Manual Jag v12

[Jesse OBrien]

I've been researching for the past week on which engine to put in the s30 I'll purchase (as soon as I decide on engine) and I think it's narrowed down to the Jag 5.3l v12. My one caveat is that manual transmissions are nearly impossible to find, and the torque from the v12 makes it even more difficult (if I've done my math correctly, the first stomp on the throttle will hand-grenade a t5 or t56).

 

Considering the t5 and t56 are the industry standards, and essentially the do-all, end-all of rwd transmissions, I wanted to go with that as my choice. My research started here:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=97350

and went here:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=111184&highlight=v12

and brought me over here:

http://ca.geocities.com/dotdotdot@rogers.com/

and finally (arguably most importantly) here:

http://www.5speeds.com/v12bell.html

 

Now, I'm fairly new to the rwd scene as a whole, so I'm unfamiliar with this counting-splines and matching clutch forks (Hondas are a good deal simpler, and machining anything in the Honda community is basically unheard of). It looks like that bellhousing allows Tremec transmissions to be bolted up, but I'm confused as to exactly which transmissions will slide in (spline pattern and diameter appears to be the defining factor).

 

What I need to know:

1. What factors am I looking for? (spline number, input shaft diameter, shifter location, flywheel/clutch, etc).
   
2. Does anybody have the specifics on the transmission-side of the Jag 5.3 v12?
   
3. Who has done this already? (I know DOT did, and since the t56 is my preference, I'm specifically hoping he replies).

I've done a lot of research on the engine, and it basically needs a new intake/header system (I think my plans for ITBs will work very very nicely), a pair of cams, and a valvetrain to put down a nice fat, even powerband.

 

Because there are four machine shops right down the street from me, I'll probably go to one of them rather than ordering a bellhousing online, unless there are some really rave reviews about 5speeds.com out there.

 

Anyway, thanks in advance, I really appreciate any help I can get at this point, I'm feeling like there isn't too much left to do but dive in with a wrench.

[jbk240z]

http://www.wilcap.com

They have alot of different bellhousings and adapters, as well as custom made set-ups.

Good luck.

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

I have not looked at all of your research, but my own, extensive first-hand experience with the T5 is this: I've put better than 800hp and 650ft/lb of torque through a Stock t5 with narry a problem. I don't know the T56 very well yet, but it will be my choice behind my LS1, which will beat the pants off the V12 in both torque and HP most days of the week. I have friends who've used their T56's behind 6 and 700 hp motors regularly.

[BRAAP]

I have not looked at all of your research, but my own, extensive first-hand experience with the T5 is this: I've put better than 800hp and 650ft/lb of torque through a Stock t5 with narry a problem. I don't know the T56 very well yet, but it will be my choice behind my LS1, which will beat the pants off the V12 in both torque and HP most days of the week. I have friends who've used their T56's behind 6 and 700 hp motors regularly.

 

 

Da-man,

A blanket statement with HP and torque specs of that magnitude as working with narry a problem through a “stock” Borg Warner T-5 comes across as misleading as it goes against conventional wisdom regarding the Borg Warner T-5 transmission, including the WC. If you have had one or more T-5’s survive at WOT and under other various performance driving conditions, in a car, with any sort of traction for any sort of time, (those torque figures as measured on a dyno with the print out, or qualified with vehicle weight and ¼ mile time slips), please elaborate as to which T-5 and how much modification has been done to that stock T-5.

I’ll be honest. To me, 800 HP, and 650 lbs torque sound about the realistic max for a T-56, and a recipe for stock T-5 explosions, even the WC.

[COZY Z COLE]

my own, extensive first-hand experience with the T5 is this: I've put better than 800hp and 650ft/lb of torque through a Stock t5 with narry a problem..

 

Exactly what car was this, what was the engine specs on it, and let's see a chassis dyno sheet on that car....

BTW a few pics would be nice or better yet a video of one of it's runs...

 

The last week this rather quite Forum has had some rather "interesting" thread action....

 

LARRY

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

y'all are gonna make me sorry i said anything, aren't ya?

 

No, I don;t have any empeical data of any sort to back it up for ya. The specific trans in question was a World Class T5. The trans was used in several projects prior to my (heavily modified) '89 mustang that was dyno'd at 700~hp on the motor. Understand: this was 15 yrs ago. I don't keep ANYTHING but underwear for that long, let alone a dyno pull print-out. I then threw on a 150shot of nitrous and used it at the dragstrip twice on a 10.5" slick, but rememebred why i was bored with dragracing after that. Used it as a driver for another year before selling it.

