The Ultimate HID Headlight Upgrade the easy way!

[jacob80]

When you refer to "star ground," are you simply merging the two ground for each headlight together, then ground the single combined ground to a single location?

[RB26powered74zcar]

HID kits should only be used in housings that use true projectors. That housing you posted is just a H6024 housing with a fake projector lens that does not do anything. A projector magnifies the light straight onto the road while that housing uses a reflective system which is hard to control the light spread (and you can blind people). With REAL projectors you can control the focus of the light (light spread).

 

Here is an interesting video on retrofit HIDs.

http://www.danielste...onversions.html

 

Bi-xenon= high/low

 

I'm not trying to start anything here, but this guy sure has a firm belief against using HID in a non HID housing. Thoughts/comments??

 

(quoted from above link)

 

"

Now, what about those "retrofit" jobs in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't be fooled; it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff. In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.

 

As if the optical mismatch weren't reason enough to drop the idea of "retrofitting" an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs—and it is!—there are even more reasons why not to do it. Here are some of them:

 

The only available arc capsules have a longitudinal arc (arc path runs front to back) on the axis of the bulb, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a filament that is transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not on the axis of the bulb) central axis of the headlamp reflector). In this case, it is impossible even to roughly approximate the position and orientation of the filament with a "retrofit" HID capsule. Just because your headlamp might use an axial-filament bulb, though, doesn't mean you've jumped the hurdles—the laws of optical physics don't bend even for the cleverest marketing department, nor for the catchiest HID "retrofit" kit box.

 

*** A relatively new gimmick is HID arc capsules set in an electromagnetic base so that they shift up and down or back and forth. These are being marketed as "dual beam" kits that claim to address the loss of high beam with fixed-base "retrofits" in place of dual-filament halogen bulbs like 9004, 9007, H4, and H13. A cheaper variant of this is one that uses a fixed HID bulb with a halogen bulb strapped or glued to the side of it...yikes! What you wind up with is two poorly-formed beams, at best. The reason the original equipment market has not adopted the movable-capsule designs they've been playing with since the mid 1990s is because it is impossible to control the arc position accurately so it winds up in the same position each and every time.

 

In the original-equipment field, there are single-capsule dual-beam systems appearing ("BiXenon", etc.), but these all rely on a movable optical shield, or movable reflector—the arc capsule stays in one place. The Original Equipment engineers have a great deal of money and resources at their disposal, and if a movable capsule were a practical way to do the job, they'd do it. The "retrofit" kits certainly don't address this problem anywhere near satisfaction. And even if they did, remember: Whether a fixed or moving-capsule "retrofit" is contemplated, solving the arc-position problem and calling it good is like going to a hospital with two broken ribs, a sprained ankle and a crushed toe and having the nurse say "Well, you're free to go home now, we've put your ankle in a sling!" Focal length (arc/filament positioning) is only just ONE issue out of several.

 

*** The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" virtually always give less distance light, and often an alarming lack of light where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. The result is the illusion that you can see better than you actually can, and that's not safe.

 

It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong impression of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, worsening your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".

 

HID headlamps also require careful weatherproofing and electrical shielding because of the high voltages involved. These unsafe "retrofits" make it physically possible to insert an HID bulb where a halogen bulb belongs, but this practice is illegal and dangerous, regardless of claims by these marketers that their systems are "beam pattern corrected" or the fraudulent use of established brand names to try to trick you into thinking the product is legitimate. In order to work correctly and safely, HID headlamps must be designed from the start as HID headlamps.

 

What about the law, what does it have to say on the matter? In virtually every first-world country, HID "retrofits" into halogen headlamps are illegal. They're illegal clear across Europe and in all of the many countries that use European ECE headlight regulations. They're illegal in the US and Canada. Some people dismiss this because North American regulations, in particular, are written in such a manner as to reject a great many genuinely good headlamps. Nevertheless, on the particular count of HID "retrofits" into halogen headlamps, the world's regulators and engineers all say DON'T!

 

The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the entire headlamp—that is lens, reflector, bulb...the whole system—with optics designed for HID usage. In the aftermarket, it is possible to get clever with the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels, or to modify an original-equipment halogen headlamp housing to contain optical "guts" designed for HID usage (though it should be noted that "cooking" the lens off a composite headlamp, installing HID optics and re-sealing the lens creates major problems of its own, and does not result in a legal headlamp).

 

Please note: From time to time, I am asked to comment on what are marketed as "new developments" in HID kits, and those asking sometimes point out to me that these "new developments" might render this article out-of-date, since the copyright date on the article is older than the date of these "new developments". Please understand, marketeers will always be coming up with dazzling new pseudoscience, tempting new hype and sneaky new ways of trying to convince you to buy their stuff. It's what they do. This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation. Therefore, they cannot be overcome by additional research and development, any more than someone could develop a way for you to put on somebody else's eyeglasses and see correctly.

