240K vs 240z?

[Guest Rolling Parts]

 

...'zee' just sounds so wrong

 

 

Precisely. I agree. Neither "zeeee" or "zed" is needed when simply typing.

 

The Datsun 810 (or is it now eight ten? ) always seem to me that Datsun copied the styling of American cars of the day. When it hit the streets you'd swear it was a late 70's Ford Fairmont in miniature and that original "skyline" picture looked a lot like an Australian Ford Falcon XB GT...

[DavyZ]

The skyline reminds me too much of this car:

 

 

...which gives me nightmares since I did own one back in the '80's. I called it the "200 SUX" (as in two hundred sucks...) for good reason: it did.

 

I suppose I'm trying NOT to see any resemblance to my 240Z and the Skyline

 

 

Davy

Edited November 13, 2009 by DavyZ

[Marine1342]

For the most part, the Asian auto market has copied American and European design. Hell the s30 was/is believed to be a copy of the Jaguar. The Hyundai cars resemble Mercedes, Bentley etc.

Asian markets have not invented many new items, more often they take already invented or produced products and perfect them. U.S. had one of the first LCD televisions, and Sony (I think it was Sony) perfected it to what it is today.

[HS30-H]

For the most part, the Asian auto market has copied American and European design.

 

Ouch. That's a bit too much of a sweeping generalisation there. What is "American and European" design? Are you lumping those two pretty nebulous concepts together and saying that they are the same thing ( versus "Asian" )?

 

Hell the s30 was/is believed to be a copy of the Jaguar.

 

Who believes it? You? What does 'copy' mean in this context, and how on earth can you honestly believe that the S30-series Z design is anything like a 'copy' of a Jaguar ( I presume you mean the E-Type? )?

 

Being influenced by something - even subliminally - is what design is all about. Anything 'new' you create will implicitly be influenced by what came before it, even if it was bad..... The designers / stylists who worked on the S30-series Z had admired some elements of the E-Type, but they admired a lot of other things too. More importantly, they wanted to make their own Sports / GT car rather than just a "copy" of something that was already several years old.

 

Asian markets have not invented many new items, more often they take already invented or produced products and perfect them.

 

"Asian markets"? That's a pretty broad sweep across the map there.

 

China, for one country, might not agree with you. Got any porcelain in your house ( I'm betting you do )? Ever use a compass? Read a book? Have cause to use explosives? China could lay claim to all those and many more. Maybe take a look at Joseph Needham's re-discoveries if you want to know more. The whole topic is very interesting.

 

U.S. had one of the first LCD televisions, and Sony (I think it was Sony) perfected it to what it is today.

 

Television I think is widely accepted to have been 'invented' by a Scot living in London. Not too much to do with the U.S. - so did the U.S. "copy".....?

 

I really don't get all this 'them and us' kind of viewpoint when the topic is - broadly - about 'design' and innovation. Does the world consist of 'them' and 'us'? I'm English. Does that make me a 'them' or an 'us'? And what are "Asian markets"?

 

Is 1776 some kind of Year Zero?

[frank280zx]

Haha ok Alan funny reply ..

Anyhow it is the same as brits telling me that Land rover was the first 4x4 .. actually it was Spyker

First mechanical 4WD (transfer case, drive shafts etc.) was built by the Dutch company Jacobus Spyker in 1902. Since the Lohner/Porsche four wheel drive has such an unusual status with its electric hub motors the Spyker is considered to be the world's first four wheel drive car.

 

Back on topic.... I guess ones viewpoint all depends on your roots as proven in this this post!! Next as it has been pointed out earlier this is an US based forum so will carry an US point of view.

 

 

Zee ZED Z ... it is all the same to me

[Tony D]

"Maybe take a look at Joseph Needham's re-discoveries if you want to know more. "

 

I think Frank needs to read Mr. Needham's commentary about 4X4 traction before giving the Dutch Claim to it...

