water meth injection mostly stock s130 turbo

[calvin280zxt]

I have an 82 280zx turbo, mostly stock other than boost egt afr gauges and a homemade boost controller, i am currently looking at the snow performance water meth system, planning to inject pre turbo, no intercooler, just wondering what other mods i will need and the amount of boost i will be able to run ballpark.i have been running 11psi bone stock on 90 octane with no issues so far

[Ernest Harmon]

By the statement pre-turbo I am assuming you want the mist going through the turbo?This is not how to install a water/meth injection system.It goes in the intake air charge stream in order to cool the charge after compression takes place by the turbo this is done just before or just after the throttle body,making the install post turbo.You should read the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.If you are planning for the water mist to go through the turbo it will cause corrosion and fan blade erosion causing boost loss over time.

[calvin280zxt]

By the statement pre-turbo I am assuming you want the mist going through the turbo?This is not how to install a water/meth injection system.It goes in the intake air charge stream in order to cool the charge after compression takes place by the turbo this is done just before or just after the throttle body,making the install post turbo.You should read the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.If you are planning for the water mist to go through the turbo it will cause corrosion and fan blade erosion causing boost loss over time.

 

iv heard that aswell but iv also heard many people say the opposite, that if the mist is fine enough it has no affect on the turbo other than greater efficiency as the turbo is pushing out cool air and doesnt have to work against itself, im still researching the idea but considering im pushing the stock turbo to its limits, if i can do it pre turbo without wrecking anything it seems like a promissing idea. i may just do it after the throttle body but im toying with the idea anyway

[Ernest Harmon]

Why not just make sure your air fuel ratios/tune is right and consider intercooling. This will resolve a potential problem instead of band-aiding it?

[calvin280zxt]

Why not just make sure your air fuel ratios/tune is right and consider intercooling. This will resolve a potential problem instead of band-aiding it?

 

well im working on my a/f ratios but im looking for a more cost effectice solution, anyone can throw money at theproblem

[sticky280zx]

an intercooler is needed to make any amount of decent power, what cars nowadays come turboed without intercoolers....exactly, not a waste or "throwing" money at it in my opinion, and obviously all the automakers think so as well.

[ktm]

well im working on my a/f ratios but im looking for a more cost effectice solution, anyone can throw money at theproblem

 

An intercooler is more cost efficient than water/meth injection. I am running both. You can buy a universal I/C, piping, clamps, hoses, etc. for under $200 on Ebay. Coolingmist, Snow Performance, Devils Own, Alky Control, FJO Racing and Aquamist are all more expensive (especially the last two).

 

I have a fully progressive system using two 700 cc/min high speed solenoid injectors and a standalone (in addition to my ECU) meth controller that fully maps my injection based on RPM and MAP. My system costs around $550 to $600. Snow Performance's kit is around $300 if I remember correctly.

 

Meth injection should not be used as your primary source of charge cooling on a street driven car unless you have multiple fail safes built into your setup. Clogged injectors, loss of power, running out of meth, loss of meth pressure, etc. when you are boosting can lead to a blown engine unless you have a system that can automatically switch maps or cut boost.

 

Why push the stock turbo to it's limits? It will be well outside of its efficiency range. Size your turbo and your engine setup correctly for your power goals.

[Challenger]

an intercooler is needed to make any amount of decent power, what cars nowadays come turboed without intercoolers....exactly, not a waste or "throwing" money at it in my opinion, and obviously all the automakers think so as well.

 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/94800-psi-verses-timing-advanced/

 

You read this?

[Calgary280ZT]

I agree with Bo.

 

An intercooler is more cost efficient than water/meth injection. I am running both. You can buy a universal I/C, piping, clamps, hoses, etc. for under $200 on Ebay. Coolingmist, Snow Performance, Devils Own, Alky Control, FJO Racing and Aquamist are all more expensive (especially the last two).

 

I have a fully progressive system using two 700 cc/min high speed solenoid injectors and a standalone (in addition to my ECU) meth controller that fully maps my injection based on RPM and MAP. My system costs around $550 to $600. Snow Performance's kit is around $300 if I remember correctly.

