Holy Grail Teaser

[OlderThanMe]

I understand.....for the sake of my question... there are enough interested buyers...is it cheaper to CNC or cast a cover.

Or weld some KA valve covers together??

[Six_Shooter]

I could not possibly disagree more. if it only took a grand to put an RB head onto an L6 with external oiling and cooling, then it would have been done seventeen million times already..

 

I'll have to disagree with this, at least a little bit, and here's why:

 

There is a very much talked about and even proven swap for the Ford 2.3L. That is to get a Volvo DOHC head (the designation eludes me right now), that is nearly a bolt on to the 2.3, except for some welding of an aluminium block, some machine work, some added plumbing for the oiling, and some work to the timing system. Yet there are many Ford 2.3 enthusiasts that are unsure about doing it, even with all the documentation. Would cost less than a grand, and makes a whole bunch more power than a wildly ported Ford 2.3 head.

 

Another example of this is the GM 660 crowd, that is very much a simple bolt together of newer 660 heads onto the older blocks. In the FWD scene guys are doing it, since it's quite literally a bolt together, but the RWD guys are so skeptical about it, since using the older RWD block, a custom crank trigger has to be made, that it seems to scare them off, even though, I have proven it works. There are all of 3 running hybrid RWD 660s that I know of, or at least used to be running, mine is no longer together, and there is another that will be running soon. My point here is that it's even easier than the Ford 2.3/Volvo swap and there are even less guys doing it, and it could cost these guys under the $1K mark.

 

My final point to this is even a swap that could be considered easy by some or cheap that will make more power may not be done multiple times.

 

That being said, I don't know if an RB head is close enough to bolt to an L series, but if there is a head out there that is DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder that even with a fair amount of work would work on the L-series, I might consider building the L-series instead of just playing with it for a bit for now, until I swap another engine in. I'm sure that if an RB head was close enough, 1_fast_z would have used that isntead of mating parts of 3 KA heads.

 

The kinda humerous part about this is I'm looking for a high flowing head that even with some modification fit on the engine I want to build, but have not found one, yet. I've been close a couple times now, but there's always one area that would take far too much to modify to work on the block.

 

For those in this thread that are discounting the area of deveolping a head, you have to remember that the power is made in the head, more air in and more air out, also carries (or has the ability to) more fuel, which we all know has more power potential. So this DOHC/high flowing head is a great venture. I would take a slightly different avenue and just explore the possibility of an existing I6 head that is close enough to fit on the L-series, as you may find that a completly new casting may not be needed.

 

Just out of curiosity, 1_fast_z, what did you end up using for cams in your head? (Is it right to say that as a singular? )

[PanzerAce]

Six shooter, in addition to what you just said, there is also the fact that it isn't like RB26 heads are a dime a dozen.

[Six_Shooter]

Six shooter, in addition to what you just said, there is also the fact that it isn't like RB26 heads are a dime a dozen.

 

Very true, the only RBs I've seen are in cars and usually running, in swaps. It's not like they are in a bunch of cars at the local wreckers.

[PanzerAce]

Very true, the only RBs I've seen are in cars and usually running, in swaps. It's not like they are in a bunch of cars at the local wreckers.

 

To bad. Cause if there were, we could also get complete engines

[1 fast z]

My valve cover is out of billet, and made on our cnc mill. I did cut and weld a ka valve cover, and cam be done cheaply, but it comes out very ugly, on how the cuts are made. Like I said IF there WAS enough volume then casting could be done, but for what is involved and the cost, there would never be enough people willing to shell out the cash to cover cost involved. I would say that maybe I would get one guy ever to acutally be serious about the whole project. Atleast serious enough to fund it. My bets are that I will never make one for someone else though.

[Daeron]

I'll have to disagree with this, at least a little bit, and here's why:

 

There is a very much talked about and even proven swap for the Ford 2.3L. That is to get a Volvo DOHC head (the designation eludes me right now), that is nearly a bolt on to the 2.3, except for some welding of an aluminium block, some machine work, some added plumbing for the oiling, and some work to the timing system.

 

......

 

Another example of this is the GM 660 crowd....My point here is that it's even easier than the Ford 2.3/Volvo swap and there are even less guys doing it, and it could cost these guys under the $1K mark.

My final point to this is even a swap that could be considered easy by some or cheap that will make more power may not be done multiple times.

 

That being said, I don't know if an RB head is close enough to bolt to an L series, but if there is a head out there that is DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder that even with a fair amount of work would work on the L-series.......

 

...I'm sure that if an RB head was close enough, 1_fast_z would have used that isntead of mating parts of 3 KA heads.

 

....

 

I've been close a couple times now, but there's always one area that would take far too much to modify to work on the block.

 

 

 

I see what you are saying, and am aware of and fairly familiar with the Volvo swap at least; but my statement was intended to indicate that (at least as far as the varied attempts by many Z-car community members here and elsewhere) pretty much impossible to use an RB head without going completely external for cooling and oiling lines, which is absurd. I may be less than perfectly correct on the details, but the RB head just seems to be a no-go, and I think that in nearly 40 years of production, something would have been stumbled across before now. The first successful head alteration was 1 fast Z's, and my point was that duplicating his head with a single cast piece would likely be the easiest and best route to achieving our holy grail.

