MM rear brake kit arrived!

[ZR8ED]

It took about 2 weeks from the first email. The braided brake lines and pads arrived late last week, and the rest of the kit arrived a few minutes ago.

 

I'll have my new calipers in a week or more, and when I get started, I'll document the swap.

 

Currently I have stock rear brakes with braided lines. I don't usually mess with brakes due to the fear of dying because of brake failure, so this will be quite interesting to do this swap from a relatively "noobie" perspective. Not to worry too much. I do have 19yrs experience working with my Z.

 

I'll post once I get my parts together. I do fear I may get in the "while I'm at it" bug like I do EVERY SINGLE TIME I work on my Z.

 

Thanks Ross.

 

Scott.

[Guest bushmaster]

where do you get A right hand stre. box

[DavyZ]

Scott,

 

I'm looking forward to the writeup on the brake install. Which begs the question, "Which kit did you buy?" Methinks you bought a kit to match the brutal nature of your Datsun beast

 

I'll probably buy from Ross too when I get the chance. The only stopping me would be buying one second hand.

 

Davy

[ZR8ED]

I got the brembo 11.4" rotors with the adapters for the 240sx caliper swap.

 

I picked this kit for the ease of the swap, and the extra braking capabilities. I think the extreme package is more than I require for a mainly street driven car. Even with my current setup (ss flex lines, stock rears, and the SW12 calipers on vented front rotors, and a bais controller.) I was plenty happy with the performance on the race track.

 

We'll see how it goes.

Here is a link to the kit.

 

http://www.modern-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2&PHPSESSID=d4bad42f739a4f0a003b3338424020dd

[wigenOut-S30]

I got all of my stuff years ago, I am finally getting to swapping everything on, Just got the drums off tonight!! WHOO HOO.. what a PAIN!!!! now comes the fun part of cutting the backing plates off.. I needed to get some aggression out anyways hehe.. looking forward to progress pics Scott.. I'm taking some as well.

[GLENN280ZX]

Yeah, you didn't go wrong buying from Ross. His stuff is always TOP SHELF. And he is always willing to help in any area of the install. Looking forward to seeing your install.

[S30TRBO]

I am very pleased with the setup. Here are some links of the install and the issue I had with the rear brake line.

 

Initial install pics mixed in: http://www.putfile.com/album/139271

 

This is what happens when I didn't get the instructions to remove and or relocate the hard line tab. Result was under full suspension compression whammo: http://www.putfile.com/album/154669 Forum help: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126863

 

 

Custom 32" left side brake line from the caliper to the distribution block AND removing the hard line tab fixed it: http://www.putfile.com/album/157770

[bjhines]

You will really like the disks on the rear.

 

In my experience... the drums can grip hard with aggressive compounds, but they don't modulate like the front disks. I find it much easier to keep rear disks spinning. Drums just don't want to let go once they stop.

 

Another issue with the drums is that they tend to grow as they get hot... If you get race compound shoes, the drums will grow considerably as they heat up. This causes the pedal feel to change and brake bias shifts to the front disks which then get much hotter as they are worked harder.

 

I tried to use the rear drums for years with various front brake modifications until I finally got the 300ZX disks and 240SX calipers. It made HUGE improvements on both ends of the car...

The front brakes run cooler, and the rear brakes are more consistent.

[280Z Turbo]

You will really like the disks on the rear.

 

In my experience... the drums can grip hard with aggressive compounds, but they don't modulate like the front disks. I find it much easier to keep rear disks spinning. Drums just don't want to let go once they stop.

 

Another issue with the drums is that they tend to grow as they get hot... If you get race compound shoes, the drums will grow considerably as they heat up. This causes the pedal feel to change and brake bias shifts to the front disks which then get much hotter as they are worked harder.

 

I tried to use the rear drums for years with various front brake modifications until I finally got the 300ZX disks and 240SX calipers. It made HUGE improvements on both ends of the car...

The front brakes run cooler, and the rear brakes are more consistent.

 

I've been wondering about something. I quoted one of your posts about upgraded brakes on zcar.com and Tony came back with this:

 

BJ is running a full-on race car, and NOT a street car. That is a terribly misleading post when talking about a street vehicle.

 

You will also note that BJ recommended RACE COMPOUND FRICTIONAL MATERIAL (sound familiar? where did we hear that before? DS11 for over 50K miles thusfar...hmmmm?) for the best rear braking performance. his maintenance problems are centered around a RACING CAR, once again, not a STREET CAR.