I used alot of clutches, and had a problem (that I don't think is related) with pilot bushings.

 

Other than that: you're welcome to call me a liar, or a newb, or whatever you'd like. You're welcome to suggest that I'm making it up... as long as you allow me the room to respond with the suggestion that you're all just trying to help people spend money that could be avoided, because you hate it when others create a project that isn't yours, or done the way you'd do it. ('cuz that's the feeling I sometimes get from this forum)

[BRAAP]

Da-man,

Sounds like a monster Mustang. 700 HP N/A. Was that at the wheels or crank! What motor, 429/460, 427/428 FE? Any pics of the car and motor! Sounds fun.

 

 

y'all are gonna make me sorry i said anything, aren't ya?

 

No, I don;t have any empeical data of any sort to back it up for ya. The specific trans in question was a World Class T5. The trans was used in several projects prior to my (heavily modified) '89 mustang that was dyno'd at 700~hp on the motor. Understand: this was 15 yrs ago. I don't keep ANYTHING but underwear for that long, let alone a dyno pull print-out. I then threw on a 150shot of nitrous and used it at the dragstrip twice on a 10.5" slick, but rememebred why i was bored with dragracing after that. Used it as a driver for another year before selling it.

I used alot of clutches, and had a problem (that I don't think is related) with pilot bushings.

 

Other than that: you're welcome to call me a liar, or a newb, or whatever you'd like. You're welcome to suggest that I'm making it up... as long as you allow me the room to respond with the suggestion that you're all just trying to help people spend money that could be avoided, because you hate it when others create a project that isn't yours, or done the way you'd do it. ('cuz that's the feeling I sometimes get from this forum)

[vale2489]

Are you just going to be throwing in a stock 5.3? Or are you going to be making insane power out of it? What year of the 5.3 are you using? I could see the concern running a T-5 behind it...but I would like to see the math you used to determine that it would grenade a t-56 which was put behind a motor that put out more power/torque than the v12 did. There's a shop in sacramento that deals mostly with jags and have had quite a few v12 manual trannies in the past, I'll see if they are still in business and get you their name if interested...imho you'd be better off with a T-56

[RTz]

Other than that: you're welcome to call me a liar, or a newb, or whatever you'd like. You're welcome to suggest that I'm making it up... as long as you allow me the room to respond with the suggestion that you're all just trying to help people spend money that could be avoided, because you hate it when others create a project that isn't yours, or done the way you'd do it. ('cuz that's the feeling I sometimes get from this forum)

 

I think you're misunderstanding. If you make profound claims, especially if they contradict popular experience, its only natural for people to ask for some substance... somthing to lend credibility. Its not an unreasonable request. In fact, it would be unreasonable for you to expect us to just 'swallow it' brainlessly. Hope that makes sense.

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

Da-man,

Sounds like a monster Mustang. 700 HP N/A. Was that at the wheels or crank! What motor, 429/460, 427/428 FE? Any pics of the car and motor! Sounds fun.

 

I guess I'm busted..... it was dyno'd at the crank

 

The motor was a bored / stroked 5.0 built by a local speed shop for a drag car they crashed. It was beautifully balanced and would rev to the moon. (I'd tell ya how high it'd rev, but then y'all would ask for a picture of the tacho, signed and notarized by a third party, sent in with video of the cameraman next to the car. )

 

The motor itself had reliability issues, to be sure. Heat was definitely its enemy, as was cheap gas. But the trans just kept going and going.

 

As for pics: I'll dig some out someday. No video. (hell, even the pics will have to be scanned.... I'm sometimes very low-tech.) As you may remember from some other threads I've participated in, I've been racing motorcycles for the last 10 years, and the car stuff has been stashed away.

The Mustang was only one of many projects I enjoyed. Back in the day, my stuff was NEVER pretty.... but it was ALWAYS mean. (I used to use the word "RAW"....) At my current stage in life, I'm interested in doing things a little better. A little more thorough, and a little more "creative". Hence the desire to look into an AWD for my roadaster..... and my patience to have the body on my rotisserie, knowing that added a year to the project for me.

[BRAAP]

I guess I'm busted..... it was dyno'd at the crank

 

The motor was a bored / stroked 5.0 built by a local speed shop for a drag car they crashed. It was beautifully balanced and would rev to the moon. ....

The motor itself had reliability issues, to be sure. Heat was definitely its enemy, as was cheap gas. But the trans just kept going and going.

 

As for pics: I'll dig some out someday. No video. (hell, even the pics will have to be scanned.... I'm sometimes very low-tech.) ....

