p79 going hairless

[PapaSmurf]

I've found a f54 with p79 for sale finally, been looking forever for one of these setups. I was thinking I should shave it. I refuse to install a stock engine in my car. Now then the goal of this is to keep it running premium p79 should help control the detonation. I have a brand new headset from my last motor sitting in the shop but there are a few extra water holes right? It's felpro 1mm I believe so if I punch out those holes with the f54 flat tops, p79, 1mm gasket I'm looking at 8.71:1 to one before the shave. How much should I shave it to keep it on premium without pinging and what will be required of me parts wise? I have some valves from a 78, though one intake and one exhaust valve disintegrated. I've heard that if shaved longer valve stems are necessary to keep valve train geometry intact. I also have some over sized lashpads from the hotter cam I purchased from msa (sadly that cam is no longer with me rip) what about cam tower shims where can I find those? am I missing anything else?

[BluDestiny]

http://www.zhome.com/rnt/L28conversion/head.html

 

http://datsunzgarage.com/p79/

 

I was going to go this route, but I had an extra e88 laying around and just threw that on a flat-top. I'm getting about 10:1 according to that z engine calculator, and I've had no issues running 91 octane. I have retarded the timing a bit though. With the high quench chambers on the P79 I would think it would hold back the detonation even more than the open e88 chambers.

 

Cam tower shims can be bought at MSA I think

 

edit: found em

 

http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/PEM02/10-1151

[Derek]

Not sure if your going the .080" shave or not but here's my shameless plug for the shims I sell.

Cam shims

 

Derek

[PapaSmurf]

http://www.zhome.com/rnt/L28conversion/head.html

 

http://datsunzgarage.com/p79/

 

I was going to go this route, but I had an extra e88 laying around and just threw that on a flat-top. I'm getting about 10:1 according to that z engine calculator, and I've had no issues running 91 octane. I have retarded the timing a bit though. With the high quench chambers on the P79 I would think it would hold back the detonation even more than the open e88 chambers.

 

Cam tower shims can be bought at MSA I think

 

edit: found em

 

http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/PEM02/10-1151

 

 

Wow thanks for the link, I bought that f54 block today and ripped off the intake manifold and misc junk I refuse to allow on my motors. Fuel injection is for suckers. I have an e88 here that I could throw on. It would save me some effort because the p79 won't accept my mechanical fuel pump and it won't match up with my exhaust manifold. So I could run 92 octane with slightly retarded timing on that set up. Interesting. I wonder if the power would be about the same with smaller valves on the e88 and the mechanical fuel pump.

 

By the way if anyone needs a fi intake manifold I got one, would trade for electric fuel pump and dampener.

 

thanks for all the help guys, derek if I do end up shaving that p79 I'll let you know about the shims

[ozconnection]

Wow thanks for the link, I bought that f54 block today and ripped off the intake manifold and misc junk I refuse to allow on my motors. Fuel injection is for suckers. I have an e88 here that I could throw on. It would save me some effort because the p79 won't accept my mechanical fuel pump and it won't match up with my exhaust manifold. So I could run 92 octane with slightly retarded timing on that set up. Interesting. I wonder if the power would be about the same with smaller valves on the e88 and the mechanical fuel pump.

 

By the way if anyone needs a fi intake manifold I got one, would trade for electric fuel pump and dampener.

 

thanks for all the help guys, derek if I do end up shaving that p79 I'll let you know about the shims

 

There are some 'interesting' comments made right here.

 

What you've said about fuel injection, the mismatch between the head and exhaust manifold and the retarded ignition timing scenario suggest to me that you need to do far more research on these topics to balance your negativity with reality.

 

Nothing wrong with having an opinion mate, we all do, so long as you can support what you've said with solid information, of which there is plenty of at this site.

 

Good luck with your project mate

[blue72]

I have an e88 here that I could throw on. It would save me some effort because the p79 won't accept my mechanical fuel pump

 

Got a drill and some sort of rotary tool? That's how I'm running a mechanical fuel pump on my F54 / P79 combo.

