Any residential electricians in the house?

[ktm]

My wife and I purchased a new to us house that was built in 1967. We are assisting with the remodel and I was replacing all of the ancient switches and outlets with new equipment. All was fine until I hit what may be a switched outlet in the master bedroom.

 

This house has the older wiring with only black and white wires. The outlet has two sets of black and white wires, one set coming into the box and another set leaving it. Right now the white wire from on of the sets is crimped to the black wire of the other set, leaving the respective partners connected to the outlet. I am assuming this is a switched connection. We are installing a ceiling fan with a light on it and no longer need a switched outlet. I am assuming that I can remove the crimp and connected both pairs of wires to the new outlet.

 

Any ideas what I am looking at?

 

Thanks

[Chemicalblue]

My wife and I purchased a new to us house that was built in 1967. We are assisting with the remodel and I was replacing all of the ancient switches and outlets with new equipment. All was fine until I hit what may be a switched outlet in the master bedroom.

 

This house has the older wiring with only black and white wires. The outlet has two sets of black and white wires, one set coming into the box and another set leaving it. Right now the white wire from on of the sets is crimped to the black wire of the other set, leaving the respective partners connected to the outlet. I am assuming this is a switched connection. We are installing a ceiling fan with a light on it and no longer need a switched outlet. I am assuming that I can remove the crimp and connected both pairs of wires to the new outlet.

 

Any ideas what I am looking at?

 

Thanks

 

If there are only two wires on the switch attaching them together will complete the circuit. I do remodeling for a living and I would never want a fan or light with out a switch. Reason being it easier to walk into a room and flip a switch , instead of looking for the fan pull switch in the dark. Always test voltage in any wiring situation to make sure you are fully aware of whats going on , Ive seen people especially in older homes that just use any color wire to run lights and outlets so you cant go by color alone. Typically whites are neutrals and blacks are hot.

[Tony D]

+1 on that!

 

I haven't seen anything residential that wasn't black and white on the 110 lines. Any other colors are usually low voltage or other control/telecom wiring.

 

Check your wires to make sure you have copper, and not clad aluminum. That house would be in 'the folly years' and if aluminum take precations to make good connections and etc. Aluminum wire in the walls is a BBQ waiting to happen, IMO...

[Oddjob]

+1 on that!

 

I haven't seen anything residential that wasn't black and white on the 110 lines. Any other colors are usually low voltage or other control/telecom wiring.

 

 

You see mostly black and white because everything tends to be 2 conductor w/ ground Romex these days. However, per the National Electrical Code (NEC) hot legs can be any color except green or white (and some striped variations). By convention, the first hot leg is black, the second is red and the third is blue. Colors such as yellow and orange tend to be reserved for things like switched legs. Control and telecom wiring must be separated from high voltage (which is anything over 70V), so you are not likely to find them in the same box as 110V. A very common residential wire you may find is 3 conductor w/ ground (Romex), which is found in places like switched receptacles. This will have a bare ground, white neutral and a black and red hot.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Oddjob

[ktm]

Thanks all. You seem to misunderstand. The ceiling fan will be switched as will an ceiling light. It is an outlet that is currently setup to be switched......I think. I am trying to determine why the white wire on one pair was connected to the black wire of the other pair (as described in my original post).

 

Tony, the wires solid copper wires around 14 ga.

 

Thanks for the safety warning as well and I am always testing the voltage.

[Oddjob]

Thanks all. You seem to misunderstand. The ceiling fan will be switched as will an ceiling light. It is an outlet that is currently setup to be switched......I think. I am trying to determine why the white wire on one pair was connected to the black wire of the other pair (as described in my original post).

 

 

In truth, I don't think we can answer your question.

 

If an electrician did the installation, and he wanted to use a white wire (which is reserved for neutral only) as a hot conductor, he is required to change its color at both ends (usually done with tape).

 

A switched receptacle needs only four conductors: a ground, a white neutral, and two colored hots, one constant, and the other switched. The interconnection tab on the brass side of the receptacle is broken off, and gets the two hot conductors. If your receptacle is an old, non-grounded type, then you only need three conductors. The fourth should be unused.

