I'm bait for EFI, I'm just too scared. Help me get over my Megasquirt fear

[josh817]

Alright guys, I'm being intrigued by EFI. I'm using a set of triple carbs right now and yah thats all fun and stuff and I love how everything is mechanical. I don't worry about jet prices because if and when I go to mess around with that, I use 2 sets and just solder/ream a set to whatever I want. They are really cool and such but I mean stuff that you can't do on your own at home, like change your own venturis, because you have to buy sets of 6 at $20, no fun.

 

I've been lurking around all day on here and DIYauto or whatever and it looks exciting but I'm going to admit, I'm use to being spoon fed when it comes to wiring. I mess around with Megajolt and they have entire schematics all nice and pretty for you and stuff. I know there are places that do the same thing for MS but thats my point... there are places not like a main central place. From what I read in the MS intro guide, MS is open to anyone so whats killing me is that there is so much stuff you can do with it leaving a great big space for error on mix matching firmware, software, installation, parts, etc.

 

Its exciting, very exciting to think about, but thats AFTER you get over the initial installation headaches. What I don't like about it is like I said, its open source stuff and if something goes wrong my Z is my daily driver so I would need answers NOW and I would probably wind up doing a repost on something trying to get help.

 

Whats highly confusing is that I've read up say for instance on trying to get a tach to work on the tach out. Lets just use that as an example since I'm doing my thing on Megajolt and EDIS and its pretty much the same as you guys with MS. Someone comes up with a solution, great! But then you have a 50% success rate with others. Electronics should be black and white, either it works or you did something wrong, so why are there people where it sometimes doesn't work damnit?! Its that ♥♥♥♥ that freaks me out. Diving into something thats not just ignition, but fuel to?! Holy cow, I can see myself in that situation where someone presents a solution and it somehow doesn't work for me even though I follow the directions word for word. Then my car and I are left ground until I can get it to work?! Golly. Not to mention I don't have the funds to be able to screw around with different techniques and go "oh well, I burned up another coil/injector/whatever, get another one"

 

My party is being pissed on by my fears of total chaos. I would say get Dad, the EE to help me but these days with my step mom and troubled step brother, I get put on the back burner. For instance, the other day I had a question about the wiring for my Megajolt. I ask him, he starts talking and the troubled step brother interrupts and persists until he gets what he wants. If my step mom interrupts, she requires the attention otherwise she'll be like "why do you treat me like that". My direct electrical help source has disappeared and if I have any questions I have to search a while to find it and like I said, when this car is my daily driver, I can't run into a situation where it will take several days of searching to fix it.

 

Maybe I should just stick with messing around on carbs... Theoretically, once you have them tuned you apply the "Don't ♥♥♥♥ with something thats working perfectly fine" rule and I should be ok. Have a jet set for summer and a jet set for winter since here in Texas the temperature range is ridiculous. I'm just getting kind of tired not being able to relate to you guys who are running cool sophisticated computers, yet I'm happy I don't have the nightmares that hit some of you every once and a while...

 

Thanks guys.

[PanzerAce]

I'm kind of the same way. My Z is my DD, and I've got *no* backup, at all (well, I do...but it doesn't have an engine or interior yet). I want to go electronic for the increased ease of use and economy, but as it is, I just can't let my car be down for the length of time that I suspect I would take to get the damn thing running. Hell, I don't even bother changing jets b/w seasons (~35F right now, summers will hit 110+), I just retune as much as possible, and leave it at that (though that is why I'm considering switching to a Holley setup)

 

I don't suppose there are any guys on here that could either put together a "HBZer MS Kit" or something similar for those of us that want MS controlled L series engines, but don't have the time/knowledge to do a complete install/wire up/assembly ourselves.

[Tony D]

"Electronics should be black and white, either it works or you did something wrong, so why are there people where it sometimes doesn't work damnit?! "

 

Don't ever take a job in the Technical Services, or Engineering Field Service Department anywhere, you will string yourself up and they will find you like David Carradine in Bangkok!

