aziza z Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Did you have all the injector connectors unplugged at the same time for your test? The way they are wired they could share some connections if you wired them just like the picture you posted earlier in this thread. If you test one but another is still plugged on it is possible you will see 12 volts. You are correct this is exactly what was happening. I had the same issue with the injectors was brief though, what worked for me is I put the injectors in a test mode in megatune. I think thats under tools but you are running ms2 extra I dont know how different it is. Anyways you have to power cycle the unit and make sure you dont set the opening close time too high you can fry your injectors. Than you can here them going off, you have to set the time,#times to open and close and pwm value. Be sure to set your MS back to normal from the settings. GOODLUCK and I dont think you need noid lights because in the test mode it doesnt power anything else and you can hear them going off> DISCLAIMER you are putting fuel in engine if you have fuel pressure I suggest release fuel in rail and it wont burn and i mean allot of fuel Isuggest releasing the pressure and dont run the test to long. This helped alot. thanks. this got inj2 to fire (injectors for cyl 1 2 3). However inj1 (injectors for cyl 4 5 6) do not fire. So i thought it was my wiring. Nope. Everything is correct. Theres even the right voltage at all the right places (2v on the - side of the relay board for the injectors and 12 v through the wire). Is there a setting i may have overlooked for the other bank? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just to see if it was an output setting or an actual injector problem I switched the ground wires for the injectors that came off the relay board. This got the 2nd bank that didnt fire before to fire, and the 1st bank that use to fire, to not fire. This leads me to believe that it is an out put setting specifically (inj1) So does this mean its a software error? Hardware? Could i hook all the - side of the injectors to inj2? They would all fire at the same time. Would this be bad? I saw a couple of people on the ms forum doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 12 v ok thats good but its ground fired ....it coud be software or hardware (still could be wiring) check again in injection control how much cylinders you have seleced. and is it alternating / simaltaneous and how many squirts per cycle OR it could be a hardware the inj driver output on one bank isnt working you can test this as well, first start with checking you wiring at the board make sure there continuity from injectors to behind the pigtail at the board (where the pin is going into pigtail) there lies the usualy wiring problems know what I mean? do this with a multimeter set it to measure resistance put one end red or black at the board at both INJ drivers for each one there are two, then put the other at injector plug ground of course. If you get 0 on multimeter you wiring is good. Check all 4 drivers. OK now you have injectors firing,.,,, could be the inj driver gone bad especially since 1 bank works after you switched wires and the other doesnt. Heres your temp solution for now run all the injectors to same bank under megatune under inection control run simaltaneous 1 bank I think that would work until you fix your driver for INJ on the board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 12 v ok thats good but its ground fired ....it coud be software or hardware (still could be wiring) check again in injection control how much cylinders you have seleced. and is it alternating / simaltaneous and how many squirts per cycle OR it could be a hardware the inj driver output on one bank isnt working you can test this as well, first start with checking you wiring at the board make sure there continuity from injectors to behind the pigtail at the board (where the pin is going into pigtail) there lies the usualy wiring problems know what I mean? do this with a multimeter set it to measure resistance put one end red or black at the board at both INJ drivers for each one there are two, then put the other at injector plug ground of course. If you get 0 on multimeter you wiring is good. Check all 4 drivers. OK now you have injectors firing,.,,, could be the inj driver gone bad especially since 1 bank works after you switched wires and the other doesnt. Heres your temp solution for now run all the injectors to same bank under megatune under inection control run simaltaneous 1 bank I think that would work until you fix your driver for INJ on the board All the settings you told me to check are correct.I hook all the injectors on inj2 (because that one works) and switch it to simultaneous injection for now to see it if it will even idle. However i am conviced that the relay board is the problem. When i test voltage at inj 1 (the driver that does not work) i see no voltage. If i test inj2 (the working driver) it shows .2volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Fail. Set to simultaneous firing. hooked it all to the working inj driver. Got the injectors to fire. Put in brand new spark plugs. Car still does not even try and catch. I got spark, i got fuel. No vaccum leaks, no ms errors. Im back at square one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Not