[BluDestiny]

Just for clarification, I'm running triple webers, not EFI. Although you can run carbs on a p79/p90 you *might* run into sealing issues with the injector notches. most likely not though since a ton of members here are running SU's on their p-series.

 

As for the mechanical fuel pump I can't help you there, my car came with an electric pump, and I prefer that to my friends mechanical one. Less clutter in the engine bay, and a quieter ride. I would put an electric one on if I were you, but that's just me. If you are on a budget and got the tools though do what blue72 did. My fuel set up cost me like $230. That's the pump, filter and FPR.

 

 

did you buy a long block or did it come with intake/exhaust manifolds on it?

[PapaSmurf]

I just purchased a cheapo 10psi pump, I'll wire it to a switch in my cockpit (one more anti theft provision for the push button ignition) I figured a low flow pump would be easier on the carbs and yeah I thought about drilling out that fuel pump mount but then I decided it would be better to go electric - slightly less work for the engine, less noise, less vibrations. I always wondered about those mechanical fuel pumps, these engines were all carefully balanced and then they threw such a huge wobble into them on purpose??

 

So now I'm going p79 for sure, electric fuel pump, su's, ontop of the f54.

 

ozconnection:

1. I apologize to the FI crowd, I know many of you have found ingenious solutions to make these FI setups cleaner and better but honestly if an intake manifold resembles a borg spaceship I'm just not going to mess with it. SU's flow fine they make enough power for me, I don't need to put 30 hours and hundreds of dollars into FI for a more crowded engine bay and 5-10hp. It's not that I don't respect your guys's work, it's that I myself am lazy.

 

2. My exhaust is set up for a round port exhaust manifold from an n47, it bolted up and worked alright with the n42 head though, it should fit over the oddball 6sided exhaust ports on the p79 too but I'm not sure I'll have to try it. I have the exhaust manifold from the p79 but like I said it's shorter than the n47 manifold and will require some modification to make it match the rest of my exhaust AND it has several sensors and a hose that was connected to the intake manifold that all need to be removed and sealed. I'm going to try the n47 manifold. It would make life easier.

 

 

Now if I can get a hold of the ONLY machinist in town, and convince them that my cylinder head is more important than their current government contract I'll be able to get this thing shaved. In the mean time I think I'll start refreshing the head, and paint the block. Gotta find a close match to datsun blue.

Edited April 26, 2010 by PapaSmurf

[PapaSmurf]

Just for clarification, I'm running triple webers, not EFI. Although you can run carbs on a p79/p90 you *might* run into sealing issues with the injector notches. most likely not though since a ton of members here are running SU's on their p-series.

 

As for the mechanical fuel pump I can't help you there, my car came with an electric pump, and I prefer that to my friends mechanical one. Less clutter in the engine bay, and a quieter ride. I would put an electric one on if I were you, but that's just me. If you are on a budget and got the tools though do what blue72 did. My fuel set up cost me like $230. That's the pump, filter and FPR.

 

 

did you buy a long block or did it come with intake/exhaust manifolds on it?

 

 

1. Those injector notches never caused a problem with my old n47 head and carbs, hell it might flow better, the mismatch between gasket and injector hole should hopefully just create a bit more turbulence keeping the fuel in suspension for a cleaner burn. That's just my wild optimism though it probably will make no real world difference at all.

 

 

2. I bought a complete engine with intake/exhaust manifolds, alternator, ac pump, even came with the hairdryer but the bastards dropped the motor while loading it into the truck and broke the hairdryer. I've never seen such wreck less disregard, I'm still angry about it

[PapaSmurf]

Update: I just found a stash of plastikote #208 pontiac blue at an obscure auto parts store sitting on a dusty shelf. I bought it all. It's not an exact match to datsun blue but it's pretty darn close for 3 bucks a can. I'm tired of having ugly engine bays, I'm gonna do everything right this time.

