Unbearable ride quality

[Meph]

Hey guys

 

I've been neglectign to drive my datsun a lot because the drive quality is so terrible. When Im driving its like a mine field of bumps and pot holes that has be driving all over the roda to avoil small blips in the road. When I do hit something I cant avoild, it feels like im driving over a curb, a jarring jolt that makes me feel like im gonna bend my frame in half one day soon.

 

By setup is tokico 5020 springs (not sure of the drop really), bump steer spacers, tochno toy tension rods. When the car sits the front coils arnt locked but theres not much room between each coil

 

 

and the large suspension technique sway bars (not sur eof the size but they have some gurth)

 

Theres a 1jz in the engine bay, so 100 lbs or so over the l24

 

Am I doomed to have this terrible driving experience? I was hoping some softer springs might help or maybe I need to adjust my tension rods ? I got this setup when i bought the shell, Im not looking to make a track machine, but I want soemthing that more cooperative to drive.

 

any suggestion?

 

Thanks a lot!

Edited August 8, 2010 by Meph

[johnc]

Hey guys

 

I've been neglectign to drive my datsun a lot because the drive quality is so terrible. When Im driving its like a mine field of bumps and pot holes that has be driving all over the roda to avoil small blips in the road. When I do hit something I cant avoild, it feels like im driving over a curb, a jarring jolt that makes me feel like im gonna bend my frame in half one day soon.

 

By setup is tokico 5020 springs (not sure of the drop really), bump steer spacers, tochno toy tension rods. When the car sits the front coils arnt locked but theres not much room between each coil

 

 

 

any suggestion?

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Replace the Tokico 5020 springs with their 280Z 5022 springs or the Eibach Pro Kit springs. Here's a write covering the 5022 spring install: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/88025-installing-tokico-280z-hp-springs-in-a-240z/

 

You will need to be running at least the Tokico HP shocks. Illuminas are better for your application. The Eibach springs will be a little softer then the 5022s while the 5022s will give better handling.

[30 ounce]

That setup has coil bind issues and adding that extra 100 pounds probably made it worse. I have Techno Toys Tuning's front and rear lower control arms and TC rods and the Tokico Illumina setup John was talking about (actually got them from John). With the shocks set to 2 the ride is firm and well controlled. About the same as BMW M3. I've heard the HP shocks are like the Illumina's set to 3 which might be a little stiff for the street. I love the way my z rides and drives now!! John is a great resource for suspension info. Get yours fixed and enjoy!!

[GodZilla]

I'm having similar issues to yours. The shop that did my car didn't do the suspension as it was meant to be. I used the Techno Toy "weld on coilovers". Instead of the shop cutting the perch and welding the sleeves on, they cut the sleeves shorter and put the springs on top of the perch. So I had to order 2" shorter springs which now means I have less travel. I'm using the Koni Special D's coilovers. The ride feels just fine but going over man holes, the struts bottom out really easily. I don't know if increasing the ride height might help.

[JMortensen]

I'm having similar issues to yours. The shop that did my car didn't do the suspension as it was meant to be. I used the Techno Toy "weld on coilovers". Instead of the shop cutting the perch and welding the sleeves on, they cut the sleeves shorter and put the springs on top of the perch. So I had to order 2" shorter springs which now means I have less travel. I'm using the Koni Special D's coilovers. The ride feels just fine but going over man holes, the struts bottom out really easily. I don't know if increasing the ride height might help.

Shorter springs does not equal shorter travel. If you have a 12" long spring and you have the perch set 11" down from the top of the strut tube, you have 1" of travel. The STRUT'S POSITION is what gives you a particular amount of travel. Now what could be an issue is if you have a short spring that is COIL BINDING. If it is hitting the bumpstop before it coil binds, then the spring is not the problem.

[Meph]

im thinking the coil are probably binding at thats whats giving the god awful shock to the chassis. The shocks are tokico as well, likely the most basic because there's no adjustment to them. whats the differience between the 5022 and 5020?

[30 ounce]

im thinking the coil are probably binding at thats whats giving the god awful shock to the chassis. The shocks are tokico as well, likely the most basic because there's no adjustment to them. whats the differience between the 5022 and 5020?

The 5020 for the 240z are progressive rate springs and are suppose to increase spring rate as the spring compresses. Thus the first few coils are coil bound. The 5022 are for the 260-280z and are not progressive rate springs. John has a formula for making these work on the 240z on the suspension page. I would recomend doing this as they are also slightly higher spring rates and would help with the extra 100 pounds in the front of your car.