necessarily. Fix your injector driver problem first of all. If you need someone to fix it for you, let me know. Are you sure you're getting fuel with them connected off the inj2 feed? Remember, the injectors are fed a constant hot and the MS switches ground to fire them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Make sure the injectors are spraying fuel. Make sure all the plug wires have spark. After that like I suggested before, try spraying starting fluid in the intake and cranking the engine over. If it starts and runs then you have to adjust the required fuel so the engine will start without the starting fluid ok. Your required fuel could be set to high if the plugs are gas fouled also so you may have to lower that number. I had to do this and after adjusting the required fuel it started without the fluid. You then need to set up your warm up enrichment settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 your next step is to check timing and when that is spot on lower your req fuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Good new internet people. Using stater fluid the car idled for 3 seconds. So i was reading over the manual. I got the injectors under simultaneous with 2 injections per cycle. Reading the manual tells me I could also use 1, 2, 3, or 6 squirts. Should I change this? or will 2 work? Required fuel has been calculated to 7.00 (3.5 per squirt if you will). 42lbs injectors, 168cid, 14.7 ratio. Injector open time 1.000 ms, battery correction .100, current limit 100%, pwm time 25.4, pwm period 66us. When i am adjusting fuel does it matter where I do it? (injector characteristics vs. warmup enrichment vs. fuel table?) Almost there guys.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noddle Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Good new internet people. Using stater fluid the car idled for 3 seconds. So i was reading over the manual. I got the injectors under simultaneous with 2 injections per cycle. Reading the manual tells me I could also use 1, 2, 3, or 6 squirts. Should I change this? or will 2 work? Required fuel has been calculated to 7.00 (3.5 per squirt if you will). 42lbs injectors, 168cid, 14.7 ratio. Injector open time 1.000 ms, battery correction .100, current limit 100%, pwm time 25.4, pwm period 66us. When i am adjusting fuel does it matter where I do it? (injector characteristics vs. warmup enrichment vs. fuel table?) Almost there guys.... My understanding is (I'm no expert mind you), you turn all the extra fuel bits off, ie warm up enrichment, accel enrichment, EGO controller Authority, IAT correction, you work on your VE table, work on the area to make it idle first, then the rest. I suggest you go here and do some reading if you haven't already done so http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/tune.htm when you finish reading it, read it again a few more times. When I tuned mine, to get it in the ball park, I had my son sitting next to me with my laptop, and he was making changes to the VE table as we drove, you need a wide band O2 meter for this. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Yep, this is where the wideband pays for itself. Turn off O2 correction, I always go in and set the active above rpm to something like 7000 rpm so no correction occurs. Then you can start adjusting the VE table for idle, light throttle and then start driving and tuning. Once all of that looks really good you can start tuning on warmup enrichments and ASE, etc. Also remember to turn off acceleration enrichment to tune on the VE table. It is best to follow the procedure in the manual. If you don't turn off the correct things or start tuning pieces out of order you will be re-doing it all. I have been through that cycle where I tuned and realized accell was on and had to re-tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Nice going Aziza, Now you need to try to get it to start without the fluid. You may have to keep adjusting the required fuel up a bit at a time to do that, as long as the plugs aren't getting fouled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Multiple squirts, divides the req_fuel into X bits and delivers it a little at a time during a cycle. Large injectors will have trouble dividing and injecting small squirts multiple times per cycle. They have trouble flowing tiny bits of fuel. Start with 1 squirt to get it running, then up it later to try it out. The benefit to multiple squirts is that the "squirt resolution" is higher and you can get better throttle response. AFAIK. Once you have it tuned on 1 squirt, all you need to do is try 1,2,3..6...etc until it won't idle anymore. Simultaneos makes all the injectors fire together, Alternating fires half of them but you need to fire the right ones depending on the firing order and injector wiring order. I'm a little foggy on this part but I wrote what I remembered. Mine stalls above 2 squirts using the 42# ford injectors. "Squirt Resolution" = better chance of squirting the fuel closer to valve open timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree with the previous comments about turning AE and EGO off for tuning. However, it's quite likely, especially if the engine is cold (<40F) that you will have to get some significant ASE (After Start Enrichment) going in order to get it to continue to run after the initial