BillZ260 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 No loud bang, nothing! Actually sounded like the clutch started slipping. I was on the highway, everything is running fine, was accelerating a bit in 5th and it just let go. 1-4 shift fine, reverse is there too. I don't remember if that 5th speed is keyed to the shaft it's sitting on or not. I am guessing the key let go but who knows. It's been almost 2 years since I put it together. Since it's not affecting anything else yet, it's probably going to be a while before I get around to dropping the trans and fixing this. On the bright side, the car is running strong, I still think it is not getting enough gas sometimes, i have a new accelerator pump to swap. Everything else seems great, no overheating, no weird gremlins or anything else (other than a few electrical)...SO FAR... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I got a thought for you... ... you'z got a limited-edition T-4 now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I've got mine on the bench right now rebuilding it. My GUESS is that you've smoothed the teeth on it. My understanding of the limited reading I've done due to my transmission rebuild project is that the 5th gear is highway convenience oriented , and not meant to be used to pull hard with a really torquey motor. And I understand why when I look at the 5th gear teeth. Much smaller, finer gear teeth than the first 4 gears, and the angle of the gear cut is much steeper than the straighter 1-4 gear cutting. If the T-5 is not shimmed correctly to reduce the end clearance (correctly means less than the factory specs) to just about zero (or 1-2 thous less), then the gears will also spread apart on high torque pulls (again, related to the steeper gear cutting). Building one of these with minimal clearance is almost as important as the good gears. The aluminum case expands more than the steel internals, so once it gets warm, your clearances open even more so. Here are the 5th speed gears in the photo below. On this "road track" version, there are 33 teeth on the smaller gear, and 53 on the large gear: And here is a typical 1-4 gears, You'll not see more that 33 teeth on the 1st gear (largest one, to the left side of the case), and 13 teeth on the other 1st gear. Big difference even though they span the same centerlines: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 T-4! Thats exactly what I thought when it happened or dunnoo.. Terry, so you think once the first one started to go, they all just ripped off? It's not that I don't think it can happen, I'm just surprised that you can't use any power at all! I mean I know I was under 2K when this happened, maybe right at but definitely not over. Looking at your pictures there (thanks for posting by the way) those teeth are really fine, and I guess there was no grinding because they are housed in that expansion casing away from the "T-4". As for the Shaft end play, I'm pretty sure I had mine set w/ in tolerance of what the manual stated, but I don't think I bought that billet retainer plate, looks like maybe I should have w/ my torque supposedly much higher then my HP. ( I say supposedly because the the DD2000 #'s which were 300 HP / 400 Tq ) I'll play with it today to see if i can think of a way to confirm. I hope that all the teeth sheered right off and won't flow with the tranny fluid back into the main case! That could cause me some problems eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Bill, I'd try to source a better quality 5th gear if one is available. My guess is that those teeth will do some major harm floaring around in there... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 One other thing. The steeper gear cut may also have caused the snap ring to slip out, pushing the driven gear down the mainshaft. You'd be lucky on that one though. There is a small 1/2" hole at the bottom of the case that allows a connection to transmission lubricant from one side to the other, so material could pass through there, but there is a magnet at the front of the main case. This brings up a question I've got on my mind. My 'road track' gears provided an OD ratio of .80. The new gears I've got coming are .59 (big change). Because the “driven” gear is going to be a smaller diameter than what I originally had (33 teeth down to 27 teeth), will the smaller radius cause it to have less torque capability than a larger diameter gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 Thanks for the extra input guys, the more I think about it, the more I DON'T want to drive it. I sent a note to Kevin at the GearBox.org to see what he thinks about it. Mike, when I hear back from Kevin, I'll probably be ordering at least some pieces from him. I'll see what he suggests for a tougher 5th. Terry, THAT would be a little ray of sunshine if the C clip popped off! This morn I was skimming through some other sites looking for related issues and I read a note that said the farther you space you gears, the less torque it will handle. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, you would be weakening your top end. I just didn't realize that it was so touchy if I put the hammer down! Gotta go clear some more trees out of the back yard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Cleaned up the trees, and just finished some more searching/reading. Seems like this is a pretty common issue, at least I'm not the first person it's happened to. Problem is not many of the threads out there comment on solutions, most "upgraded" to something else. This Jeep thread a guy lost 5th due to reason Terry mentioned before, he said it happened like 2 or 3 times, the C-clip (the new one was a pain to stick in there w/ my cheapy HF snap ring pliers!) The way he explained it happening sounds just like what happened. No noises, just lost 5th. http://forums.jpmagazine.com/70/810092/jeep-transmission/i-lost-5th-gear/index.html Another guy with and V8 RX7 had his syncro/gear cluster jam together, I don't think this is it, since he couldn't actually stick it in the 5th shifter location. http://www.v8rx7forum.com/158431-post1.html I'll keep my eyes open, wait for Kevin's comments, then figure out when I'm going to pull the trans. I guess I"ll pull the motor too...JEESH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Interesting. The G-Force main-shaft that I purchased uses 2 snap rings on the fifth gear (snap ring-spacer-another snap ring) for extra holding power. But now I'm seriously considering the extra $300 and get their HD 5th gear upgrade before I button all this together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 From Kevin "If you lost teeth it would have make a lot of noise or possibly locked up, What is a common problem is the snap ring that iot does not inguage, thats where i would start looking. , Let me know if we can be of further help, thanks kevin" There was definitly no noise, and given the other cases, or one other case, I'm hoping that's it. Terry, in your pics you posted above, I don't see 2 snap rings, is that conical looking pc the spacer? What does G-Force offer as the HD 5th gear unit? 300 seems a bit steep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 The above photos are on tear-down, so it's the OEM mainshaft. I don't know of any other option on the 5th gear. Everybody is more interested in 1 through 4, and fifth seems to be ignored in regards to upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I guess I"ll pull the motor too...JEESH! uhhh oh..