JustinOlson Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 I left the secondary set of injectors in for these pictures. I'm going to take them out for the final model that is getting sent out for quote. I think I have the injector ports correctly placed. I need to confirm with Ron and Paul the exact depth and dimensions of these ports. Anyway, figured it was about time for me to post an update. BTW, the fuel rail needs to be tweeked for the flange mounted injector spacing. It is setup for the injectors being centered on the port centerline. Little things here and there. I'm going to call my machinist today and see what he thinks. Hopefully I can get a run of 6 of the head flanges and plenum bases started next monday. It will probably take all of June for the machining because this guys slow, but the price is right. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 For the first design, we are going to keep it simple. 95% of the L28's around aren't going to need or use 12 injectors. If people were commonly maxing out 1000cc injectors on their turbo setups I could see it, but thats not really happening as far as I can tell. Justin, I agree that nobody is maxing out 1000cc injectors but the reason for staged injectors isn't necessarily about max capacity. Having the ability for two sets of injectors would allow the use of MUCH cheaper lower cc injectors to satisfy the max fuel requirement plus you could ensure a smooth idle by using only the first six smaller injectors. Once you starting using the BIG injectors, idle quality AFR suffers, especially if you are using a batch fire injection instead of sequential. With my batch fired six 550cc injectors at 1.7ms I get about a 14:5 idle AFR so there isn't much room to move if I go up to 680 or 720 or 750cc. Regardless, one of the reasons I like my EFI is I can pass DEQ emissions testing then go to the dyno without making a change. . I also understand that this still doesn't negate the extra cost and complexity of building a staged injection manifold. Thanks for putting your time and effort into this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 John, I definitely agree with you that it is nice to be able to run 2 smaller injectors in place of one larger injector. Does your TEC3 allow you to run 12 injectors? I can work on modeling up the secondary set of injectors properly and see what kind of additional cost it would impose. For a big turbo car it would be very nice to cruise around on a set of 300cc primaries, and then have the 720cc secondaries come in under boost. Heck, I planned out a very cool setup that would have 1600cc secondaries for straight methanol. That would allow one to idle around on pump gas then have methanol come in under boost. 40psi on the streets :) I'd have to think a bit about how to turn on the second fuel pump at the right time so the whole system would work. Maybe a switch for the pump would also change to a different fuel and timing map for the methanol. Best Regards, Justin Olson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_racer1999 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 John,...Heck, I planned out a very cool setup that would have 1600cc secondaries for straight methanol. That would allow one to idle around on pump gas then have methanol come in under boost. 40psi on the streets :) ... !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 John, I definitely agree with you that it is nice to be able to run 2 smaller injectors in place of one larger injector. Does your TEC3 allow you to run 12 injectors? I can work on modeling up the secondary set of injectors properly and see what kind of additional cost it would impose. For a big turbo car it would be very nice to cruise around on a set of 300cc primaries, and then have the 720cc secondaries come in under boost. Heck, I planned out a very cool setup that would have 1600cc secondaries for straight methanol. That would allow one to idle around on pump gas then have methanol come in under boost. 40psi on the streets :) I'd have to think a bit about how to turn on the second fuel pump at the right time so the whole system would work. Maybe a switch for the pump would also change to a different fuel and timing map for the methanol. Best Regards, Justin Olson My Tec3 and the Wolf3D both have the ability to use staged injection. E85 would be an ideal application for staged injection. I don't know about 40psi though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 I realized my secondary injector bungs were messed up in my model. Heres a side view with them changed: Outlined View of above: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 Talk to a machinist just a little bit ago. He had a couple ideas to make it more manufacturable and cheaper. I'm going to draw up these changes and post the design. Price is coming in fairly reasonable IMO. The injector bungs will be machined into the cylinder head flange. I'm going to try and make the plenum base a bit thinner to get some cost out of it. Besides that all looks good. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_478 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Sounds like it is all coming together nicely! Cant wait to see the finished product. Will you be selling the manifold all finished or in pieces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 Depending on the demand, I may sell these as complete pieces. I'm not sure yet. I have to talk it over with Ron and see what he thinks and wants to do with this. I definitely dont think I want to see this piece by piece. I may put together a complete "KIT" that is unwelded. Just have to price everything out and see where we are at. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_478 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Sounds good to me I was hoping to lean towards a flange and you get all the other stuff yourself or even the "KIT" like you say is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_racer1999 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 wow, this is coming along nicely!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecase70 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I definately would like to get the kit as i have a welder on retainer so to speak lol:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapiper Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 HAve you priced alcohol resistant inj lately? Hope you prevail with fab of the manifold, but dual inj probably overkill and adds complexity. Don't sweat inj placement, since most are running RC inj with their narrow 10 deg wide pattern. Now if I can just get an exh hdr and wastegate adapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 2, 2007 Author Share Posted June 2, 2007 What size fuel rail do people want with these? I was thinking -8 fuel rail extrusion would be big enough for most. Ross Machining sells -6, -8 and -10 fuel rail extrusion (0.50", 0.69" and 0.80" inside diameter). Regards, Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHADY280 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 id be interested in a "kit" of course price counts, i like what your doing, ill even take screwed up "seconds" cause i dont care if its not purty. dash 8 rail should be enough for most, but you could offer different sizes, prolly not all that difficult to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecase70 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 hey Justin, How is the "kit" coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 I wrapped up the changes last night before bed. I'll post some updated pictures when I arrive home tonight. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecase70 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 awsome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 These pictures represent the changes that I've made to make these parts cheaper to make and easier for the end user to assembly. The plenum base is now made from a 1/2" thick aluminum stock instead of full 1". The cylinder head flange has been shortened slightly so that 3.5" x 1" aluminum stock could be used. I've also changed the slip fits on the runners. They now slip in 1/2" instead of the full 1" thickness. This was done so that the injector bungs wouldn't have to be machined after the runners were welded into the cylinder head flange. It may not be as strong as Rons original design, but I feel that it is a good compromise to make these easier to assembly. Regards, Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecase70 Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Cool! Looking forward to being able to get one of these manifolde for my 76 280 here in smog town so ca lol but the good thing is my car is from tx and has to conform to federal standards he he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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