 

F54 after removal of most of the accessories and manifolds

 

 

paint test, looks good enough to me. The camera throws the color off a bit so the picture isn't quite the right color.

Edited April 26, 2010 by PapaSmurf

[PapaSmurf]

some paint on the block - I'm going to be replacing the front cover and the clutch, pressure plate, back plate etc. So I left them on. The head needs to be blasted too. I'm also going to be using my non-ac crank pulley so I wont paint this one.

 

 

 

 

 

It's slightly lighter than I wanted it but it looks significantly better than it did

Edited April 27, 2010 by PapaSmurf

[sticky280zx]

 

ozconnection:

1. I apologize to the FI crowd, I know many of you have found ingenious solutions to make these FI setups cleaner and better but honestly if an intake manifold resembles a borg spaceship I'm just not going to mess with it. SU's flow fine they make enough power for me, I don't need to put 30 hours and hundreds of dollars into FI for a more crowded engine bay and 5-10hp. It's not that I don't respect your guys's work, it's that I myself am lazy.

 

 

That is exactly what i have a problem with, First off if you know what you are doing it doesnt take forever and i can promise you with my efi motor and some very cheap upgrades (that get rid of the JUNK in the engine bay) it will make plenty more than 5-10 hp, also i dont know if you've heard of him but BRAAPPP and other great old minds on this site have showed/proven that there are 8-3-1 stock block cars that with boltons will make more hp than a 10-1 modified swap/setup because of the compression not being able to take timing (which is shown multiple times in this thread) which costs you more HP than the few little bumps of comp ratio.

 

Hope you do more research on this site instead of "being too lazy."

[PapaSmurf]

That is exactly what i have a problem with, First off if you know what you are doing it doesnt take forever and i can promise you with my efi motor and some very cheap upgrades (that get rid of the JUNK in the engine bay) it will make plenty more than 5-10 hp, also i dont know if you've heard of him but BRAAPPP and other great old minds on this site have showed/proven that there are 8-3-1 stock block cars that with boltons will make more hp than a 10-1 modified swap/setup because of the compression not being able to take timing (which is shown multiple times in this thread) which costs you more HP than the few little bumps of comp ratio.

 

Hope you do more research on this site instead of "being too lazy."

 

 

First of all, FI is for some people not for me get over it, I don't care.

Secondly BlueDestiny was the one who reported he was using the e88 on the f54 with retarded timing. I am not going that route.

Thirdly I will be as lazy as I want this is MY build

[woldson]

First of all, FI is for some people not for me get over it, I don't care.

 

This site is about going forward.

 

You held back abit witch was notable, now you just tossed up cookies.

 

sticky has done some consideration on your words dealing with your subject matter.

 

I don't think that you may have considered as much on the subject.

 

Just my 2ct

[PapaSmurf]

First of all, FI is for some people not for me get over it, I don't care.

 

This site is about going forward.

 

You held back abit witch was notable, now you just tossed up cookies.

 

sticky has done some consideration on your words dealing with your subject matter.

 

I don't think that you may have considered as much on the subject.

 

Just my 2ct

 

 

I appreciate his opinion and his point of view. Just not the way it was presented. I should have been more clear when I started this post my goals for this project are not to produce as much power as possible. They are to produce more power in an economical manner while keeping the system clean and simple. I have a perfect set of carbs that I have learned to love. I like the way they look on my engine, I like the way they work. I like that they require little maintenance and are easy to adjust. Perhaps on my next build I will go with fuel injection, when I have the money and time to do it properly. For now it would cost several hundred dollars and way more time than I'm willing to invest. I have a 9 month old son and I work full time. Which leaves me with only a few hours a week for the Z. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but you guys have to realize that every once in a while other people have their own opinions and their own ideas of what they want. I appreciate the feedback though thanks

[woldson]

realize that every once in a while other people have their own opinions and their own ideas of what they want.

 

 

True we all have opinions and try hard to respect all, his, yours, mine.

 

Your last statement was in much better standing to the rules and decorm of this site, thanks.