 

The European "Golden Age" of DaVinci et al made a blossoming after the Chinese Delegation visited Italy in the early 1400's hoping to gain tribute from all the nations on earth. If they were too inept to find them, they gave them maps (sorry Chris Colombus!), and books on how to make all sorts of stuff. When you start comparing the blatant plagarisim of 'The Masters' from the Chinese Texts provided during these visits, all of a sudden the concept of "European Design" takes on a different meaning.

 

Hell, my "Asian Studies" Cirricula actually comes in handy! LOL

 

Needham... he he he... I feel so glad someone other than me used that Reference. I liked his concept of the "sleeping historical textbook interpreter"... Seems he picked up some particularly Asian Traits being there so long. I believe it was the Europeans that decided that a guy could only legally have one woman once 'married'...

 

Great invention, eh? NOT!

[Guest Rolling Parts]

.. Seems he picked up some particularly Asian Traits being there so long....

 

And Mr. K wanted a car for the USA market and then Nissan "borrowed" heavily from Euro/US designs and came up with the 240 Zee.

Yea, it can go both ways.

[Marine1342]

Well first off why the sudden accusation and negative tone HS30? My comment was in no way shape or forum a attack on anyone's country or origin, so why turn it into that?

 

If we want to go into detail as to who did what first and when we can, but I don't think discussing the perfection of gunpowder by China (or porcelain for that matter) have much relevance to this topic.

All I'm saying is that there was a time (in the very recent past) where Asiatic countries (those belonging to the continent of Asia) did mimic/copy/were influenced by designs of companies belonging or residing to the American Continent and European Continent.

 

Japan's economical state for example, was devastated after WW II (because of the 2 bombings and the war, which I don't think we should discuss due to very heated view points on that) that an American went to the Island and made some heavy suggestions on how to rebuild and improve their nation and its economy. Now, more than likely (since this is hard to prove) the Japanese people took these suggestions very seriously, since they're country was in such a weakend state that they needed any and all help they could get. They revamped their design and production and always kept striving to push the quality process more and more, to the point where Japan has become (in general) the leader in technology.

 

Look at Hyundai's car the genesis, does it not resemble a lexus or Mercedes-Benz?

 

This isn't a pissing contest or ragging on any one nation in particular, so your comment about "them and us" and 1776 being a "year zero" seems to be very directive towards U.S. hybridz members, is that what you were implying or am I reading too much into it? Is the year 1776 a comment towards the U.S.'s year of creation?

 

I never said that American and European design are in "one lump", but those are the three primary automotive designs in the world, American (The Big three), European (MB, BMW, Opel etc) and Asian (Subaru, Toyota, Nissan etc.)

And by copy, no not a direct copy, because that's infringement on someone else's design/idea/creation, but more of an imitation, possibly a very heavy imitation. All depends on your view point, as it is on everything.

 

The E-type is, what I think, to be the closest resemblence to the Z (or the other way around), so therefore is it not safe to say that designers of the 240z were heavily influenced, if not trying to imitate the look that the Jaguar E-type had created in Europe? Long nose, sloped back, two seater, coupe, sports car.

 

There are many types of Televisions, I'm talking about LCD (liquid crystal display), to which Japanese companies took the technology of LCD for Television purposes and perfected/expanded it to what it is today. Not once did I say that Europe had the first Television, or that American has the best products and that we are number one.

 

I do not think that going to the point that you did, with who did what and my countrie's better etc is necessary. I never said one nation was better than the other I was simply going for a general overview as to how recent history has happened.

[260DET]

There is no doubt that some early post WW2 Japanese car styling was heavily US influenced, the Mustang look Celica being perhaps the most obvious example of all.

 

But the Jaguar E type influence on the 240Z styling escapes me, except in a very general way. In fact to me the 240Z is about as individually styled as is possible, where there are other similarly configured cars in the market at around the same time. Similarly, the Z32 was quite distinctive, after that, well.............