 

 

AWD Roadster. Cool with lots of WOW factor no doubt.

700 HP and out of a small bock no less! bored and stroked, so a 331, 347? No matter, that’s a petty powerful little block for sure. Do you recall the torque output?

Being more of a “mean/raw” car, (built to go, not show eh?), how light were you able to get the Fox platform down to? Are they as light as an S-30?

 

Paul

[COZY Z COLE]

y'all are gonna make me sorry i said anything, aren't ya?

 

you're all just trying to help people spend money that could be avoided, because you hate it when others create a project that isn't yours, or done the way you'd do it. ('cuz that's the feeling I sometimes get from this forum)

 

That my friend is probably the most astounding statement I've read on HybridZ since I joined it. Let's see... My goal here is to make members spend money that they could of avoided and have everyone build a 355 SBC with a Roots blower!!!! I doing badly on my two goals and I will strive to do better in the future....:smile::smile:

 

LARRY

[rudypoochris]

I would think a TKO600 would be a very sweet transmission to put behind that block. In all honesty though I don't think you will break a WC T-5 with a stock Jaguar V12... You MIGHT, but the later Ford 5.0L motors were putting out 300lbft. Likewise, later 5.0L Mustang WC T5's also were beefed up from ~265ftlb capacity to 300ftlb.

 

As for the 700hp 5.0L that takes a 150 shot. Wow. So you had an 850hp Ford 5.0L? What year was the block? Did you run a girdle? Was it N/A? If so, where can I get those heads! Sounds like a magic motor.

[Jesse OBrien]

Well, wow. I certainly didn't expect this much action so quickly. I'll take the responses that were directed at me on a first-come, first-serve basis.

 

www.wilcap.com

They have alot of different bellhousings and adapters, as well as custom made set-ups.

Good luck.

 

They look pretty good, I'll call them on Monday to see what their prices are.

 

I have not looked at all of your research, but my own, extensive first-hand experience with the T5 is this: I've put better than 800hp and 650ft/lb of torque through a Stock t5 with narry a problem. I don't know the T56 very well yet, but it will be my choice behind my LS1, which will beat the pants off the V12 in both torque and HP most days of the week. I have friends who've used their T56's behind 6 and 700 hp motors regularly.

 

I see a lot of these stories, where stock parts never cause a problem in extreme circumstances. It's especially common in the Honda world, where many little 1.6l motors are forced to take "madd psi" (high cfm through a t3/t4 hybrid turbo, generally) and never explode. While I'm sure that there's a good chance the t5 would be fine, I'd rather go with the t56, if only for that 6th gear that I've always longed for.

 

As far as an LS1 beating the pants off a 5.3l v12, we'll just have to see. The 5.3l is heavier no matter what configuration you set up with, but revs higher (with proper flow, it supports 8800rpm safely) and I believe that it has more streetable potential. The whole purpose of this car is to make it fun to drive on sunny days.

 

Are you just going to be throwing in a stock 5.3? Or are you going to be making insane power out of it? What year of the 5.3 are you using? I could see the concern running a T-5 behind it...but I would like to see the math you used to determine that it would grenade a t-56 which was put behind a motor that put out more power/torque than the v12 did. There's a shop in sacramento that deals mostly with jags and have had quite a few v12 manual trannies in the past, I'll see if they are still in business and get you their name if interested...imho you'd be better off with a T-56

 

I've sourced a few different 5.3s, and haven't decided on a particular year, but it looks like the '81-'93 HE version (12.5:1 compression, terrible flow in the head) and adding on a custom ITB setup and a proper flowing exhaust, along with a pair of reground cams and port work (if it's even required).

 

Since the starting dyno chart looks nice and smooth and relatively powerful (~350hp and 400ft/lbs tq) I'll most likely just do bolt-ons (intake/exhaust/valvetrain/cams/megasquirt) and be happy as long as nothing breaks. Overall, it's not the numbers that matter, it's how good you feel when it's done. At least this way, I'm doing something that's at least a little off the beaten path.

[Z-TARD]

I considered the Jag V-12 as a powerplant for a long time in the begining stages of my build. I even went out to the junkyard and pulled one. My main reasons were:

 

A) It's a frick'n V-12!

 

The very flat torque and HP curves.

 

C) IT'S A FRICK'N V-12!

 

In the end though, common sense prevailed and I decided to go with a "generic" SBC conversion. The reasons being:

 

A) Weight. The Jag V-12 alone weighs over 600 pounds, despite the aluminum heads and block. Add a tranny capable of handling the torque and you are looking at 750+ pounds sitting in your engine bay....