[Supra510]

Again, sounds like coil bind. To check just look in between your coils and you'll see a faint line where they are touching (if they are touching).

[Meph]

ill snap a photo tomorrow because its really hard to tell without a visual. the coils dont seem progressive to me, they look like a uniform coil but again, ill post pics tomorrow . the ride is so stiff to start with i really wouldnt mind going a little softer coil

[Meph]

I went to check the car today, I think my issue is two part, first being the coil only have roughly 1-2inches of possible travel as they are so closely bound.

 

The second issue I see is the top of the strut housing is very close to the top of the strut, further more, only one the passenger side has bump stop (i think it called a bump stop, it prevents the strut from hitting the perch (i think its called a perch)). When I jump on the door sill I can see the side without a bump stop travel, but the side with will wiggle a bit but dosnt travel like the side without.

 

Logically it would make me think that the main problem is the strut casings are too tall, and secoldly the coils are binidng after an inch or two travel.

 

Is there any free play in the strut that would allow me to cut/weld the top down lower to give more travel? I've seen mr2 struts talked about, would I need to replace the cartridge to lower the strut tube length?

 

would removing the other bump stop be a fair idea to get me some travel on the right strut till I can find a more permanent solution?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Meph

[JMortensen]

Is there any free play in the strut that would allow me to cut/weld the top down lower to give more travel? I've seen mr2 struts talked about, would I need to replace the cartridge to lower the strut tube length?

 

would removing the other bump stop be a fair idea to get me some travel on the right strut till I can find a more permanent solution?

Search "sectioning struts" as that will tell you what you need to know. Yes, you need shorter struts to do it. If you got the same struts you could take your fronts and use them in the rear as the rear struts need to be longer, and then section the fronts to use MR2 rear inserts.

 

Removing the bumpstop will either allow the strut to hit the hat on top or allow the coils to bind. Hitting the rubber bumpstop should be more comfortable than either of those solutions, so I'd actually put a bumpstop in on the side that doesn't have one if you were just going to mess with bumpstops.

 

I'd suggest a different strut too. I'm not much for the way the Tokicos are valved. Too much compression, not enough rebound. If you're going to section anyway I'd go with the Bilstein struts talked about in the big strut thread and just use the stock valving they come with. They're a bit shorter than the MR2 struts and IME Bilstein has a much better handle on ride comfort (and handling for that matter) than Tokico. But that's just one opinion and to be fair I haven't actually tried their struts with stock valving on a Z, but I've had them in various other vehicles.

[Meph]

i pulled the bump stop on the one strut, it was getting shredded by the strut. the pack of bump stop allows for about 1.5" more travel so maybe ill get lucky and the coils will bind before any physical contact. Test drive tomorrow then I start the hunt for new struts.

[Kris.Is.Awesome]

In for coil bind posts!

 

[Konish]

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/87061-suspension-guys-please-help-the-ignorant/page__p__825786__fromsearch__1#entry825786

 

Please look at this...I had the same spring set-up and had the same bad bottoming problem that manifested itself exactly as you describe.

 

Replaced with the 280z springs (had to be cut on each of the corners) and 5-way Tokico Illuminas...problem solved for around $800ish and the ride is awesome

[Meph]

The ride has improved 10 fold after removing the bumpstops in the front, I only bottomed out slighly once on a large sink hole in the road but even that was a lot less severe than even small bumps were before. I think I'll modify the rear stops buy cutting it in half to allow another 3/4 inch of travel till I find a more permanent solution.

 

I think my current plan is to section the rear struts with the current front struts installed in them, and continue to use the current spring.

 

in the front use MR2 struts up front, and find a sutable spring to run.

 

Is the diameter of the tekico spring the same front and rear? Are rear springs taller than the front? What about finding a set of rear springs, they are non progressive and have a little higher spring rate, that would help with the extra weight of the 1z setup and allow me to trim the coils will I get the appropriate ride hight.

[johnc]

The ride has improved 10 fold after removing the bumpstops in the front, I only bottomed out slighly once on a large sink hole in the road but even that was a lot less severe than even small bumps were before. I think I'll modify the rear stops buy cutting it in half to allow another 3/4 inch of travel till I find a more permanent solution.

