BlueZ31 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Awhile back when i was looking for ways to improve my N/A vg30e (which most, if not all owners are opposed to) i found an interesting site, hekimian racing engines (of which ive seen little discussion on, no doubt due to the *choke* $20,000+ price) He uses a process called cryosoaking in which prior heat treated parts are placed in a vat and indirectly cooled with liquid nitrogen in stages, which supposedly increases durability up to 400% AND makes the surfaces so smooth and nearly perfect that it reduces friction tremendously which of course, in turn translates to power. Hes got two vg30e motors, a 267hp @ 6,000rpms street at $8,900 and the 300hp @7,000rpms 240tq race mill at an astounding $20,000, all of which includes a ECU tune, prepped block and "expertly crafted" heads....pretty nice considering it takes a vq35 12 more valves and .5 more liters to make nearly the same power and same redline...but the even better thing is that he offers the cryosoaking treatment (at a price of course) on any clean and dissasembled engine or part specificaly and ive considered a vg33 buildup for some time, which should respectively (on comparison to the vg30e of the same build) make 330hp @ 7,000rpms with the heads and cams ive already had extensively worked, im just a little gunshy to this exclusive and unheard of treatment and dont know if it would be worth the $1,000+ to treat all the nescessary parts. Think its just a bunch of snake oil or a tried and proven true method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Well what happens is they put the block into a controlled temperature room, and over a couple of days to a weeks time they slowly lower the temperature to sub-zero levels to settle he block at extremely low temperatures. It allows the metal to contract and really squeeze the molecules together. I've heard people get great results with it, and wouldn't build an engine without doing it. And I've heard people saying it's not really worth doing because money could be spent elsewhere and assembly is what counts. but in this case, it could be part of "assembly" practices, because in doing this treatment, you'd have to recheck all your clearances, and it's really something you might want to do before going with the machining of an engine block. the vq35 makes 300+ hp at a much lower RPM, and is a streetable motor in all senses of the term. a 300hp N/A VG, or RB as I am building will be a little "on edge". But It sure as hell would be fun, and a torquey little thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryb Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Gear manufacturers use cryohenics to increase harness and toughness. Its not snake oil when done right..."right" being proper soak time and temperature. When done correctly its at least 48 hours in liquid nitrogen....-196C.... It is done to convert remaining austinite to Martensitic structure thus making the steel harder while retaining a level of toughness. Most of this conversion happens during heat treating but residual austinite is always present....and unwanted. Unless you are running at the edge I doubt you will ever benefit from this treatment. And careless is correct you should measure everything afterwards...martinsite takes up a different volume that austinite so in theory size change can occur. It should be incorporated into the design of the part....not an after thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueZ31 Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 True, im sure the metal contracting so much would cause all kinds of changes throughout the system, meaning it would probably require alot of custom parts like bearings etc....and yes im sure the 300hp vg30e is one helluva aggresive motor, probably too much for street use, but the 267hp street motor would do the trick, its just hard justifying 8,900 for a vg30e, even if it is built to new specs. Thanks for weighing in on my idea...i live right next to a Marine air base and a buddy of mine works in the cryogenics plant (mostly for compressed air parts on the av-8b harriers and f/a-18s) and had heard of this form of treatment through him, turns out the gov.t has been using it for decades, for parts like jerryb mentioned, gears and other high load high use parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 i've read of people using it for blocks and just end up machining or ordering parts that make up the difference. i've been told that the difference is like a standard and oversized bearing. so you'll be able to get the parts relatively easily. as mentioned before, some say they wouldn't build an engine without, others say you can't build engines properly if you need to use it. Toss up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 which supposedly increases durability up to 400% AND makes the surfaces so smooth and nearly perfect that it reduces friction tremendously which of course, in turn translates to power. Bullshit. Cryogenic treatment is a stress relieving process (primarily for steel) which further transforms a percentage of retained austenite into martensite. This increases the abrasion and chipping resistance of the steel and increases its toughness (ductility). But the 400% claim is complete crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyZ Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Bullshit. Cryogenic treatment is a stress relieving process (primarily for steel) which further transforms a percentage of retained austenite into martensite. This increases the abrasion and chipping resistance of the steel and increases its toughness (ductility). But the 400% claim is complete crap.Ya, no kidding - I've heard only 350% Actually, what is a reasonable strength increase? 50%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Low single digit percent increase in toughness (durability). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnitz Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 "Bullshit. Cryogenic treatment is a stress relieving process (primarily for steel) which further transforms a percentage of retained austenite into martensite. This increases the abrasion and chipping resistance of the steel and increases its toughness (ductility). But the 400% claim is complete crap" ----------------------------- I laughed when I read this. It is used as a stress relieving process and is primarily used to improve the toughness. This improves wear characteristics. If the material being stress relieved already has stress risers or "slip" in its lattive structure, then the cracks will propagate regardless of the martensite content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rejracer Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 The claim I have heard is that certain cutting tools last 200 to 400% longer when Cryo treated. This does not mean it reduces friction. As John pointed out an increase in abrasion resistance does not mean reduced friction, it means the part wears less as a result of friction. Wikipedia has a somewhat informative article on it. I've read better though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG58 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I feel cryotreating any part would have probably quite a small effect (in the grand scope of things) on the total yield strength of a metal, however the ability of the material to withstand shock loading is probably altered. I.e. how well a crank or rods can deal with detonation, providing it's the impulse of the combustion event that's breaking the bits and not the total gross loading on the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warbird Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 First of all, I will state that I own a cryotreating facility. I am also a metallurgist and co-chairman of the ASM (American Society for Materials) committee on cryogenic processing. A lot of things happen when you freeze metals to cryogenic temperatures. Yes, austenite is transformed to martensite and the martensitic crystal structure is bigger than the austenitic. (which really makes you wonder when some cryotreaters claim that they "densify" metals.) Other things like vibration, and heat will also cause austenite to transform. So if you put an engine together without cryogenic processing, the transformation will occur over time and really mess up your engine. Cryo also relieves some residual stress. Again, heat and vibration can do the same. That results in the part warping in use. We've seen untreated cylinder heads warp 020 inches in use. (I used to work for Fel-Pro.) In short, cryogenic processing stabylizes metals so these changes occur before assembly. So assembly is not everything. Careful assembly of stabile parts is everything. A lot of other things happen at cryogenic temperatures. Point defects in the crystal lattice structure change. The solubility of alloying elements decreases, causing them to do some moving. Vacancies in the crytal move out of the structure. Very fine carbides form, which enhance wear resistance. We think that we are making the distances between atoms in the crystal structure more regular, but that is theory at this point. Fatigue life increases. Yes, all of this is more important if you are running on the edge. And yes, you can on certain engines get a 400% increase in life. (We had a customer get 500% increase between rebuilds, and he was a national champion in his class.) There is a decrease in friction, but you are better off using a performance polish such as REM for that. Certain items such as valve springs last considerably longer. Our drag racing circle track and road racing customers get about a 600% improvement on valve spring life. And when you are spending $400 for a set of valve springs, making them last six times as long is a moneysaver. Is it snake oil? Porsche does not think so. And over half the NASCAR field runs on parts that we have treated. By the way, get your brakes treated as they will last two to five times as long. Cryo is worth the money if done correctly. Watch out for the guys with a dewar of liquid nitrogen and a styrofoam beer cooler. Go with an established firm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 First of all, I will state that I own a cryotreating facility. I am also a metallurgist and co-chairman of the ASM (American Society for Materials) committee on cryogenic processing.I appreciate that you've disclosed your biases up front. By the way, get your brakes treated as they will last two to five times as long. I see this is your first post on the site, so welcome. If you plan on spending time here besides just this thread you'll find that while we all have opinions, it's when people provide evidence to support them that the rest of us pay attention. Without some evidence or data to back it up, this smells like snake oil, I'm sure even you will agree. I doubt you're able to make claims like that in the ASM journals without data to support them and still be taken seriously. Perhaps you can provide some objective data that supports a 200% to 500% improvement in brake life? Skeptical as I am, I'd really like to be proven wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 By the way, get your brakes treated as they will last two to five times as long. True - based on my experience. I used to run cryo treated front brake rotors when I raced an ITS 240Z and when I raced the Rusty Old Datsun. The solid front rotors on my ITS car lasted much longer after cryo treating then without. For the two years I raced the Rusty Old Datsun the 11.5" x .781" vented front and solid rear rotors were never replaced and Bryan Lampe ran the same rotors on his VARA CP 240Z for another two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warbird Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Perhaps you can provide some objective data that supports a 200% to 500% improvement in brake life? Skeptical as I am, I'd really like to be proven wrong. I doubt you're able to make claims like that in the ASM journals without data to support them and still be taken seriously. Perhaps you can provide some objective data that supports a 200% to 500% improvement in brake life? Skeptical as I am, I'd really like to be proven wrong. We’ve done extensive testing on cryo treated brakes. We’ve tested more brakes than all other cryo companies combined. The tests were performed by independent laboratories that specialize in brake testing. Two different labs were used, Link Laboratories and Greening Laboratories. The brakes were tested to SAE 2707 Jul 2004 Method B. The results