PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 So just now I remembered an article I read about a year ago about a guy in India that had supposedly figured out how to make ICE engines more efficiently, run cooler, run with higher compression, etc. I looked for the website again, and here it is: http://somender-singh.com/ The basic idea seems to be that the groves allow for quicker combustion and for more turbulent air inside the cylinder. So, anybody actually try this yet? I searched, and these have been referenced a couple of times, either neutrally or I'd say 'guardedly' positively. But have any HBZers actually tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 My gut feel is it's complete BS. Maybe I missed it but where is the actual test data backing up his claims? "In god we trust, all others bring data" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I am also intrigued by this. So, having another p90 just lying here doing nothing, I figured I would give it a shot. What I am attempting is to see if I can increase boost by adding the Singh grooves. My bottom end is a 3 liter stroker that uses a diesel crank and custom pistons. The pistons used were designed so that they could be used in many different engine configurations thus they are not specifically for a turbo application. The main drawback to their design is they are flat tops that sit 1mm down in the bore. If you look at the Singh site you will see he says for the grooves to work optimally, there should be 2mm piston to quench pad clearance which is what I have with a 1mm HG. What I should have done was to groove my existing head and test, unfortunately I grooved the new head and also had it cleaned up to match the existing head. When I install the new head, should I see any improvement, I will groove the old head to make sure I see the same type of results. I will report my findings, whether good or bad, on this site. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UR50SLO Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hello... Scott here in Indiana... I found that the grooves do work in everything I've put them into. First is my 89 Turbo maxima with a VG engine. Here's the pictures of the inside of my head with the dimond cuts in them. My car's been 13.40's@108mph with only 13psi on 93oct. No Knock! 245,000mi on stock engine. 60,000mi turbo'd. THe downpipe is so cool you can touch it while running at idle no matter how long it's been running! I freak people out with it. Last year my fender was 145degrees and my downpipe was 117deg when running (With lazer heat gun) I'd be glad to share that with those guys if you want me to. Second is my 86 Camaro with Buick GN engine. I grooved the allum. aftermarket heads and have been 10.32@133mph on 93 with no alky/meth. On a Drag radial tire and a soft 7psi lanuch (1.51 60's) Take care Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I am also intrigued by this. So, having another p90 just lying here doing nothing, I figured I would give it a shot. What I am attempting is to see if I can increase boost by adding the Singh grooves. My bottom end is a 3 liter stroker that uses a diesel crank and custom pistons. The pistons used were designed so that they could be used in many different engine configurations thus they are not specifically for a turbo application. The main drawback to their design is they are flat tops that sit 1mm down in the bore. If you look at the Singh site you will see he says for the grooves to work optimally, there should be 2mm piston to quench pad clearance which is what I have with a 1mm HG. What I should have done was to groove my existing head and test, unfortunately I grooved the new head and also had it cleaned up to match the existing head. When I install the new head, should I see any improvement, I will groove the old head to make sure I see the same type of results. I will report my findings, whether good or bad, on this site. Joe I'm interested in how it'll go, especially the differences without changing anything other than the grooves, then once the boost is cranked up, just how much extra the grooves allow. Don't suppose you could pop the car onto a dyno before you change the head at all, after you put the grooved head on (without a change in tune), and then after a retune for the grooves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsicard Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The more turbulence generated within the cylinder/head the faster the flame front travels, the faster and more complete the burn thereby getting more energy released (more efficient) from the incoming air/fuel mixture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I would be more interested in what spark timing gives detonation before and after the grooves are added. Everything else held the same how much more timing can you run with the grooves than without? I was raked over the coals for runner higher compression which should also lead to cooler exhaust temps because cooler exhaust temps means less energy to spool the turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 moby, I think I read somewhere was that one reason for this was that you didn't *need* as much advance to get the same power, since the flame front is supposed to travel faster. So lets start figuring out some criteria for determining if this works when someone gets around to doing this on HBZ. So far it seems like in addition to details on the engine build, we'll need to know: EGT Idle speed? Timing advance (at highest power output) Boost achieved safely whp/wtq (with graphs) observed fuel economy? All of the above of course for with a non-grooved head, and then a head in the same configuration (polishing, porting, etc) with the grooves both before and after a retune. Anyone else have any ideas for what should be tested on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Back in the 80s, it was dimples........now it's grooves. Same theory but what I found was that deposits can remove them by filling them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I think it is a mute point for me because I have hemi shaped heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I think there is a significant difference between dimples and grooves, not saying that I'm buying either one though. When the piston comes up close to the head, I'm envisioning the groove acting like a nozzle squirting a stream of air into the rest of the combustion chamber. Dimples might help when the piston is coming up, but when it gets really close to the head I would think that dimples would trap the air. I'm interested to see if it works as advertised... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 When the piston comes up close to the head, I'm envisioning the groove acting like a nozzle squirting a stream of air into the rest of the combustion chamber. That makes a lot more sense. So that seems like it will only work well on some head chamber designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I'm interested to see if it works as advertised... Same here. If it ends up working great, well then I don't really care why it works (plus, I'm a history major, I probably wouldn't understand it anyways). I guess next week when I'm digging around in a PnP if I can find a pair of heads that are in good enough condition I'll hold onto them (rather than selling them) and start building a cheap parts turbo motor. Not so much for power, but just to shove into a chassis for testing to see if this will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 That makes a lot more sense. So that seems like it will only work well on some head chamber designs. Ya, looks like (from the head thread above) that the MN47, P90, or P79 heads are going to be the ones to really look for to try this on (or a welded up head, but that'll defeat the idea of a cheap turbo build to test with) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Thinking more about this, it's probably a LOT like tires forcing water out of tread blocks. I'd look to tires for inspiration on the groove shapes, etc. It might also be possible to put in grooves at angles to force a swirl, or at opposing angles to get 2 diverging or converging swirls in the chamber... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau M Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 If this works, why aren't the maufacturers already doing it? Its not like it would increase costs much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I also thought about groove shape. So much so that I started to question why I was doing this. I hesitated on posting I was going to give it a shot as I just didn't feel like hearing how it couldn't work from members more vocal than I. In any event, after looking at a lot of pictures there doesn't seems to be any "correct" way to set up the grooves so I'm just gonna wing it and see what happens. What's the worst that can happen? No additional power and a trashed P90? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I also thought about groove shape. So much so that I started to question why I was doing this. I hesitated on posting I was going to give it a shot as I just didn't feel like hearing how it couldn't work from members more vocal than I. In any event, after looking at a lot of pictures there doesn't seems to be any "correct" way to set up the grooves so I'm just gonna wing it and see what happens. What's the worst that can happen? No additional power and a trashed P90? Joe I actually almost didn't post this thread for the same reason, but I searched and realized that the only times that anybody had mentioned it, it wasn't being trashed, so I figured there might be something. My own thoughts on the design of the cuts: It seems that the design of cuts, in addition to helping swirl the mix, is that it provides an easier path for the flame front to spread, so a design that maximizes the surface that gets exposed would be best from what I understand. On our L series heads, there isn't alot of space to work with, but maybe one or two that spread from the center of the chamber radially outward. Heh, now I think I'm going to have to snag all the heads that i can to test various designs. Realistically, even if he gains aren't that great, or if they are in say EGTs only rather than any power, it seems like it would be worth it considering all the other work that people put into their Z cars. I guess if anybody does this, we need pictures of the cut design as well with all the other data so that we know generally what works best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I'm skeptical. I've never seen them on any professional race team engine from drag to road racing. This is an old idea that's been around at least 70 years (In my Miller book there's a picture of a machine turned combustion chamber on a Miller Marine 220). Modern combustion chamber design with a good quench does everything claimed for the grooves (or dimples, or hexagons, or swirls, or whatever). Its not snake oil, but its a band-aid for poor combustion chamber design. If you do things right to begin with, you don't need to do this extra work and lose compression in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UR50SLO Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I try to point the groove toward the spark plug if possible. I just use a hand file and mark them out some what even though the flat spot. (Like above head) I've turbo'd other VG 3.0's and even mine before the grooves you CAN NOT hold your hand on the downpipe. The idle is dead smooth. I get 25city beating the crap out of the car and 31mpg on the highway. That's better than the sticker said new with 245,000mi ! I've done this to several engines and in every case it helped. I chat with the inventor from India Sing often. I'm glad I read the article in Popular Science and experiemented with my Son's little 50cc Motorcycle one afternoon to see how amazing it really is. Try it if you don't beleve me or Sing. It doesn't cost you anything but a few hrs of hand file and sand paper. Cheapest mod there is. ~Scott. PS... I've been talking with Bernard From Canada (Very sharp Silver 280)for a LONG time. He wanted me to come over here and post my thoughts. Helped me with my programing on the Maxima. Coooool Dude.!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.