 

Just a suggestion: KISS

 

Run basic megasquirt, using someone's proven setup and tables. THEN get fancy. MS-n-Se on a MS 1 works FINE. The rest of the stuff is for people who WANt to play around with crap. Let them. Learn the basics and get comfortable with it first. MS is not the only system out there, likely you will find systems costing 4X as much with many of the same issues...

 

99.9999% of any of the problems is due to initial installation (same almost with anything)... If you get it right on the install, it's downright boring because it just starts and runs. My 260ZT with MS sits for 3+ months at a stretch and it fires up bettern the stock EFI I got on the other car sitting for half that long!

[S130Z]

I just did my MSII install and I admit that I made a mistake on my install. I bought everything preassembled so I knew I couldn't mess up on the board. Be carefull when wiring in your shielded wire for your dizzy, don't let the sheilding touch your solder or the wire(you will end up with no tach signal in MS). That problem stumped me for days. One sugestion to you, read the MegaManual. Go through the configuration part first. There are things you have to change outside the actual MegaTune program to get things the way you need them. I made the mistake of reading after I got it started and tryed to tune it.

 

Over all it's really not that bad, pretty simple actually. There is tons of information availble for it to make the install a breeze. And if you do go with it and have a problem, shoot me a PM and I will do my best to help you out.

[Guest Rolling Parts]

If you're moving from carbs to EFI, Megasquirt is a nightmare incarnate:

1) EFI injectors, pump, tank, regulator, intake manifold, Alternator upgrade.

2) EDIS welding of trigger wheel, fabbing up a VR pickup, coil mount.

3) MS building, testing, programming, sensors, resistor pack, install, wiring.

4) Install a WB O2 sensor (with it's own AFR gauge) and then tune the engine with the Megasuirt unique software interface.

 

When done, you have the same power as the original carbs but have added 100 new points of failure to the car.

 

If you want the badge of honor and one hell of a learning experience, then Megasquirt is ideal. Beyond that, it's a bit pointless on a non-turbo stock L28 daily driver.

[ZR8ED]

Hey I hear ya.

 

I ran triple webers, and there was nothing short of a cracked carb body that could strand me, and with my spares, even that couldn't stop me for more than a couple of hours.

 

Yet here I sit. Turbo charged with Megasquirt and Spark. Ok I cheated a bit. I bought the entire kit. Assembled boards, the works. I NEEDED it to work with minimal fuss.

 

Some advice.

 

1 Read the mega manual, and our megasquirt forum for a few DAYS.

 

2 Talk to the guys at DIYAuto. They will recommend the board, firmware etc that will work for YOU and YOUR setup.

 

2a. download appropriate megatune program on your computer and look around and get familiar with it.

 

3 find others in your area with MS experience. Talk to them, check out their setups, see if they can help you, or at least give you additional advice

 

4 Buy preassembled kit. Buy wiring kit etc. Even a better idea since you are coming from carbs.

 

5 Clean clean clean everything before you start, including your work area/bench.

 

6 make sure the REST of your car is working properly (electrics, fueling etc)

 

7 take pictures, label as much as you can

 

8 don't rush to get the car started. Make sure all connections are properly done. It is not that many wires. Make wiring neat..don't fall into the "I'll clean up the wiring later" It makes troubleshooting much easier.

 

9 Relax. Set up the initial conversion when you have time, maybe an abiltiy to car pool, or borrow a car whether you get the car to run or not just to take the pressure off getting it to run to go to work the next day.

 

Or skip it all and pay someone to do it and rent another car. Not the most practical though.

 

Good luck with it!

[woldson]

If you're moving from carbs to EFI, Megasquirt is a nightmare incarnate:

1) EFI injectors, pump, tank, regulator, intake manifold, Alternator upgrade.

2) EDIS welding of trigger wheel, fabbing up a VR pickup, coil mount.

3) MS building, testing, programming, sensors, resistor pack, install, wiring.

4) Install a WB O2 sensor (with it's own AFR gauge) and then tune the engine with the Megasuirt unique software interface.

 

When done, you have the same power as the original carbs but have added 100 new points of failure to the car.

 

If you want the badge of honor and one hell of a learning experience, then Megasquirt is ideal. Beyond that, it's a bit pointless on a non-turbo stock L28 daily driver.