were that there was a two to four times life increase with treated brakes. We had brakes tested by the same method until they were worn beyond the service limits. The treated brake was 0.039" thicker than the untreated rotor when both were run on the identical cycles. The US Postal Service had Greening Labs test brakes that were supplied to it by vendors who wanted to sell brakes to the postal service. Many parameters were tested, including noise, pad wear, rotor wear, etc. Our brakes showed seven times the life of the second place Brembo brake. For cost calculations the USPS degraded that to 5 times the life. Remember, this was the USPS testing, not us. We now supply the postal service. We sell to many police units. They see increased life. A northern Illinois community went from getting 4000 miles on a set of brakes to 16,000 miles. A southern Wisconsin Sheriff's fleet is getting double the life as compared to OEM rotors. We sell to multiple fleets that give us similar data. A large manufacturer of brakes tested our process on their special police rotors. They got four times the life. (I can’t mention their name because they decided that they did not want to offer cryo treated rotors because of the potential loss of sales. I don’t want to meet any lawyers.) We currently process rotors for PowerStop. They also have tested the process via independent labs. We process rotors on a production basis for another large manufacturer who prefers to remain unknown at this time. Porsche has eliminated the need to change rotors during endurance racing by cryo treating them. Edited December 31, 2009 by warbird Quote appeared twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I doubt you're able to make claims like that in the ASM journals without data to support them and still be taken seriously. Perhaps you can provide some objective data that supports a 200% to 500% improvement in brake life? Skeptical as I am, I'd really like to be proven wrong. We’ve done extensive testing on cryo treated brakes. We’ve tested more brakes than all other cryo companies combined. The tests were performed by independent laboratories that specialize in brake testing. Two different labs were used, Link Laboratories and Greening Laboratories. The brakes were tested to SAE 2707 Jul 2004 Method B. The results were that there was a two to four times life increase with treated brakes. We had brakes tested by the same method until they were worn beyond the service limits. The treated brake was 0.039" thicker than the untreated rotor when both were run on the identical cycles. The US Postal Service had Greening Labs test brakes that were supplied to it by vendors who wanted to sell brakes to the postal service. Many parameters were tested, including noise, pad wear, rotor wear, etc. Our brakes showed seven times the life of the second place Brembo brake. For cost calculations the USPS degraded that to 5 times the life. Remember, this was the USPS testing, not us. We now supply the postal service. We sell to many police units. They see increased life. A northern Illinois community went from getting 4000 miles on a set of brakes to 16,000 miles. A southern Wisconsin Sheriff's fleet is getting double the life as compared to OEM rotors. We sell to multiple fleets that give us similar data. A large manufacturer of brakes tested our process on their special police rotors. They got four times the life. (I can’t mention their name because they decided that they did not want to offer cryo treated rotors because of the potential loss of sales. I don’t want to meet any lawyers.) We currently process rotors for PowerStop. They also have tested the process via independent labs. We process rotors on a production basis for another large manufacturer who prefers to remain unknown at this time. Porsche has eliminated the need to change rotors during endurance racing by cryo treating them. Interesting, thanks, that's the kind of info I was hoping to see. How do treated rotors affect brake pad life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montezuma Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Very interesting and informative thread. It laid dormat for 15 months than came back with some great contributors. I am now inclined to do more research, thank you warbird for taking the time to inform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warbird Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Generally speaking, pads last longer. We think that this is due to the fact that the rotors wear more evenly. Generally speaking, treated rotors are smoother when worn. They seem to resist getting ridges worn in them more. This gives the pad a smoother, less abraisive surface to run against. Therefore the pads usually last longer, up to twice the life. This of course depends on the type of pads. There are a lot of different formulations out there. Treating the pads will give you an increase in pad life of 10% to 200%. This seems to depend on the metal content of the pad, and again, there are so many formulations out there the only way to predict is to try some out. By the way, cryo also reduces warping and cracking of rotors. This has been noted in our lab tests, on the track and in normal use. Do not let anyone tell you that warpiong and cracking can be eliminated. As with any brake, run in is important. Normal run in procedures work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My experiences mirror what's posted above except I never tried cryo soaking the pads. Once I started running cryo rotors I never had to surface them again. They just wore down to the limits and maintianed a nice, smooth surface. BTW... I had a set of rear drums cryo soaked and the inner steel surface separated from the aluminum drum once things got nice and hot on the track. Made a horrific noise and the car got all woogy under braking. Once things cooled down in the pits I couldn't figure out the problem until I pulled the drum off the car and the inner surface fell out onto the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted December 31, 2009 Administrators Share Posted December 31, 2009 Without naming names, how does one go about choosing a cryo vendor? Are there questions that can be asked to weed out the pretender's? or??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.