 

Parts availability. Parts are hard to find, performance parts even more so. When parts are available, they are priced like Porsche parts....

 

C) Size. The Jag V-12 is absolutely massive. Despite it's size, the displacement is rather small at only 5.3 liters. Yes, there is room for it in the engine bay of a Datsun Z, but just barely. Quite a bit of it will hang over the crossmember, moving the weight distribution forward a bit. You can cut up the fire wall and move it rearwards, but your feet will then have to fit in a space the size of a Tic-Tac container to operate the pedals...

 

I still think the Jag V-12 is an awesome engine, and it would look amazing under the hood of a Z, but for V-12's I think the BMW would be a better option.

[Jesse OBrien]

A) Weight. The Jag V-12 alone weighs over 600 pounds, despite the aluminum heads and block. Add a tranny capable of handling the torque and you are looking at 750+ pounds sitting in your engine bay....

 

The engine is heavy, but if you cut out some of that oil (highly recommended with an oil cooler and a smaller oil pan) you're back down to 550lbs. Tranny weight ends up under the driver. it's low, and supports 50/50 weight distribution directly. It's heavier than an ls1, and is a little farther forward, but I'm at peace with that.

 

Parts availability. Parts are hard to find, performance parts even more so. When parts are available, they are priced like Porsche parts....

Engine parts I need are:

• CBR throttle bodies
  
• custom exhaust manifold
  
• reground cams (only need two!)
  
• stronger valve springs (basically just figure out the rates and order them non-engine-specifically, they're cheap)

There really isn't much "aftermarket" that's going to help me, other than a good clutch (which is just what I'd need for an LS1, for example).

 

C) Size. The Jag V-12 is absolutely massive. Despite it's size, the displacement is rather small at only 5.3 liters. Yes, there is room for it in the engine bay of a Datsun Z, but just barely. Quite a bit of it will hang over the crossmember, moving the weight distribution forward a bit. You can cut up the fire wall and move it rearwards, but your feet will then have to fit in a space the size of a Tic-Tac container to operate the pedals...

 

You're right. The Jag is huge. It does push center of gravity slightly farther forward, or I can hack up the firewall a little (which is what most BMW swappers have to do). I'm ok with a little front-biased weight. That's relatively easy to make up for with fiberglass or carbon fiber fenders and hood (which are shockingly heavy in stock configuration).

 

You do have good arguments, and from a purely logical standpoint I agree. If this were all about logical choices and getting the best engineered car possible, I'd start with a different car altogether. I'd get something with perfect weight distribution, the right engine from the factory, and an uncracked dash. Fortunately for me, I love the Jag v12 (far more than the BMW v12 for reasons unknown other than those who practice dark magic).

 

All arguments aside, I really do need to know the spline count on the engine, so I can figure out exactly what transmission I can fit on it. I'm fairly sure that the Viper t56 will fit, but input shaft diameter/length/spline-count are all factors that I can't confirm. I could really use some help before I start gathering parts (because I want to make sure they're the right parts ahead of time).

[RTz]

I really do need to know the spline count on the engine, so I can figure out exactly what transmission I can fit on it. I'm fairly sure that the Viper t56 will fit, but input shaft diameter/length/spline-count are all factors that I can't confirm.

 

There is no spline count on the engine. The splines are in the clutch disc.

[OlderThanMe]

It was beautifully balanced and would rev to the moon. (I'd tell ya how high it'd rev, but then y'all would ask for a picture of the tacho, signed and notarized by a third party, sent in with video of the cameraman next to the car. )

 

Well the only problem I see with a bored 5.0 revving "to the moon" and making 700hp is that I have seen many pictures of 500hp 5.0 ford motors that split the block down the middle and sent parts of a forged crankshaft and connecting rods flying through the block at a dyno'd 500HP and 7000 RPMs. Not really earth shattering power or RPM range for splitting the block IMO.

 

I do like the idea of a Jag V12 if it had forced induction of some kind...

[MrWOT]

Just in case you can't make the t56 work, a world class t5 will hold 374+ft/lbs, because I did so myself with my 86 SVO, and seen many others do the same on turbford.org Lasted a no-issue 17k, already had 102k on the clock as well, though well maintained. Car met it's sad end at that point, still running wonderfully.

[dr_hunt]

The sound of a cackling v-12 is friggin awesome, the rolls royce engines in the P-51 (hope that's right) are something to hear.

 

for the v-12 swap!