 

Daniel Stern Lighting (Daniel J. Stern, Proprietor) "

[jacob80]

Will these housings/lenses work with the HID kit you listed, FricFrac?

 

http://www.datsunrestore.com/h4_bright_white_kit.html

[RB26powered74zcar]

redacted

Edited May 14, 2010 by J. Soileau RB26zcar

[FricFrac]

When you refer to "star ground," are you simply merging the two ground for each headlight together, then ground the single combined ground to a single location?

 

Sort of. I run two ground wires attached from the single ground point on the fire wall. On the wiring harness for the HID lights has a ground lug. I found a nutsert handy on the body to where each balast mounts then put a lug on the ground wire from the single ground point and the ground lug on the HID harness and screw it into the nutsert.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/83602-star-ground-setup/

[FricFrac]

I'm not trying to start anything here, but this guy sure has a firm belief against using HID in a non HID housing. Thoughts/comments??

 

(quoted from above link)

 

"

Now, what about those "retrofit" jobs in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't be fooled; it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff. In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.

 

..... etc, etc....

 

 

Daniel Stern Lighting (Daniel J. Stern, Proprietor) "

 

 

Honestly this is what I think. There are a lot of valid points being made in his article (which I've read before). There is lots of good info but IMHO its a little twisted to serve his own agenda which is selling a particular product. Him saying that judging lighting performance requires a lot of sophisticated equipment is something I simply disagree with. I personally have the most advanced light detecting equipment which provides the most crucial levels of data required - my own eyes. You can jump up and down and say that the old candle/pie plate reflector lights running on 9V that the car orignally had is a better system than the HIDs that I installed. I don't care - the simple fact is that my eyes can detect objects at a much much further range with the HIDs. The temperature of the arc at .012 mm from the leading edge versus the angle of incidence blah blah blah doesn't matter if I can see a deer three hundred feet away instead of fifty with my old candle/pie plates. The cut off is crucial as well for the safety of oncoming traffic - that's what a lot of the concern with aftermarket HIDs is.

 

There is a lot of talk that is hard for most people to understand and it helps to make his case seem legitamate. I understand concern for HIDs being up to snuff but IMHO it pretty easy to see if you've done it right or not.....

[RB26powered74zcar]

I agree. After seeing with my own 2 eyes, I think you can get just as good results with a reflector as you can with a projector.

[bjhines]

The HID capsules were originally much longer than the filament in a typical incandescent. The light source was much longer and therefore much different than a short, horizontal, coiled filament. The projector was a great way to collimate the light from this longer emmisive source.

 

If these newer H4-HID capsules match the orientation and size of an incandescent filament then they will directly replace the incandescent bulbs in situ. You could take a picture of the H4-HID capsules next to an incandescent bulb and we can easily judge their compatability. Also take note of how the high beams function in these H4 capsules.

Edited May 14, 2010 by bjhines

[kamikaZeS30]

I don't have a true HID kit, but I did install these H4-type Xenon lights I got off of E-bay for like $25. Without any modification to the electrical system my headlights were a lot brighter. Since then I have installed the relay upgrades from MSA, now my lights regularly blind other drivers. Big improvement without all of the draw-backs and pain of installing true HIDs. Oh, and the kit comes with lifetime replacement for the bulbs. They're the flat-faced type housings, I'm not found of the round ones. They also have good weather-sealing.

 

I had real HID headlamps in my Integra GS-R, they were not terribly expensive, but it was a pain trying to find someplace in the engine bay to mount the ballasts and the end-product was okay, but worth the money and hassle? Not really.

 

The full name of the product I got is "MiiG MRC6024 Rally Euro-Cut 7" HID Headlight Conversion Composite Kit," if anyone is curious. I knew it wasn't a real HID kit when I ordered it, and to be honest, I like these better. Nice bright, white light without being too focused or intense like HIDs, I like the diffusion.

[FricFrac]

I don't have a true HID kit, but I did install these H4-type Xenon lights I got off of E-bay for like $25. Without any modification to the electrical system my headlights were a lot brighter. Since then I have installed the relay upgrades from MSA, now my lights regularly blind other drivers. Big improvement without all of the draw-backs and pain of installing true HIDs. Oh, and the kit comes with lifetime replacement for the bulbs. They're the flat-faced type housings, I'm not found of the round ones. They also have good weather-sealing.

 

I had real HID headlamps in my Integra GS-R, they were not terribly expensive, but it was a pain trying to find someplace in the engine bay to mount the ballasts and the end-product was okay, but worth the money and hassle? Not really.