 

Dude, you got to quite being such a downer.

 

Everything (I mean everything!) has it's learning curve.

 

Everyone you get past only makes you stronger/experienced.

 

With wisdom, you will find that it was the journey that was the fun part and the met goal was really only icing on the cake that can get boring quickly.

 

 

Josh, considering where you seem to be leading your life, this is somthing you should endevor in, stepping forward is a good thing.

 

I have read threads from guys that really know carbs and they can be quite complicated to get dialed in correcty. They are trully works of art.

 

As for injection, my 2ct., well you don't see carbs much anymore. (just an opinion)

 

Regardless, get into the ms section of this forum and start reading untill you start to feel more comfortable. You don't have to concoquer this hill tommorrow.

 

Peace.

[Guest Rolling Parts]

Dude, you got to quite being such a downer.

Everything (I mean everything!) has it's learning curve.

 

I just did a rough outline of what's is involved in a carb to a MS/EDIS conversion. Sure I left out the 3-4 diodes on the tach setup from the EDIS coil pack (oh and the change to a 280Z tach mechanism) but which point did I get wrong?

[woldson]

I don't doubt your technical abilities, hence, I made no such comment.

[Guest Rolling Parts]

I don't doubt your technical abilities, hence, I made no such comment.

 

This is a big project so I made an informed summary (since I've done 2 before). You do give up reliability when going MS/EDIS and that's also an important item when one is relying on a car as a daily driver. Good reliable information is not a downer in my book. MS/EDIS is better suited if he was going for a hobby car and adding a turbocharger for a fun learning experience. That's the best niche for playing with roll-your-own EFI controllers (i.e. that way it's fun and not a need).

 

EDIT: The "wisdom" that I found on the MS journey was there all along: MegaSquirt® and MicroSquirt® controllers are experimental devices intended for educational purposes

[woldson]

At this time I need to stop in order for Josh to have some room here, sorry man;)

[josh817]

I agree with all of you. I agree with Woldson on the carbs... Thats one thing that scares me too, "one day they will be gone" but I mean, so will EFI one day... I think? I also agree with Rolling Parts. You're introducing many new things, sensors, which can all go faulty. Most of them are pretty cheap to replace but you have to find the problem first. And yes, I also agree on the do it right the first time. I was crapping my pants the first time we started up my motor because I kept looking back to the time when a friend of my dads started up his Vette engine for the first time and it puked all of its fluids onto the floor. I had little silly problems like the water out fitting which screws into the block and goes to the heater. I never put sealant on it and it and yah it leaked, I overheated, refilled and fixed. Easy fix because I could see it right there! Example, oh hey, my throttle doesn't work, I wonder why? Pop the hood, linkage is broken. I mean seriously obvious stuff when you have this barebones stuff.

 

I already have nightmares about my Megajolt because I did the board myself, pretty sure I burned it in spot. The wiring is minimal which tricked me into thinking it would be fun to do it and such. I went to read on what gauge wire they have me using, it says like a 14-16 gauge wire for coil power coming out of the MJ... They give you like a 12 pin molex connector, and you're suppose to hook the wire onto the barbed pin, stick it in the connector and you're set. How do I... fit a 16 gauge wire... on a tiny pin?! What the hell?! Ok so now I'm picturing that, but with twice as many wires, because I only have like 10 wires that I'm using here...

 

We all know that when it comes to the wiring, it is highly preferred that we do it ourselves so if and when something goes wrong you can search through your own work rather than someone else "mess". However, that leaves you open to errors... and those will melt things, and cause fires sometime, and thats a serious thing that I don't want to mess with. I already know that I will buy a premade board if I went that route, but as stated above, they have tons of extra stuff you can add on. I'm not looking for 10 outputs, give me a tach, give me maybe a shift light, a rev limiter, fuel control, and EDIS ignition control, I'm good.

 

Oh and it doesn't help to think that I initially sold ALL of my turbo stuff to build what I have now. I HAD the MSII and harness, write up, etc.