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Looks like a design problem to me. Easy to see that it's going to try to spit the mainshaft gear to the back under load. Anyone have pictures of the HD $300 upgrade? 2 snap rings would definately be better than one but I'm not sure that's the best fix. I was considering going manual in the next z cause I just like having a manual in a sports car. But I am now leaning towards the t56 rather than the t5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Was discussing this w/ some folks at work this AM. Guy had the same issue on his NVxxxx in his Dodge tow rig. Said that 5th gear had a bolt retaining it but would still back out. Happened so frequently he got good enough to pull the tailshaft fix it and have it back together in 30 min! This got me to thinking, I don't really need to pull everything, I'm going to take a look at how much room I have, and if I can, I'll just pull the tail shaft! I'd like to see the HD solution, Maybe 2 thinner snaprings with faces offset is worth a try. Terry, can you measure the snap ring groove in yours and the measurments of the stock snapring? Maybe we can HybridZ up a solution to this that doesn't cost an Arm and a Leg. Dr-T56 is a good option but does weight a bit more. I like the T-5, maybe only because I am familiar with it. I'd like to make it work for me, and if that includes only babying it in 5th, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Pics of parts that are supplied by G-force. http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/pdfs/PricingT-5_05.07.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Been digging around, wondering how much work it's going to be to pull the tail shaft only. Could be tricky, but I'll take a look some time this week. Kinda hard to make out any detail in those pics above G-force needs to post some better ones, here are some that are a bit clearer from other sites. Single Grooved Output Shaft (Car Craft Article here: http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0609_t5_transmission/photo_07.html) Double Grooved Output Shaft (This one is from an MM&FF article here: http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/projectcars/mmfp_0705_project_1993_ford_svt_cobra_transmission/photo_12.html) I guess the straighter the cut on the 5th gear the less pressure that gets applied, so if the HD gear is simply straight cut, that would eliminate most any pressure on that C ring. Unrelated but found a cool budget shifter for anyone looking, wish I'd have seen this months ago ( or maybe not, loving the Hurst Billet!) Company is MGW. I thought you could just buy the handle, but not so on the site....hmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I've got the same reasons for keeping the T-5 and upgrading it. Weight is a big issue, plus I'm not sure about the additional clearancing I'll need with the T-56. My T-5 is right up against the top of the tunnel. Plus, I don't know what the T-56 5th or 6th gear is designed like. The G-Force 5th gear is an 18/31 tooth arrangement. Compare that to a 33/53 for my OEM gears and you'll see the teeth are considerably coarser and larger, and with a straighter cut. I'm curious if they will whine a little bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Yeah, those are alot beefier! Whine is cool Well, maybe not if it's overdrive but still, your car should have a race car whine to it I'm wondering IF i could take two Clips and sand them down to fit in the groove and stick them in with the openings set opposed to each other. I would have control over the thickness and only allow enough clearance to get the two in there, and not much else. Any Mechanical engineers want to comment on strength of one VS two in the single groove? Or maybe give another solution. I am not buying a different output shaft unless I break this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Any Mechanical engineers want to comment on strength of one VS two in the single groove? Or maybe give another solution. Your not going to gain much that way, a single thicker clip in a deeper groove perhaps. Bottom line is that g-force has recognized what I did, the gear angle was too steep for the mechanism that holds 5th gear on. IMO, buy the shaft and gear or you will be later. Just my $.02. Besides, is it better to wait, spend alittle more and have it right or do it twice with the extra bucks the second time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 When I dissassembled my gear (I'm at work and not looking at the shaft at this time), I recall the clip being just about 100% of the width of the groove, and at a respectable depth. IMHO, perhaps a new clip is what may be needed, and extra care not to over extend it when installing it back on the shaft. I'm not sure if two thinner ones would be of any benefit. My concern is that if the clip did get pushed out, then I would assume some amount of rounding of the groove's edge (and/or) the clips edge, which may promote this happening again. This may be a very small amount, but more than it was before it was pushed out. Lastly, has anyone considered drilling a short hole and placing a pin behind a spacer set behind the clip, or in the gear itself? The reason I bring this up is that the shaft already as a pin shaft drilled further up the shaft (1-2 gear area) to prevent the gear bearing race from spinning on the mainshaft. There is another hole drilled in the mainshaft further down for the speedo gear retainer. So I cannot see at this point any additional weaking by drilling another short hole to prevent the 5th gear from slipping past the groove. Is this thinking flawed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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