 

Brakes are not as simple as people are making them out to be. And people have a terrible tendency to put words into my mouth that I never spoke. And for terrible mixing of contexts.

 

I really don't know if people are really simply that plain stupid, or if they really get offended by having impartial information out there simply to inform, rather than parroting marketing hype or playing monkey-see monkey-do. My thoughts are, of course, that the majority of people are just plain stupid. AT least that's been my experience...here especially.

Okay, most of that was just verbal abuse, but I THINK what he meant to say was that:

 

1.) Brakes really ARE rocket science and it's impossible to make "cobbled together" setups work as good as stock brakes

2.) There is no point of upgrading brakes unless you are doing endurance racing

3.) Stock drum brake setups are easier to modulate than 4 piston vented + rear disc setups

 

Thoughts?

[EMWHYR0HEN]

You will really like the disks on the rear.

 

In my experience... the drums can grip hard with aggressive compounds, but they don't modulate like the front disks. I find it much easier to keep rear disks spinning. Drums just don't want to let go once they stop.

 

Another issue with the drums is that they tend to grow as they get hot... If you get race compound shoes, the drums will grow considerably as they heat up. This causes the pedal feel to change and brake bias shifts to the front disks which then get much hotter as they are worked harder.

 

I tried to use the rear drums for years with various front brake modifications until I finally got the 300ZX disks and 240SX calipers. It made HUGE improvements on both ends of the car...

The front brakes run cooler, and the rear brakes are more consistent.

 

 

John, after you did the rear disc swap what front brake were you using? How was the balance?

[EMWHYR0HEN]

I just got done with the exact same swap. Here are some tips:

 

1. cut off brake line bracket and relocate it away from e-brake bracket. The frame rail above is a great place.

 

2. switch the right e-brake cable to the left side and left to right. It shortens the length of the cabe a little bit.

 

3. with everything connected and the wheel off, jack up that corner as far as you can safely to see if anything will hit/touch. once thats all clear, do it again with the wheel on.

 

Hope that helps. Good luck

[bjhines]

I have the biggest toyota calipers on 300zx vented disks in front(Hawk Blue 9012)

 

I have the 300zx rear disks with 240SX calipers(Hawk BLACK)

 

This has been the best balance I have yet found without going with Willwoods and big NASCAR type disks.

 

I am using the stock 1972 240Z master cylinder and brake booster.

 

All stainless flex lines and original proportioning valve.

 

 

I have tried Ferodo DS2500 compound on the fronts.. It was too slick to use with the Hawk Black rear pads. I was dragging the rear wheels too much.. I went back to Hawk BLue front pads and Hawk black rear pads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a pic of the difference between the small vented caliper pads and the large vented caliper pads. I don't think there will be any problem using the smaller pad sizes.... But the large pads are the same as the Z32 and Subaru WRX pads... They are easy to find instock with performance compounds.

[rudypoochris]

Okay, most of that was just verbal abuse, but I THINK what he meant to say was that:

 

1.) Brakes really ARE rocket science and it's impossible to make "cobbled together" setups work as good as stock brakes

2.) There is no point of upgrading brakes unless you are doing endurance racing

3.) Stock drum brake setups are easier to modulate than 4 piston vented + rear disc setups

 

Thoughts?

 

Considering that the post is out of context it is quite hard to tell what he is trying to say exactly as most of his post is in direct response to something someone else posted which is not displayed here.

 

What I gather from it in relation to what you think:

 

1. I do not think he is saying brakes are rocket science... sounds a lot more like he is saying there is a large possibility for one who doesn't know what he is doing to mess up an otherwise good thing in hopes of making it better.

 

2. I don't think he is saying there is no point in upgrading brakes... then again this is out of context. It sounds more like he is pointing out that BJ is running a race car and thus different rules apply.

 

3. I do not notice him saying this either, but it is not linked.

 

Maybe he is trying to say that the system must be viewed as an entirety and a whole scenario from someone who knows what they are doing. For instance I started my brake tinkering with the plans of going S12W front and 240sx rear... eventually I decided I wanted to run Wilwood fronts for various reasons (brake clearance, weight, brake fade, cheap replacement componentry). Then some time later I realized that the Hawk Black compound I ordered would pretty much destroy my rotors on the street... so I ordered HP+... then I realized that the 240sx piston area was only ~10% or so of my new front piston sizing and thus I needed more rear brake power. So I decided I would do Wilwoods in the rear as well... Now I am where I am. I am sure there is a lot I am still missing. Still trying to figure out parking brakes and a bunch of other stuff.... I haven't even driven the car yet either. Not the way a lot of people would advise me to modify the vehicle, but it is the way I have chosen.