 

DOH! Haha

 

Like you guys said, some things will need changing physically to be able to install MS. I'm all for the idea, but I baby this car. I don't want to get into the whole Z spirit, keep it original crap, this is hybridz and that would be breaking one of the rules too. All I'm saying is, as a 240, I don't want to put like a wide body kit on it, I still have serious consideration of flares but that requires cutting. I had serious considerations for other changes too but those changes would be permanent. Ok so MS probably won't be a permanent change, but the wiring... splicing into the original harness and all that nasty stuff. Eh.... Its either time for me to man up or get off the pot.

 

Perhaps I just save all this stuff for a later time... Maybe I just go ahead and put a ton of ♥♥♥♥ on my 240 and don't worry about how original. I'm not even original right now, I'm mediocre. I have gauges from 280's, MSA Type III air dam, for godsake I already drilled holes in the hatch to put on the spoiler. This stuff won't depreciate the value, it looks cool, and its affective. Can you see I'm trying to talk myself into this...? Its going to happen eventually. I'm already starting to commence Project WTF and buying some KA24DE heads... along with a few other goodies...

:icon15::icon15:

Because I have a personal vendetta against Brian (1 fast z). Woops, I mean... I have the resources here at school now! Yah yah, thats what I meant.

 

Thanks for the help guys. I won't do the conversion right now. I'll do it later on when I'm not a student with other needs. Wait until my Z is a second car, and until carb stuff starts disappearing. Unless if I all of a sudden consider wiring up stuff fun, I'm going to have to be shoved into MS I think. I do like making my engine bay all nice and handsome though! Organizing and cleaning is a wonderful thing to do! Get rid of your messy engine bays, HBZers!

[Guest Rolling Parts]

MS is a great "side project" to build while still in school. You can build up the kit and and the stim board to simulate inputs and get familiar with the software. You can even wire up the EDIS to run in test mode by playing a windows media file to it (http://www.heggs.co.uk/vrssim/index.htm).

 

The whole works from kits, sensors, wiring and used EDIS parts will cost around $450 all up and is completley pay-as-you-go as you build it. It also does not take up a lot of space and won't down your car while you're playing around with it. That keeps it fun. Once it works reliably on a bench and you're a pro at the software, you can decide if you want to go further with it. If nothing else, you'll get over your initial fear of circuits and wiring with zero downtime on the Z...

 

Best of luck!

[evil_datto]

If you were able to get your hands on a dirt cheap EFI Z for the few parts you need and then sell the rest off once you're completed the install, then the nightmare of trying to add in all the EFI stuff wont be so daunting. You have reference to where everything is located and you can see how everything was wired to work originally.

 

It would be a big undertaking - actually basically the same as simply converting from carbs to normal Z EFI really, possibly easier because you don't have to mess around with all of the crap on the intake manifold.

 

I do agree you can add a few failure points, but really if you do it right and do it well you don't have much to worry about. If you basically copy everything someone else has already done (who's setup runs well) you don't have much to worry about (use same parts, mount & wire things similarly).

Personally, I think it could be easier if you were to start off using the zx ignition components rather than EDIS. I think it could be easier upgrading from your current z ignition components to say the '82/83 zxt ignition module, coil & dizzy(CAS).

 

I'm actually about to start setting up MSII soon. I'm sending my unassembled unit to my uncle to be soldered together, even though I can solder, he will do much better job which will give me more peace of mind. An assembled unit would be much more ideal if you can afford it, and the stim kit would remove half of your worries since that can tell you if something is wrong on the board side.

 

Go ahead and take the plunge!

[FlatBlack]

Ok so MS probably won't be a permanent change, but the wiring... splicing into the original harness and all that nasty stuff. Eh.... Its either time for me to man up or get off the pot.

 

What part of MegaSquirt requires splicing into the stock harness?

 

I have MS switched on with the Rear Defogger Switch on the centre console, and MS has its own harness that plugs into the relay board.

 

There was no splicing in my car, the only reason you'd do that would be to switch it on with the key I guess, but even then it's just one wire.

 

I'd say go for it, honestly it's not that hard to do, and you can have it done pretty quickly if you have all of the parts set up before hand. The great thing about having carbs though, you could throw them back on if anything catastrophic happened with MegaSquirt.