 

The full name of the product I got is "MiiG MRC6024 Rally Euro-Cut 7" HID Headlight Conversion Composite Kit," if anyone is curious. I knew it wasn't a real HID kit when I ordered it, and to be honest, I like these better. Nice bright, white light without being too focused or intense like HIDs, I like the diffusion.

 

 

The main purpose of this thread is to increase safety by improving the lighting on your Z. Its critical that you ensure that your headlights don't blind oncoming drivers. Check the thread if you need a replacement lens to fix the problem. As I'm sure you know in a panic situation your car will naturally go to where you are looking so guess where a driver who is being blinded by your headlights is going to swerve too......

[kamikaZeS30]

I guess the term "figure of speech" escapes most people. As well, it was also a jab at the general "I want HIDs" crowd. As it seems blinding other drivers on the road is what HIDs are for-- due to the fact that no matter how well one's lights are aimed, if one encounters anything that would change the car's attitude or angle of incident (speed bumps, pot-holes, dips, etc.) relative to other cars on the road, one will end up flashing the other drivers. Food for thought. Unless, of course, one makes some kind of gyroscopic mount for them, which I doubt anyone here is going to go through that kind of trouble.

 

My head lights are aimed properly, they're really damn bright, though.

Edited May 22, 2010 by kamikaZeS30

[bens1088]

As it seems blinding other drivers on the road is what HIDs are for--

 

 

 

If you stare into any light it will temporarily blind you...

 

Also this is directly quoted from a study on HID lighting (I can post the study if you guys want):

 

• Recovery time is dependent on glare profile

– Correlated with the total glare dosage

 

• Under the conditions tested here, the discomfort

rating is not dependent on glare dosage

– Correlated with peak glare illuminance

 

• This may indicate a mismatch of driver

discomfort with glare recovery

– Drivers can be drawing wrong conclusions about how

well they can see after a glare encounter based on the

discomfort they feel

Edited May 22, 2010 by bens1088

[kamikaZeS30]

So what you're saying is that it's good to use HIDs because it only makes people "hurt" (or react or cringe or whatever) more when they're flashed, not because it actually blinds them any more? Sound logic.

[kamikaZeS30]

So what you're saying is that it's good to use HIDs because it only makes people "hurt" (or react or cringe or whatever) more when they're flashed, not because it actually blinds them any more? Sound logic.

 

So, we should therefore lighten penalties for people who commit murder with nerve agents, poisons or guns, rather than knives or vats of acid. You know, because it's less physically damaging to the remains.

 

Edit: How the hell did I end up double posting?

Edited May 22, 2010 by kamikaZeS30

[bens1088]

So what you're saying is that it's good to use HIDs because it only makes people "hurt" (or react or cringe or whatever) more when they're flashed, not because it actually blinds them any more? Sound logic.

 

So, we should therefore lighten penalties for people who commit murder with nerve agents, poisons or guns, rather than knives or vats of acid. You know, because it's less physically damaging to the remains.

 

Edit: How the hell did I end up double posting?

 

I was making two separate statements. The first was that your statement that "HID's are for blinding drivers on the road" is a very misleading generalization. ALL lights (halogen and HID) will distract you if you go over a bump and they shine into your face. Regardless if you use halogens or HID's you should be using proper housings that minimize this "distraction".

 

Secondly: If you read what I wrote carefully, the study was to back up my statement. The study shows that the discomfort is dependent on glare profile NOT glare dosage and that people often draw incorrect conclusions when evaluating their discomfort and falsely accuse HIDs of "blinding" them.

 

 

The forum has been weird since the change over. I double post all the time.

Edited May 23, 2010 by bens1088

[bjhines]

The issue at hand is the suitability of the bulb to the collimator type(reflector vs projector).

 

I would love to see a picture of the new H4 HID capsule next to a typical H4 incandescent bulb.

[akumazedex]

I've been running HID's with the normal H4 housings without any problem, good light coverage and not anymore blinding as any factory HID, only thing you have to do is adjust the housing down since the HID's are significantly brighter, otherwise you WILL be one of those people no the road that blinds on coming traffic.

[mistah mofro]

anyone have a wiring diagram of there setups? I was thinking of using a relay setup with the factory harness somehow. Just wondering not asking to spoon fed, I have mine wired to battery and fuse with a switch right now but I would like to use the stock combination switch.

[bens1088]

anyone have a wiring diagram of there setups? I was thinking of using a relay setup with the factory harness somehow. Just wondering not asking to spoon fed, I have mine wired to battery and fuse with a switch right now but I would like to use the stock combination switch.

 

Our lights use the factory harness and switch and a relay setup for the HID kit. I don't have a diagram but I can post some pictures. I don't know how helpful they will be. It should give you kind of an idea.

Edited November 14, 2010 by bens1088

[mistah mofro]

that helped a little bit, but its hard to identify stuff, I need to find out how to direct power to the headlights but I may have it down.