 

Point being - we all may think such and such a thing is an upgrade, but a lot of the time is is quite easy to make a good thing bad by missing out on the little details. Unfortunately it takes experience, time, knowledge, learning, etc. to avoid said details. Just my 2 cents.

[280Z Turbo]

Considering that the post is out of context it is quite hard to tell what he is trying to say exactly as most of his post is in direct response to something someone else posted which is not displayed here.

 

What I gather from it in relation to what you think:

 

1. I do not think he is saying brakes are rocket science... sounds a lot more like he is saying there is a large possibility for one who doesn't know what he is doing to mess up an otherwise good thing in hopes of making it better.

 

2. I don't think he is saying there is no point in upgrading brakes... then again this is out of context. It sounds more like he is pointing out that BJ is running a race car and thus different rules apply.

 

3. I do not notice him saying this either, but it is not linked.

 

Maybe he is trying to say that the system must be viewed as an entirety and a whole scenario from someone who knows what they are doing. For instance I started my brake tinkering with the plans of going S12W front and 240sx rear... eventually I decided I wanted to run Wilwood fronts for various reasons (brake clearance, weight, brake fade, cheap replacement componentry). Then some time later I realized that the Hawk Black compound I ordered would pretty much destroy my rotors on the street... so I ordered HP+... then I realized that the 240sx piston area was only ~10% or so of my new front piston sizing and thus I needed more rear brake power. So I decided I would do Wilwoods in the rear as well... Now I am where I am. I am sure there is a lot I am still missing. Still trying to figure out parking brakes and a bunch of other stuff.... I haven't even driven the car yet either. Not the way a lot of people would advise me to modify the vehicle, but it is the way I have chosen.

 

Point being - we all may think such and such a thing is an upgrade, but a lot of the time is is quite easy to make a good thing bad by missing out on the little details. Unfortunately it takes experience, time, knowledge, learning, etc. to avoid said details. Just my 2 cents.

 

Sorry here is the link:

 

http://www.zcar.com/forums/read/1/1884421/page=1

 

I just feel that he goes too far in his praise of stock brakes. There is a reason why even lowly econoboxes have vented rotors.

 

I fully believe that stock brakes are fine for street driving, but when it comes to track days, I really think that you can benefit from upgrades when it comes to modulation, heat fade, maintainence, and yes even stopping distance (due to better bias).

 

Theoretical "woulda, coulda, shoulda" aside, I don't see why my new setup would be worse than my old setup. Sure, maybe I could have gotten away with some really aggresive pads, frequent brake fluid changes, and constant drum adjustments, but I'd rather have my brakes working at 80% on the track rather than 110%.

[280Z Turbo]

I have the biggest toyota calipers on 300zx vented disks in front(Hawk Blue 9012)

 

I have the 300zx rear disks with 240SX calipers(Hawk BLACK)

 

This has been the best balance I have yet found without going with Willwoods and big NASCAR type disks.

 

I am using the stock 1972 240Z master cylinder and brake booster.

 

All stainless flex lines and original proportioning valve.

 

 

I have tried Ferodo DS2500 compound on the fronts.. It was too slick to use with the Hawk Black rear pads. I was dragging the rear wheels too much.. I went back to Hawk BLue front pads and Hawk black rear pads.

 

 

Here is a pic of the difference between the small vented caliper pads and the large vented caliper pads. I don't think there will be any problem using the smaller pad sizes.... But the large pads are the same as the Z32 and Subaru WRX pads... They are easy to find instock with performance compounds.

 

I'm surprised that you have good bias since most people with S12W calipers say that they can't get the rears to lock up, even with the bias valve all the way open.

 

That's why I went S12+8.

[tube80z]

I just feel that he goes too far in his praise of stock brakes. There is a reason why even lowly econoboxes have vented rotors.

 

I fully believe that stock brakes are fine for street driving, but when it comes to track days, I really think that you can benefit from upgrades when it comes to modulation, heat fade, maintainence, and yes even stopping distance (due to better bias).

 

I have a friend that has the 240SX rears with stock fronts and 4-piston toyota calipers with good pads. We ran the car at several autoxes and it had completely rebuilt stock brakes that we on good shape. Then we changed over to this setup and there was a noticeable difference. We could brake deeper into corners and the brakes were very consistent. The balance for this setup on his car was very good.

