, but a well driven GT3 or F40 would beat it easily. http://www.nsxfiles.com/otc_2004_day5.htm Expect to spend upwards of $50,000 to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z28 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 You ran in U3, but I'll be forced into U2 from the motor Is the suspension I listed above reasonable for entry into U2? Or is it just child's play at that point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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