[jerryb]

But the Jaguar E type influence on the 240Z styling escapes me, except in a very general way. .....

 

I feel the S30 was influenced by the XKE, but did not copy it. The long front end and headlight look.....

 

Saying that many cars took similar cues. Lets face it, car designers feed off each other. One style is an extaension of one or many others. Its all good.

 

Things gradualy improve and once in a while something very new hits the streets.

 

We could argue this around the skid pad forever.

[HS30-H]

Well first off why the sudden accusation and negative tone HS30? My comment was in no way shape or forum a attack on anyone's country or origin, so why turn it into that?

 

I'm interested in discussing what you wrote. To me ( and Englishman who has spent a fair bit of time in Japan ) it came across as a bit of fairly banal generalisation with a whiff of xenophobia about it. Certainly worth trying to pick a few holes in. Rude not to! This is a forum, after all.

 

If we want to go into detail as to who did what first and when we can, but I don't think discussing the perfection of gunpowder by China (or porcelain for that matter) have much relevance to this topic.

 

Well, you brought up LCD televisions, presumably as some kind of proof of your point (?!)......

 

All I'm saying is that there was a time (in the very recent past) where Asiatic countries (those belonging to the continent of Asia) did mimic/copy/were influenced by designs of companies belonging or residing to the American Continent and European Continent.

 

Yes, quite so ( and don't forget licensing, out of which many companies have done very well, thank you ). But such influence / mimicry / plagiarism has been going on since mankind first starting travelling. We all do it. To isolate "Asiatic countries" from the "American Continent" and the "European Continent" in this context - with the implication that this is some kind of DNA-governed trait - is to play with fire. Your post was certainly starting to play with matches, to my eyes at least. Perhaps I have a radically different viewpoint and perspective to you?

 

As I've said, your post came across to me ( remember, I'm not American ) as though you were drawing lines in the sand. Hence my "them and us" comments. If you were me ( just pretend - it won't hurt ) what do you think you might think in reading your comments?

 

I never said that American and European design are in "one lump", but those are the three primary automotive designs in the world, American (The Big three), European (MB, BMW, Opel etc) and Asian (Subaru, Toyota, Nissan etc.)

 

Ouch! LOL. Your three chosen 'European" manufacturers are all German. I think a few other countries and manufacturers ( holding some pretty heavyweight patents and innovations as their back-hands ) might have something to say about that!

 

The E-type is, what I think, to be the closest resemblence to the Z (or the other way around), so therefore is it not safe to say that designers of the 240z were heavily influenced, if not trying to imitate the look that the Jaguar E-type had created in Europe? Long nose, sloped back, two seater, coupe, sports car.

 

Hey, my house has a front door, a back door, some windows and a roof. How about yours? Come on, this whole thing about the E-type and the S30-series Z is just rooted in people trying hard to make connections. Historically - and this is the elephant in the room in this kind of discussion - people have wanted to make these connections because there is a subtext of xenophobia, where people seemed to be unable to accept that Japanese designers and engineers might be 'allowed' the same kind of authorship as any other industrialised nation. At least some of this is rooted in ancient prejudices, but in the mid Twentieth Century there was a little bit of propaganda ( on both sides, granted ) that is still informing the way that some of us think.

 

In reality, the Japanese engineers and stylists who came up with the S30-series Z were just as influenced by the zeitgeist of styling and design in 1966~69 as anyone else was. They were not trying to imitate the E-type ( why would they even want to? ) but were coming up with their own take on what a Sporty GT / 2-seater sports car in a certain ( low! ) price range could be, and that was governed by all sorts of influences and constraints. So too were the team over at the ex-Prince factory, who had come up with the C10-series Skyline range, and who had been given the task to design, style and engineer a successor to the previous generation of Skyline. Naturally, it reflected the zeitgeist of automotive design of the time, and if you half squint you might be able to see a few other design influences in it from rival manufacturers and other countries. It was a typical 'three box' design. Nothing really new, but a good package for the price. Job done, then. Not fair for somebody to call it a 'copy' of anything, I think.