 

Just my $0.02, I was very intimidated my MS before I did it as well. It's worth it though.

[S130Z]

Personally, I didn't even deal with the relay board. I just bought two relays and wired them up via the diagram given in the harness from MS. It's really not that complicated to wire in. There is really no splicing into the factory stuff like FlatBlack said, it's just one wire in the key switch.

[evil_datto]

Yeah, especially in the carb car, there won't be anything if at all you have to splice into.

In my case, I think I'll be using the single existing fuel relay (one wire grounded from MS) and for the injectors and whatevever else needs a relay, I'm simply buying single relays & relay holders and mounting them inside near the unit somewhere.

 

I vote go for it

[Tony D]

This is a big project so I made an informed summary (since I've done 2 before). You do give up reliability when going MS/EDIS and that's also an important item when one is relying on a car as a daily driver. Good reliable information is not a downer in my book.

 

Neither is overblowing difficulties. If you will note, I simply stated that EDIS was probably way overkill, and that MS-n-Se is all he really needs, and with that he can choose between fuel only, or fuel and spark at a later date.

 

MS1 platform is pretty well debugged, there are not a lot of surprises. The EDIS and all this MS2 stuff is like a DOHC head for a Z: kids getting infatuated with technology because it's AVAILABLE. Because it's AVAILABLE doesn't immdeiately make it APPLICABLE.

 

The 280ZXT worked FINE with a SINGLE coil, and conventional spark distribution.

 

There are MS's out there now which have been daily driven without issue for YEARS. Some have gone through SEVERAL CA Smog Cycles as well without being detected, and compared to the OEM systems they REPLACED they are LESS TROBULESOME.

 

Straight information is one thing, couching it in a negative manner is another.

 

He doesn't NEED EDIS, he WANTS it. It's probably more constructive to educate him why it's not applicable (especially in his circumstance) than it is to make a mountian out of a molehill once he has the original unit's learning curve under his belt.

 

MS was a SIMPLE SYSTEM, and it has strayed. Because they could. It doesn't change the original philosophy: Simple Straightforward Cheap.

 

An MS1 with 8X8 tables runs the car in daily driver mode JUST FINE, you don't NEED anything more! It will outperform the stock box that is in there now.

 

Add complexity, add problems. Keep it simple, and your troubles are FAR less.

 

I'll add that in some cases you can actually have the entire system installed in the car and 'burning in' taking datalogs for quite some time before doing the conversion swapover (yes, with CARBS TOO! Patton Machine Adapters go in quite quickly...)

[josh817]

Yes Tony, valid point, however I'm getting very tired with swapping things around. If I do this it will be done how I want it the first time. I've gone through way too many things and then swapped them out for something else. 2 headers, 2 exhaust pipes, 2 ignition setups, soon to be another head, etc. Unless the other stuff resells then it gets expensive. Even when I do resell stuff, obviously I don't get all of it back, thus is the price for screwing around. I don't want to put in MS1 just to learn it and then switch over to something else.

 

As for flat black, this Megajold install I'm having to find 12v for the coil, module, ECU, etc. The TPS unit and the VR sensor are the only things that go back directly to either the module or the ECU without having to splice into a voltage source or something else. You mentioned the 12v power source to MS, well what about all the sensors and stuff? Stock wires you're using or something? 240, remember, I have water temperature, oil pressure, and 12v to the coil. 3 wires, I love it! Eh, now Megajolt but thats ok. The reason why I feel so comfortable with Megajolt is yes, I learned the stuff, but the learning experience was EASY. They literally have their website setup like Wikipedia so I knew how to navigate and everything. Pictures of the board with a step by step "D3 will go on spot labeled D3 with the stripe facing this way, here is a picture". I printed off every page, laminated it, and added it to my big Datsun Bible. It was very coil and very fun to make because of that.

[Guest Rolling Parts]

It IS a big project converting to EFI from carbs. Not only in the cost and quantity of parts but also a real problem for time involved (when you need the car for driving).

 

Since the price differential for the MS kits is a pittance and MSII is not anymore complex, might as well go MSII for the long run and load/learn the software once.