Tony D Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Got some time to return to the Megasquirt invalid in the back yard after the Wife suggested "come hell or high water it needs to get moving" I started reading up on all the travails of Mr. Webb's issues and went out to check some stuff on mine. I'd recalled something about Taylor Wires, but couldn't remember what.... Oh yeah, they were crap, and after he changed his the odd resets and stuff went away. Well, I had Taylor wires on the car. I went back through my notes, and anecdotally at least looked like there was a correlation between the troubles and their installation. When I had first run up the engine it was on some old stockers, and somewhere along the line, after it initially was running thought the car needed some color-matched wires.... It is supposed to be for the wife, you know... So the Taylors go installed. And reading the old web posts apparently they are not recomended with the MS unit. I don't know if this is in the Sticky (been a long time since reading it) but the "suggested" wires should be called out for people reading it before initial install. Anyway, went and got some good supression wires (Take your pick, MSD 8.5mm Superconductor Supression Wires with Bosch Resistor Plugs...or Bosch Resistor Wires with Bosch Resistor Plugs, and Autolite Resistor Plugs...Or MSD wires and Autolite Resistor Plugs, or any combination of the several aforementioned components...) You know where this is going, right???? I start the car, run the car and get to the point where the alternator field flashes, and now the engine will shut down and stumble after 13 seconds (instead of the former 45 seconds). By shut down, I mean the LED on the MS closest to the DB9Pin literally shuts off 13 seconds after the field flashes, and takes a pause before coming back on again. Engine won't completely stop, but the Tach immediately drops to Zero, and then jumps back up to wherever it would normally be on a coast-down from say 3500rpms (where the screwdriver wedged in the throttle assembly could keep the car running)... Now, moving the power pickup point of the Radioshack 20A Line Filter from the starter to the front terminal of the dual-terminal battery didn't make much of a difference, nor did adding new 2-Gauge Battery Cables + and - to the mix... Getting frustrated at this point, and looking at my old MS Box that suddenly stopped working just after I resolved the old "XP COM" problem (archives, that was something like three years ago) I see that the good old reset pin was plucked out of the socket. So, thinking "WTF" I unseated the chip, and plucked this reset pin out of the mix. Now, when the car is started, and the field on the alternator flashes, there is no lag of 13 seconds before the problems start. As soon as that baby flashes, the thing starts doing it's thing: tach drops to zero, then starts backfiring, popping, generally running like Sh*t... Keep it so the alternator (Nissan Remanufactured Unit, not crap Autozone junk) doesn't flash, and it seems to run fine, as long as the battery voltage is up. What's next, besides trashing it all and going back to Carburetion? This is Bullsh*t. I'm looking at the V2.2 Board Copyright Date, and can't offhand remember when the group buy was on those boards (the last group buy offered) but whatever it was, 1 year after the stuff was here, at the outside, was when it was put together and this project got underway. Is someone going to say put a different alternator into the car? I got a GM conversion unit from JeffP's cast-offs. Nice externally regulated unit... Is someone going to suggest it's alternator noise, even through the line filter. Or is someone going to suggest using a test instrument that costs more than the car to probe stuff and see what is going on? Last time I probed anything, I couldn't see any significant power issues on feed power. If I'm going to be told to scope it, I need to know what to look for and where to set the dials.... I can see inductive kick from the injectors at different places, but not after coming out of board filtration (as I recall...this has been some time ago). In either case, I'm out another $200+ and the thing STILL isn't working. And the kicker is this is the basic, Magnus MS-n-S code of looooooong ago. I will not upgrade to the new stuff with another entire set of bugs to figure out and mess with till this basic setup is running. Right now, I would KILL to have a Eurospec Pneumatically retarded Distributor to stick on this thing and just run fuel-only. Being this is an 81ZXT engine, I still have the Electronic Distributor Option... But for that, I will end up tearing out the whole MS Harness and redoing it just for principal. I really am glad Webbie got his running. His success and Taylor Wire connection got me going and enthusiastic to try it on one of the few free days I have available... but this crash-and-burn is fully discouraging and makes me want to torch the SOB. And like Frank280ZX says: "And this is the only shiny car you have, Tony, why aren't you running it?" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted December 10, 2006 Administrators Share Posted December 10, 2006 A float test is in order... drop MS in an appropriate sized and calibrated bucket of water... If it sinks its BAD. I feel your pain... Sorry man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONGO510 Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Was the MS a kit? did you solder up the board? If so check all solder connections for cold joints or bridging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoeightythreez Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 I built my MS_II from a kit, installed it, and am currently tuning it. It works great. SOrry to hear some don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Tony, You have a shiny car? I've seen a number of your cars, but none that were shiny. Now that I work for a large O-Scope company (the startup thing ran out of funding), I have access to a number of scopes. Send me both of your units, and I will first test them out on the club car. At least I can help you "cut the cards" on this one. If the club car runs OK, then it's not your MS, but something in your harness. If you want to send me your harness, I can check that out too on the bench. Think of it as compensation for the time you held Dan Baldwins gas tank off the ground for an hour or so at the convention in NY 8^). PM me if you want me to look at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 10, 2006 Author Share Posted December 10, 2006 z-ya, "You have P-M"! LOL Too bad on the startup, but I know how it goes. At least your former employer didn't decide to sue you out of spite for leaving... Or am I assuming too much? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 maby your car suffered from a e.m.p!!??? Just think of the guru you will be when the solution is found. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 maby your car suffered from a e.m.p!!??? Just think of the guru you will be when the solution is found. Good luck! This is not that far out of the realm of possibility. The ground wire in the engine bay harness was toast. I suspect at some time in the past, someone reverse-polarity connected the battery or battery cables. Man, cutting that harness all apart and replacing the ground with a #8 Battery Isolation Cable was a P.I.T.A.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olie05 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 have you tried powering the MS with an external 12v battery? This would Isolate it to an ignition related or Megasquirt related problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjuju Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 With my 81, I had a hell of a time too. It almost seems like the 81 turbo should just be taken off the list of ♥♥♥♥ you can put ms into. I ended up taking off the crank pully, drilling three holes, epoxying magnets in them, then fabbing a bracket to hold a hall effect sensor. what a pain in the ass. then i ran a 4 pin hei, and all was fine. that's my suggestion. I beleive I am running taylors, btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 i use a 81-83 internally regulated alternator-i modded the wiring.try running with alternator disconected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 Done, Done, Done... Originally it seemed to be running well on the internally regulated alternator. Then I got smart and changed back to the OEM style for a 74. And coming full circle put it back in. Like I said, as long as the alternator field does not flash and start charging it runs fine. Maybe it's heat related with something in the alternator as it seems to go longer when stone cold. But having had several alternators, batteries, wires, filters.... What do you mean "you modded the wiring" Ranty? Did the external regulator plug with the diode in it? As for the 81 causing a problem... The waveform (which I DID scope extensively before attempting the conversion) is identical to that of an 82/83CAS unit. The point being it should work as is. if it works from an identical waveform off and 82/83 CAS, it should work off the 81 CAS. And the chances of FIVE 81CAS units (all but the original one off running, driving vehicles) being bad and causing a problem is very slim. When I do actually get the time to work on it, it seems it just succeeds in pissing me of further. I'm mailing the boxes to Z-Ya for his diagnosis on the construction of the boxes and related items. If it works in his race car, then we know it's not a box issue. I have turned down offers from others closer to use their box simply because I didn't want to hack someone elses box to work in my car. But giving my box for someone to try it in a known good harness / accessory setup.... I'm all up for that! I can always re-program to where I was before after they flash it. hell, if he gets it working on his Club Car, I will probably upgrade software to whatever HE is running as I KNOW that is a correct and working configuration for the set! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olie05 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I'm very curious to see what this problem turns out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoeightythreez Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I'm still running taylor wires on my Z. They're at least 3 yrs old (I've had them that long and I bought them at unknown age) I also added body grounds, and every sensor ground went to my MS unit. I'm also curious to see what the problem is. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Install an in dash radio and see if it also suffers from noise. Might give you something cheaper than a scope to use for troubleshooting, and most likely your noise is in the audible range. Just something easy. Otherwise sell the MS boxes to someone else and use the money to buy a different standalone. I would borrow an ECU from someone else, like an SDS if its possible and make sure it will work on the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank280zx Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 well we have came trough another summer and if Tonys son did not polish it ... it will seem more pink now but hey it shines ! and would be very easy to become a really shiny car! ... i know it would not be tony ! However now it is a black widow home haha ! dusty and full of nice webbing! I can bring a dizzy for you btw .. lemme know in time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Posted by TonyD When I do actually get the time to work on it, it seems it just succeeds in pissing me off further. I don't know a thing about MS, but that's quote of the week material. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 13, 2006 Author Share Posted December 13, 2006 "Consider Enough Time Being Given" Bring the Distributor Frank! And that 260 Tail Light and the pump.....hell just mail it, those idiots in TSA will probably just rip it off again if you take it in checked baggage... Er, if you fly through Newark, that is... I actually have a scope, and nice 100ms four channel unit that JeffP gave me. It worked better before he threw it about 25 feet in a fit of Moosehead-Induced rage when we were probing the COM port issue three years ago... What can I say? I'm hard headed. I just didn't have the luxury of "substitution" to black-and-white eliminate the box as an issue (same problem when the Laptop was the issue. We got it working fine with JeffP's Win98 Laptop, but not mine... Remember those posts?) I do have an SDS sitting out back, but it would only work on N/A engines. I haven't pursued that option and don't even know if it's upgradeable to Turbo Specification. I could try the Electramotive TEC box we had in the Bonneville Car... I think that is configurable for boost. Hmmmmmmm TEC2... No! I'm going to remain Hard-Headed and get this damn thing working. unless my wife really starts hounding me, then I will succumb and probably throw in some Z31 MAF component cast-offs from Jeff's Garage Floor... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Hey my 82 had that happen to it, reverese polerity, so did my 83, not somthing i did, andy how the after 5 alternators in 82 two in 83, short behind fuse box, mild though, would cause spikeing in volt gague radomly, took long time to find! also found that a new bocsh alternater was the most stable one i ever ran and is still running,,,,,mabey helpfull. Both cars had same thing happen and same systoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 my car is a 77.i run 81-83zxt alternator.you have to figure out 2 wires at old regulator-extend them to alternator.1 wire is the field and 1 trips that little red charge led in the volt meter.but when i installed my ms i put an odessey 950a drycell in the back with new home built cables.the ms is mounted to the bulkhead behind the seat.the wires to ms are very short and ms relay board is wired directly to the battery-gorund and +.there is a ground and + wire running to the starter-both #2 welding cable.the + from the alternator runs directly to the battery cable connection on the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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