[PapaSmurf]

Apparently the only machinist in the area wants to charge $500 just to shave the head. I'm thinking my money is best spent in other places. I can get a lot more power using that money elsewhere in the car. The suspension is already done, the brakes are pretty good with the 4 piston calipers and slotted rotors on front, still need the rear disk conversion which I could get, or I could upgrade the ignition system to something more modern from a zx, blah there are a lot of things I could do to this car for that much money that I would rather do. In fact $500 is a lot of gas money. I'm going to prep my e88 for installation. I will see how good I can get the timing on premium - mark a notch on the plate, Then I'll fill it up with something a little more expensive and time it, mark another notch. This way I'll be able to run premium when I want, and super duper when I want the power. I'm thinking it will be the best of both worlds. Maybe I'll put some of that 500 into a longer duration cam, I'm gonna need it with this compression.

 

I could always use a standard head gasket rather than the felpro or even a 2mm gasket later down the road if I find I don't like this setup. That will get me higher than stock compression and allow the use of lower octane fuel.

 

oh yeah my f54 came with an e12-80 dizzy too so that will be plugged in. Goodbye points, you've been a pain in the ass for far too long. I'm not sure if I can get this "new" dizzy clean enough for install though it is quite tarnished. It will make my shiny painted block quite ugly... I may have to paint it.

Edited May 1, 2010 by PapaSmurf

[Guest Flauski]

Apparently the only machinist in the area wants to charge $500 just to shave the head.

 

That seems pretty high, anywhere else you could try?

[PapaSmurf]

That seems pretty high, anywhere else you could try?

 

 

I'm not sure, I'm going to get the e88 built up, and bolted down. I found a nice soft brass wire bit for cleaning off these valves. It's working great. I've got the stem seals replaced etc.

 

Once the e88 is done and the f54 is in I'll start rebuilding the p79 and look around for a good shop. I may have to mail it out to someone. The idea is this way I'll have a running Z, I'll get to experiment with high compression and see if I can tune it in well, and I'll be building the p79 up for slightly lower compression and the quenched chambers and slightly lower compression should make it a very nice head for street use once it's done. I'm going to get back to cleaning these valves - I let them soak in a pan full of carb cleaner for a few days and they look like charcoal now that they've dried out. But this wire bit is working wonders, the ones I've done so far look brand spanking new.

 

I also compared the valve sizes between my e88 and destroyed n42, the n42's intake valves are only ever so slightly larger. I don't know if it's really going to make a significant difference. After I'm done cleaning these valves and ports up I think this e88 will flow very well indeed.

 

pics:

Flat tops come up just over the top of the cylinder walls is this normal

 

Valves before and after:

 

 

I'm having trouble identifying the version of this particular e88, I know there are several versions. This came from an l26 several years ago. It has the large E in e88 not the skinny one, but it also has the notches near spark plug hole in the combustion chamber. So I thought I would document it for you guys:

 

 

 

I thought the 260z version of the e88 was the emissions version without the notch, and I also thought that the versions with the notches had the skinny E in the casting. Is this one of the mystical in between e88 versions?

Edited May 2, 2010 by PapaSmurf

[blue72]

It's true that there were four versions of the E88 head available in the states. Yours is the 47.8cc large / emissions style head. This particular head's part number begins with P50, so you'll sometimes see it referred to by that moniker. It's correct for an L26 engine.

 

Here's an E88 w/ bump. It came from my '72 Z.

 

The intake valves should be 42mm on the E88 and 44mm on the N42. The exhaust valves on your E88 should be 35mm diameter, which is a bit larger than the earlier E88 heads which had 33mm diameter exhaust valves.

 

It is also normal for the L28 pistons to stick up above the block about .020 - .025" (this measurement courtesy of BRAAP)

 

I calculate your compression ratio at 9.9 if you're using the F54 bottom end, a Fel-Pro head gasket and an unmolested late E88. Using a stock Nissan gasket would lower it a smidge more.

Edited May 2, 2010 by blue72