 

 

In other words, I don't think we really disagree that much.. I think its simply a matter of me having less faith in the possiblity of "finding something else out there" than you. I am all for that attitude; if you find it then GREAT, I just stopped believing in the possibility some time ago. Call me jaded

[Six_Shooter]

So, as a related question to what has been discussed....

 

The RB head has the proper cylinder spacing and head bolt pattern to work, it's just the oiling and cooling that has to be modified?

 

If it's really that straight forward as far as bolting on to the block, I'm in. Cam gears can be made or modfied FAR easier than casting a completly new head design, re-routing oiling and cooling is not usually that difficult, though cooling path changing is generally not for the feint of heart to attempt.

 

Is there anything that documents and attempts at putting an RB head on an L-series?

 

I just want to counter one point:

and I think that in nearly 40 years of production, something would have been stumbled across before now

 

I don't see that as being completly accurate, yes the L-series blocks have been around that long, but the technology that we are wanting to use or adapt in the stock forms they are have been around far shorter periods of time than that. We may just simply not be looking at the right offerings out there, and there may still be a head that will fit, with less modification. I've seen new adaptations to older products, just simply because no one had looked at combining those items until now, or a long period of time later, when you would have thought that it would have already been tried before.

 

I'm still looking to swap a different engine, because it will layout better in the engine bay with my plans, but like I said before if a high flowing head can be found that will mate to the L-series block, I'd seriously consider keeping the L-series bottom end.

[1 fast z]

Problem with the RB head also, is that it is about 1.5" to short on the back of the head. THe rear water chambers are not even close to being correct. The front timing components also would need heavy mods. Belt drive, would have to be incorperated, etc. Trust me I did look, and I actually do have an RB26 head just laying around.

[wherezmytofu]

so can i get another ball park cost for the cylinder head setup - valves?

[1 fast z]

I have already posted a ballpark price.

[nbesheer]

I have no technical know how but I just wanted to throw this out there.

What about a 5M head, or maybe even a 7M head (Toyota), I'm not too sure what all needs to match up but the 5M is a 2.8L strait six out of a Celica XX. Speaking of which the head that TonyD mentioned, which I first saw it I thought 5M. I'm not sure how much the 5M flows compared to the L series head, it has a timing belt though.

[1 fast z]

7m and 5m are the same family, and NOT EVEN CLOSE. You guys actually think I put thousands of hours of R and D into my head without reaseraching every possible angle .

[nbesheer]

Oh no, I knew you put a lot of research in, I was just curious about those heads. aside from the belt issue. to my untrained eye, they work lol.

[1 fast z]

About 3 inches two short.

[Mack]

Or weld some KA valve covers together??

 

thats the route Im taking. I just got done bandsawing 2 KA covers yesterday, hope to have them welded, sanded and painted by next week!

 

on the RB head issue, it would take as much, if not more modification to put an RB head on an L block as it would to make the 1.5KA24 head. I have an RB25DE engine in my possession (snapped timing belt, bent valves) and i still chose the KA route.

 

also, the mercedes 280C is a no go. 2 inches shorter than an L series (bore spacing is too tight) and all the bimmer I6s have diff head bolt spacing and diff bore spacing.

 

I spent years in pick a part type junkyards researching I6 engines when I ran across various engines and the KA method was the most viable alternative when I brought this project to 1 fast Z many moons ago, and still remains the best way to tackle a 24v head for the L6.

[PanzerAce]

thats the route Im taking. I just got done bandsawing 2 KA covers yesterday, hope to have them welded, sanded and painted by next week!

 

on the RB head issue, it would take as much, if not more modification to put an RB head on an L block as it would to make the 1.5KA24 head. I have an RB25DE engine in my possession (snapped timing belt, bent valves) and i still chose the KA route.

 

also, the mercedes 280C is a no go. 2 inches shorter than an L series (bore spacing is too tight) and all the bimmer I6s have diff head bolt spacing and diff bore spacing.

 

I spent years in pick a part type junkyards researching I6 engines when I ran across various engines and the KA method was the most viable alternative when I brought this project to 1 fast Z many moons ago, and still remains the best way to tackle a 24v head for the L6.

 

I believe the point of the Mercedes/BMW comment was that if we make a head, we should use an intake port design from Mercedes/BMW that has manifolds available that will bolt up to side-draft carbs as well as FI, depending on what the owner wants to do.

[Mack]

I was referring to the rumors about a mercedes or bmw head fitting on an L seires that have been floating around the Z car community for years.

[1 fast z]

You could not use a manifold system from a BMW or Merc, because they ARE 2 INCHES TWO SHORT, and spacing is WAY off. If you were to base it on a manifold design, RB would be the ONLY way.

[wherezmytofu]

bump for aluminum block update