crank/start. Don't be afraid to use 50% or more at 40F. The number of cycles should be in the several hundred range which will equate to several seconds depending on how high the engine revs. Another things to watch for when you do get the O2 sensor: you can destroy one by running very rich for extended periods. The only fix will be to replace the sensor itself. It won't happen in minutes, but if you run for extended periods, it can happen. It happened to me, and I found a lot of others on the Innovate Motorsports forums who had similar problems. Another benefit of a wideband O2 sensor is using Megalogviewer to do the tuning. Basically once you get the tune "roughed in" enough so you can drive, use Megatune to capture a datalog while driving. Vary the engine range and load as much as possible. Then park the car and use MLV to analyze the datalog. It will recommend changes to the VE table. It's not very helpful for idle or very light throttle cruising, but for the rest, especially for WOT, it works pretty well. If you have the O2 sensor far from the engine like I do (mounted AFTER the collector of the 6:1 header) you will eventually want to use MLV with a multipass approach to dealing with the varying delay based on RPM and Load. But don't worry about that now - that's for another time when you're fine tuning. BTW, I only bring this up because you said this was going to be a daily driver - I wouldn't worry about it for a track-oriented tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I believe that MLV will ignore mixtures after an ACCEL or DECEL event when analyzing the datalog so you can use MLV for tuning with the ACEL features ON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Just remembered that you're using MSII/Extra. There is a pretty active beta trial going on right now for 2.1.0 that has made some very significant improvements in fuel delivery and I expect the next beta release will handle EGO much better. I only bring this up because 2.1.0 calculates fuel differently than 2.0.1 did, meaning that I had to retune the VE table. If you're going to stay with MSII/Extra, you might want to load the latest beta dated Jan 2, 2009 to avoid having to retune your VE tables. It's the best/most drivable release I've seen yet and I'm told the fuel calculations are not going to change going from beta to released code. That way you'll only have to tune once And if you decide to add an Idle Air Control valve, the 2.1.0 beta release is nearly as good as a modern OEM tune. Again, I only bring this up since you said this was going to be your daily driver. Obviously, first you have to get it to idle http://www.msextra.com/viewforum.php?f=91&sid=291b80c14ef381a7b4e4a6a6793b24dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I believe that MLV will ignore mixtures after an ACCEL or DECEL event when analyzing the datalog so you can use MLV for tuning with the ACEL features ON. That's true, but I've found that ignoring those datapoints can cause anomalies at light throttle portions of the map. For example, it will continue to recommend much higher VE values at the lower left corner of the map every time it's run. For the coarse tuning I turned AE off. Now that I have more experience with the tools, I leave it on and instead use my own common sense "override" on MLV's recommendations before accepting them. The fact is that a good VE table tune will result in rather small AE values. But if you start with larger AE values and tune with it on, the VE table will be tuned "around" that. As was suggested earlier, as a noobie getting started and still learning how the tools work, it's best to turn AE off while tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys. I have done what you guys recommended. That is: zero out the warm up enrichment, zero out the accel enrichment, turn off EGO controller Authority, zero out the MAT correction, I have updated to the latest beta version, changed squirts to 1 for now. Ill give it a shot and let you guys know what I find out tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 Alright people. The car runs. Sort of. It will start and run for a couple of seconds then die. If I rev it to keep it alive it will stay alive for a while. However after a while of holding the rev in one spot it gradually goes down and the car dies. It this the warm up enrichment? Car wont idle on its own for very long though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Can you post a datalog along with the msq file? What are the AFR values doing while this is happening? If you don't have enough WUE, then "reving" will become the source of extra fuel due to acceleration enrichment (AE). That might be what's happening here. I'm attaching screen shots of my WUE, ASE, and AE settings. Mine starts and idles from as low as 40F with just a turn of the key so these are reasonably close. Of course, these assume that your VE tables are well-tuned for idle and low-rpm light-throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 What is your timing at during idle?. What is your ve/fuel setting at idle? If you increase fuel in the ve table when it is idling, what happens?. If you decrease fuel what happens?. Make sure you don't have a vacuum leak. What is your required fuel setting?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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