 

See where I'm coming from? I hate seeing this 'copy' word when people start talking about the styling and design of these cars. I think it's lazy, and the people who engineered, styled and designed these cars never get a fair crack of the whip. For most of the time since the S30-series Z debuted we've been told that a German-born American was responsible for it, too. The whole situation is a real mess.

 

And Mr. K wanted a car for the USA market and then Nissan "borrowed" heavily from Euro/US designs and came up with the 240 Zee.

 

There's another pet hate of mine, whilst we are on the subject. Yutaka Katayama may well have "wanted a car for the USA market", but as far as the guys back at Nissan were concerned they were designing cars for the World market as well as their own home market. Their biggest single market was still Japan, and they were certainly not designing and manufacturing any particular series of cars exclusively for the USA market. The stories about the Z being "for the USA" are based on NMC USA's advertising, and Japan was going to have a new Nissan sports / GT car to supersede the Fairlady Roadsters no matter what Katayama is reported to have said he wanted. In the meantime, he was doing pretty damned well selling compact sedans and little pick up trucks like hot cakes, wasn't he?

 

This talk of "Euro/US" designs being "borrowed" ( as though the designs had passports or something ) is faintly ridiculous. At the time we are talking about, everybody was being influenced by everybody else and nobody had any intellectual rights over anything so nebulous as styling anyway. It's hard enough trying to understand what came from where even when looking just at USA-based car styling ( which appears to have been influenced by Italian design in particular, whilst Italian design was being influenced by what it saw in American design, and so on ad infinitum.... ) without bringing some kind of implied xenophobia into it, as though Japanese stylists, engineers and designers were somehow not allowed to play on the same pitch as everybody else.

 

 

 

Whilst I'm in full flow ( OK - I'll shut up in a line or two ) shouldn't we be defining the subject of the thread a little more precisely. The '240K' Skyline was an export model in the C110 Skyline range, and it hardly seems fair to compare it with the "240Z" - which first of all was not a fixed-spec model ( Domestic, European, Australian and north American models were all quite different ) and the two were not contemporary anyway. A comparison with the C10-series Skyline might be more pertinent and certainly a lot fairer, but even then we'd be comparing apples with oranges........

 

And Frank, those 'Brits' who think the Land Rover was the first 4x4 are obviously mad. Are you hanging around with some of the wrong people?

 

Tony, I'm sure you could have a girl in every port if you wanted one. A 'Research Assistant' for every language, and every occasion. Needham would give you a Cambridge University research grant to pay for it!

 

OK, I'll shut up for a little bit now. Peace!

Alan T.

[jerryb]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xenophobia

 

Thank you for the word of the day Alan.........I had no clue.

[Marine1342]

Well didn't mean to give off the impression that I'm drawing lines in the sand, my dads european, my moms peruvian/japanese and I've lived in France for a while, so this them and us doesn't mean anything to me particularly. I've just seen cars that resemble other cars from other markets.

And I think that the "240k" has some distinct features that look very closely, if not were shared with the S30.

But anyhow, Alan, points well taken, and by no means were my original comments made to single out any one person, country, or continent for that matter. Just a view point from my location.

[frank280zx]

I have to agree with Alan that it is the 'zeitgeist' of the time, celicas 2000gts, mgb's and fairlady roadsters, s30's, the bleubird (or 510) and the fiat 128.. they all have that same look and feel.

Cars from teh same company would most definatly share styling.. as mostly they where drawn from the same hands.

It is much like the modern volkwagens, seats and alfas they all share styling, and within the brand it is hard to tell the diffrence between a Jetta and a Passat.

 

And as for that diffrent port thing.... dont give tony ideas, he has allot of ports coming with his job