 

If this receptacle was wired by the previous homeowner, there's no telling what he may have done. The best I can say is that there is no "standard practice" reason those two conductors should be connected.

 

As far as accomplishing what you are trying to do, you need only replace the receptacle or jumper the hot side together, and use only the "constant" hot for both sides of the receptacle. This will free your wall switch up for your fan.

[Drax240z]

Is it white with a wrap of electrical tape around it?

[Sam280Z]

It sounds like you have power being fed through one set with the hot being broken off to go to the switch (at least I hope its the hot - otherwise the situation is pretty dangerous).

 

You need to remove the crimp and connect only one set of wires to the outlet. DO NOT connect all of the wires. If you connect all of them, the circuit breaker will trip / fuse will blow when you turn the switch on.

 

If I were you, I would find the switch that controls the outlet. Make sure the switch is on. Turn off the power at the breaker/fuse box. Disconnect and separate all wires in the outlet box. Use an Ohm meter between each set of black and white wires to find which go to the switch (There will be 0 Ohms between them because the switch is on). Cap those wires (one white and one black) with wire nuts and push them to the back of the box. Install the outlet with the remaining wires.

 

I would seriously consider installing GFCI outlets or GFCI circuit breakers. In fact, if you are installing 3 hole outlets with only 2 wires, this is required by code. You should put a sticker on each outlet saying that it is protected by GFCI (they come with the GFCI outlet). One GFCI outlet can protect all other outlets downstream from it - often making it the cheapest alternative.

 

If you don't understand what I'm saying here, you need to hire an electrician.

 

Sam

Edited February 28, 2010 by Sam280Z

[Sam280Z]

Oh, and Tony D makes a good point. If the wire is Aluminum, call an electrician. You cannot use Al wire on regular outlets or with regular wirenuts. You need have Copper pigtails installed.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Sam280Z

[woldson]

+1 on that!

 

I haven't seen anything residential that wasn't black and white on the 110 lines. Any other colors are usually low voltage or other control/telecom wiring.

 

Check your wires to make sure you have copper, and not clad aluminum. That house would be in 'the folly years' and if aluminum take precations to make good connections and etc. Aluminum wire in the walls is a BBQ waiting to happen, IMO...

 

 

Although I would never use aluminum, the power companies uses it all the time on there plants. The drop wire to a home is aluminum around here.

 

One of the biggest drawbacks for aluminum, (in a home) is that you need proper receptacles that will keep pressure on the conductor after multiple thermal cycles.

 

Also one other thing about wiring, nice and tighty, (hard coroner), are bad! Act like small resistors causing a potential heat point.

 

To the poster: never go cheap! All receptacles should be of the highest quality, thus reducing the chance of sparking. Also do not use the push in receptacles, the wire has a higher potential for breaking at the point of entry due to thermal movement.

 

And for heavens sake, do not overload you exiting wiring, make sure it is not 16awg. I would venture to say that 80% to 90% of all household wiring failure is due to overloaded wiring. Be it an undersized extension cord, or load higher than rated for the wiring code of it's time.

 

I have found that most wiring codes are a MINIMUM! Yes you can exceed rated performance on a wire without "popping" a breaker.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a electrician so I don't know crap, consider the above useless dribble!

Edited February 28, 2010 by woldson

[ktm]

Thank you everyone. In the end I left that one to the electrician. I replaced all the old sockets in the house with new ones with that one being the only exception. We have GFCI outlets installed by all of the sinks (electrician did that work).

[sweetleaf]

This goes for everybody. NEVER trust the color of any wires. Test meters are cheap and easy to use, so USE them. This applies to homes, cars, boats, spaceships , etc.. If you don't know how to use one or are too cheap to buy one, then DO NOT MESS WITH IT.

[Tony D]

I routinely remove all extraneous wires added by "PO's" to "fix" electrical maladies, and wonder of wonders once I've restored factory wiring....I find no problems.

 

Wonder if the same goes for houses?