jgkurz Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hi Admin's, I have an idea I'd like to suggest. Hopefully this hasn't been addressed already. Has HybridZ ever considered adding a section for Dyno results? We could do something like the Timeslips section where we put the specs of the run then attach a picture of the graph. We could have boxes for Dyno model, Engine, NOS level, Boost level, Transmission, Gear, Stall, Climate and Altitude. This could very helpful when comparing setups or for just plain old bench racing. Different dyno’s produce different results but they are still a great baseline for power comparison and tuning. Thanks for considering this request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 It has been discussed. The problem is you cannot by any means use the numbers from 2 different dynos in any type of legitimate comparison. As a dyno owner, misquoted and misunderstood dyno numbers and graphs seen on the internet take a huge portion of my time to explain to my customers what they mean, and why they aren't making as much horsepower as other cars "I read about on the internet". People lie. Whether its the person posting the numbers, or the dyno operators, or the dyno manufacturers. The only way to use a dyno is as a comparison tool. With that in mind there is no way I'd ever support a dyno database here personally... Just because I don't want to see other dyno owners stuck with trying to explain to someone why their car isn't making as much power as some car they read about on the internet. You could always start a thread in a forum though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 But on the other hand you can say the same thing about 1/4 mile times which we do have posted here. They are affected by the driver,track surface, altitude, weather, type of tires the car is running etc., etc. Those are probably even worse for comparison - which is done all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 Drax240z, I agree that dyno results can be manipulated but as a dyno owner you must know the value of comparing results from tuning changes and different setups. For example, I usually dyno my car on a DynoJet so comparing my graph to a similar setup on a Mustang dyno would look somewhat different. I think most of us know the differences but could still derive value from the comparisons. If we are able to input the pertinent info like, Dyno model, Engine, NOS level, Boost level, Transmission, Gear, Stall, Climate and Altitude I think we could still gain value. If HybridZ was a forum of beginner enthusiasts I would whole heartedly agree with you. However, I believe most of us know that dyno results are a tool and not empirical data. Personally I believe the HybridZ users could benefit from seeing the results of other folks' setup. The Timeslips section is no different in that people can lie to post better results. My observation is that the Admin's and users at HybridZ usually weed out the people who stretch the truth. Maybe we can have some type of disclaimer or make the page private. A forum would better than what we have today but not nearly as useful as a dedicated page. I appreciate your input and exchange of ideas. Thanks for re-considering. Respectfully, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Drax240z, If we are able to input the pertinent info like, Dyno model, Engine, NOS level, Boost level, Transmission, Gear, Stall, Climate and Altitude I think we could still gain value. If you do the same with quarter mile times, you still get a better number than a dyno number. The quarter mile is real, force times distance, the dyno doesn't compare in any way to 1/4 mile times IMO. Chassis dyno is good for tuning the car or seeing what effect changes have made on THAT car on the SAME dyno with the SAME settings IMO. If it had any real world translation to 1/4 mile times we wouldn't see 1000+HP dyno turbo mustangs doing 10.80's and 11.30's in the 1/4 like you see on racingsouthwest. Chassis dyno means very little in the real world of drag racing. I'm not for a dyno database and don't support it. If you want to run your car, get a timeslip, post it, great. If you can't back it up cause it's not your timeslip, then be embarrassed at the track, that's your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 People lie. So true. Street guys who lie overstate their horsepower. Racers who lie (pretty much all of them) understate their horsepower. That usually leaves street guys scratching their heads and wondering how they got beat by a car making a lot less horsepower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 Gentlemen, I'm disappointed that a dyno database will not be supported. I believe the extremely knowledgeable people that make up HybridZ would be able extract valuable information if a page was ever created. As always, thank you for your input and the work you do for HybridZ. Repectfully, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 The difference is simply this: A car that takes 11 seconds to travel down a 1/4 mile strip, takes 11 seconds. A car that makes 300rwhp on a dyno, doesn't make 300rwhp, because almost none of the machines out there calculate hp correctly. At the very least they don't calculate hp the same! A dynojet horsepower is different than a dynopack horsepower, is different than a dynocom horsepower. Now imagine if every 1/4 mile strip used a different "second" as a measure of time, and then trying to compare 1/4 mile times to each other... that's where the dyno world is right now... and consequently why I speak against this kind of comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 Now imagine if every 1/4 mile strip used a different "second" as a measure of time, and then trying to compare 1/4 mile times to each other... that's where the dyno world is right now... and consequently why I speak against this kind of comparison. That makes sense. My contention is that there is still value from seeing what a power and torque curve look like under certain conditions with a certain setup. Whether it's a supposed 1000HP or 180HP L6, the curve and A/F ratio data is still interesting. We could even setup the site to show iterations of a single owners setup on the same dyno. People will lie, we can't stop that. I believe we as a group would easily be able to determine who's skewing the data and who's legit. The ensuing discussion might actually be a great learning experience for folks trying to use a dyno properly. I don't want to beat a dead horse so I'll call the issue closed. Thank you for answering my request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Leave the Dynos for tuning. Unless your goal is to just have your Z sit on a dyno and spit out numbers that are hopefully higher than the next guy, don't make any comparisons after that. Many of the online calculators for basing whp from timeslip mph are also exagerated and vary by 25%. Too much emphasis on a hp number. Like what has been stated, a great way to compare what kind of power you are putting down is the mph from a timeslip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 A car that makes 300rwhp on a dyno' date=' doesn't make 300rwhp, because almost none of the machines out there calculate hp correctly. At the very least they don't calculate hp the same! A dynojet horsepower is different than a dynopack horsepower, is different than a dynocom horsepower. [/quote'] I'm curious now. Just how different do the results look from one dyno to another for the same car? I've heard this many times, but I've never actually seen a comparison... Nigel '73 240ZT (never dyno'd) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I can do up to a 400% increase with about 10 seconds of fiddling. So if the operator is setting things up so his numbers look better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I too would like to see a dyno section. Not eveyone is into drag racing (I've been 5 times in 20 yrs) and ET's can vary greatly with traction and a good or bad launch. About the only I thing I would care to see is trap speed. I know Mustang dynos read less than Dynojets but if the correction is the same, SAE. The numbers from dyno to dyno wouldn't be too far off if they were all dynojets. Yes, maybe some one can setup a dyno to read higher but why would they? There reputation is at stake. On other car forums chassis dynos are given much more credit than here. Certain turbos can only make so much power and it shows over and over in rwhp. Alot of new cars run 15-20% less on a chassis dyno and it works out based off what the manufacturer claims. Another thing that was brough up is comparing AFR. You can also soo the torque curve and for turbo guys when it comes on. Two of many good layed out pages for examples. http://dyno.to4r.com/graph.php http://moreboost.org/turbo_detail.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 On other car forums chassis dynos are given much more credit than here. That should give you a clue... My 240Z varied in whp numbers by 15 hp between Superior and DRS within the same week while mutiple engine dyno runs over 2 years were within 2 hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelToad Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 The difference is simply this: A car that takes 11 seconds to travel down a 1/4 mile strip' date=' takes 11 seconds. [/quote'] Does the same car take the same 11 seconds ... on a cool damp fall evening on its third run ... how about 1pm first run on a hot summer day ... or at the beach ... or in Colorado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 That should give you a clue... My 240Z varied in whp numbers by 15 hp between Superior and DRS within the same week while mutiple engine dyno runs over 2 years were within 2 hp. Yes it does.... 15 hp variation on a 300 or so HP engine isn't that much when it would just be for veiwing purposes. It would still be nice to see the rwhp dyno even if it wasn't as consistently accurate as an engine dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majik16106 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 it actually helps alot in decision making. a majority of people on here, especially since we are seeing a lot of new members, havtn decided what kind of motor they want. I waited for a month to see alex (sr240z) dyno the sr car with the new turbo to help me decide if i wanted to build another 7m z or try an sr z.. and at that power level... that curve is just way to late.. he doesnt see 300rwhp until 5k, on a 7m i can make 500rwhp at the same 7.5k rpm but make the 300rwhp at 3200 and i will also make 480 ft lb of torque. now i realize, 2 motors drive different, different weights.. but for my purposes that put the nail in. i can have a longer power band, much quicker response, and make the same power at 18psi on 93 oct. im in street car, so the wieght and handling penalty is ok with me. thats why v8 z's are so fun, big long powerband. they dont have to make 600rwhp. I agree with them, dyno may not be accurate, but depending on why your looking at them.. they can be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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