 

So in this case it was much better than the stock setup.

 

I will add that the kit he got from MM didn't have any info about needing to change brake lines to make it work. We figured that out when we got into it. A quick search here seems to indicate that it's been a known issue for some time. So be warned.

 

Hope this helps,

Cary

[bjhines]

The stock brakes work well if they are in good condition. Many race classes are limited to using the stock brake components. There are many people who have gotten "ok" track performance from the stock set up. Those people who do use stock brakes on track must constantly deal with brake issues even when they do get a decent level of brake performance.

 

I tried nearly every brake combination over years of track use. There are a LOT of issues with the stock set up that are not problems with the upgraded brake systems.

 

The MM front and rear upgrades using the Toyota/300zx/240sx parts is a HUGE improvement over the stock system in all regards. There has been quite a bit of developement in the MM set up. Brake bias is not an issue in a properly assembled MM type system with proper pad choices.

 

I have seen S-30s at track events with all sorts of brake issues. It usually boils down to poor choices in friction materials and improper assembly of the brake components. I usually just try to help them get back on track and point out the mistakes that were made.

 

The 240SX(and others from Nissan) have incredibly complex rear calipers. They are not something you should attempt to rebuild yourself. Simple seal changes are not that hard... but getting into the rotator assembly is not something you can accomplish without specialty tools. Hell... just getting the 240sx rear inboard pads seated correctly is WAYYYYYY beyond most tinkerers. I have seen quite a few incorrectly seated rear pads causing MAJOR bias issues on track. Incorrect seating against the anti-rotation pins also bevels the ♥♥♥♥ out of your nice new pads.

 

People are quick to post issues about brake bias using various set ups. When it turns out that they hacked the install they don't usually mention that after they find their booboos. I think this is where a lot of these "bias issues" come from. Those who have bias problems and have done everything correctly may have weight bias or weight transfer issues.

[280Z Turbo]

The stock brakes work well if they are in good condition. Many race classes are limited to using the stock brake components. There are many people who have gotten "ok" track performance from the stock set up. Those people who do use stock brakes on track must constantly deal with brake issues even when they do get a decent level of brake performance.

 

I tried nearly every brake combination over years of track use. There are a LOT of issues with the stock set up that are not problems with the upgraded brake systems.

 

The MM front and rear upgrades using the Toyota/300zx/240sx parts is a HUGE improvement over the stock system in all regards. There has been quite a bit of developement in the MM set up. Brake bias is not an issue in a properly assembled MM type system with proper pad choices.

 

I have seen S-30s at track events with all sorts of brake issues. It usually boils down to poor choices in friction materials and improper assembly of the brake components. I usually just try to help them get back on track and point out the mistakes that were made.

 

The 240SX(and others from Nissan) have incredibly complex rear calipers. They are not something you should attempt to rebuild yourself. Simple seal changes are not that hard... but getting into the rotator assembly is not something you can accomplish without specialty tools. Hell... just getting the 240sx rear inboard pads seated correctly is WAYYYYYY beyond most tinkerers. I have seen quite a few incorrectly seated rear pads causing MAJOR bias issues on track. Incorrect seating against the piston pins also bevels the ♥♥♥♥ out of your nice new pads.

 

People are quick to post issues about brake bias using various set ups. When it turns out that they hacked the install they don't usually mention that after they find their booboos. I think this is where a lot of these "bias issues" come from.

 

Seating pads?

 

Explain that to me.

[bjhines]

OK... You have to rotate the pistons back into their bores to set them back far enough to intall new pads(if you have been using your E-brake at all).

When new pads are first installed, the helical rotator system can cause the piston to rotate slightly before the anti-rotation pins engage the holes in the piston. The pin will bear down on the pad unevenly. This leads to beveled pads and poor braking performance.

The factory shims are partly there to ensure this does not happen when first applying a new set of pads. There are many different shims for similar looking calipers. These part numbers depend on which caliper and which hanger you have. Many folks have no idea exactly which model and year car their calipers were removed from. I have different hangers AND calipers so I need to piece together 2 sets of shims to make this work just like stock.

 

I use great care to keep the inboard pads seated firmly against the piston until they are clamped tight. Then I exercise the E-brake handle to set the helical pins.

[rudypoochris]

^ I will second the complexity of the 240sx stuff. I never installed it, but I did get around to removing the pistons, disassembly, and the start of a rebuild. It got a bit complicated.