 

I think my current plan is to section the rear struts with the current front struts installed in them, and continue to use the current spring.

 

in the front use MR2 struts up front, and find a sutable spring to run.

 

Is the diameter of the tekico spring the same front and rear? Are rear springs taller than the front? What about finding a set of rear springs, they are non progressive and have a little higher spring rate, that would help with the extra weight of the 1z setup and allow me to trim the coils will I get the appropriate ride hight.

 

Why don't you listen to what people are posting here as advice instead of developing your own hillbilly solution?

[Meph]

No offence John but no one here has examined my car first hand, if I had followed everyone suggestions without my own input and interpretation I would have substantially decreased my suspension performance past the point it was already at. By listening to everyones input, even though i have not followed them necessarily, has allowed me to fully understand the issue and develop a solution that for now, has worked very successfully.

 

I think the idea of buying springs for another model of car and chopping each one of them would be considered pretty hillbilly at first (280z springs), but someone did it and now its accepted as the norm. I don't think using rear 240z tokico springs (higher spring rate and non progressive, same properties as the 5022's) in the front is any more hillbilly than buying 280z springs and chopping them, the fact that ive added 1-200 lbs over the front wheels would call for a stiffer string vs. standard setups, using rear springs in the front would increase the rate about 12% over whats in there now. This is before the sujbect of availability of parts in my location and costs come into the picture. Hopefully someone can comment on the spring diameter and maybe someone has a pair of rear springs left over from when the upgraded (should be a lot unused springs out there)

 

Im planning to section the struts, install the front socks in the rear and use mr2 socks in the front. I have listened to the input of others and its been very helpful, so thanks everyone. Hopefully this clears up my hillbilly ambitions.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Meph

[johnc]

I don't think using rear 240z tokico springs (higher spring rate and non progressive, same properties as the 5022's) in the front is any more hillbilly than buying 280z springs and chopping them, the fact that ive added 1-200 lbs over the front wheels would call for a stiffer string vs. standard setups, using rear springs in the front would increase the rate about 12% over whats in there now. This is before the sujbect of availability of parts in my location and costs come into the picture. Hopefully someone can comment on the spring diameter and maybe someone has a pair of rear springs left over from when the upgraded (should be a lot unused springs out there)

 

Im planning to section the struts, install the front socks in the rear and use mr2 socks in the front. I have listened to the input of others and its been very helpful, so thanks everyone. Hopefully this clears up my hillbilly ambitions.

 

The 5020 rear spring is 165 lb. in.

The 5022 front spring is 185 lb. in.

The 5022 rear spring is 200 lb. in.

 

Front and rear spring diameters are different in the S30. The difference is small enough that it should not be an issue in your application. Without adjustable lower spring perches sectioning the struts won't help your bump travel issue unless you section them above the stock spring perch.

 

Running without bump stops will quickly destroy your shocks even with spring coil bind. The foot valve gets hammered.

 

I fixed this problem on probably half-a-dozen 240Zs in my shop. Your final solution might work out but we won't know until you pick your rear springs. If you're going with an all Tokico solution the 165 lb. in front springs and 200 lb rear springs give a 21% difference in rate front to rear which is outside the nromal range for performace or for what Nissan originally designed. Also, your interim plans will most likely cause more harm. And parts for your car are a phone call and some shipping fees away.

 

As always, its your car and you can do with it as you please. Here on HybridZ you'll get lots of opinions with the general focus on increasing the performance of these cars.

[Meph]

I know the idea isnt guaranteed to work, but Im trying to find a solution that I can afford to do with the money availible. If I can pick up a new pair of springs for 40 bucks vs a new set of coils for ~500, bring unemployed right now spending 500-1000 on a set setup isnt possible if I want to eat still.

 

I think what I need to look into is the spring rates of the front vs rear and the length of the coils. I really have next to no experience with suspension tuning so im wrapping my head around it the best I can, I know the theory isnt bullet proof but Im not a real fan of getting called hillbilly for trying to think outside the box.

 

What is the spring rate of the front 5020 springs? 140 lb-in is sticking out in my mined. What i was leaving out of my thought was that spring rate will change if I cut the coil (right?) so if I ran a 165 in the front and cut the coils it would raise the rate further. With a 140 in the rear i would probably though the balance off too much, even with the extra weight. So relocating the perch, finding another suitable spring or installing a coil over setup.

 

I do appreciate the input from everyone, even constructive criticism thanks a lot !