 

Meth injection should not be used as your primary source of charge cooling on a street driven car unless you have multiple fail safes built into your setup. Clogged injectors, loss of power, running out of meth, loss of meth pressure, etc. when you are boosting can lead to a blown engine unless you have a system that can automatically switch maps or cut boost.

 

Why push the stock turbo to it's limits? It will be well outside of its efficiency range. Size your turbo and your engine setup correctly for your power goals.

[Ernest Harmon]

While this is somewhat off topic here but is in line with the above link.There is no since in cramming it in if you can't get it out.I have not started on my car as of yet other than collecting some parts and working on my blueprint as to what I want.The one thing that I do know is I will start the mods at the rear of the car and work forward to the engine.So exhaust will be first.2.5 or 3.0 downpipe to 3 inch pipe.No converter, muffler if noise level requires, if not straight out the back.Including a good general gasket match porting and polishing of the exhaust manifold.these are relatively cheap DIY projects.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Ernest Harmon

[Challenger]

If it fits with the above link, why not put it in the above link?

[sticky280zx]

What was the point of posting that link, in reference to my post....i know what makes power, this guy wants more boost, never said squat about timing. I know the gains of timing but i also know that on these cars (and most any other) you have to run an intercooler, which was my point by saying that an intercooler is FACTORY on almost every turbo car nowadays.

 

What was the point of asking me if i read that link....maybe you should be addressing the OP and not me, i didnt have any questions, thanks though.

[hoov100]

What was the point of posting that link, in reference to my post....i know what makes power, this guy wants more boost, never said squat about timing. I know the gains of timing but i also know that on these cars (and most any other) you have to run an intercooler, which was my point by saying that an intercooler is FACTORY on almost every turbo car nowadays.

 

What was the point of asking me if i read that link....maybe you should be addressing the OP and not me, i didnt have any questions, thanks though.

 

Go read every one of Tony's posts in that thread and you will understand why an intercooler is not necessary.

[jc052685]

Go read every one of Tony's posts in that thread and you will understand why an intercooler is not necessary.

 

 

This

[Tony D]

Argh, this place is ZCar.Comming more and more every day... No disrespect Ernest but dude, but if you haven't started on your car, what are you drawing on to comment other than internet correspondence? I have addressed each of your myths before, I'm not retreading them again.

 

OTHER than to say your statement about preturbo injection 'not being correct' is just plain WRONG. It does not MATTER whether it's pre or post turbo. Injection BEFORE the turbo will give the same state-change as after the turbo, with the advantage of not needing a high pressure pump to inject and atomize it. The turbo blades make a nice homogenizer in that respect.

 

If you don't understand the physical forces acting on a given modification, please take the time to reserve comment until you do understand them.

[calvin280zxt]

stock cars have intercoolers not water meth injection (for the most part) because people these days dont even look under the hood once a year, if you have a head on your shoulders its not a problen, i do have exaust, kinda, glass pack and gutted cat, im not building a race car, i dont need a bigger turbo for what im doing unlessi win the lottery or something

[Challenger]

What was the point of posting that link, in reference to my post....i know what makes power, this guy wants more boost, never said squat about timing. I know the gains of timing but i also know that on these cars (and most any other) you have to run an intercooler, which was my point by saying that an intercooler is FACTORY on almost every turbo car nowadays.

 

What was the point of asking me if i read that link....maybe you should be addressing the OP and not me, i didnt have any questions, thanks though.

 

Dont need to ask a question to get an answer... Did you read the entire thread or only the title?

[sticky280zx]

oh no i read the thread, and also know what "these" people spend on their cars, and by how he's talking that i would be wasting my breathe telling him to just spend 2k on portwork.

 

Any decent builder knows how things work, which is why i just shake my head everytime people think that turbo's are the best thing in the world and theyre going to turbo their z or zx. I have been around the block even at young age to know the workings of everything and that if you can add air and fuel to a motor you will make power...thats the simple 2nd grade version. It gets more complicated when you do the same thing, with less junk added on, and spend your money doing the right mods which people always say....BUT i can make more power with a bigger turbo. I just tell them whip out a straw any straw...now blow, mk now blow harder, harder, keep going, blow, come on dont pass out just blow harder. THATS what your turbo is doing, and just like you its going to get tired and "pass out" eventually because youre still blowing through the same damn straw nomatter how hard you blow and its not moving the air any more efficiently.

 

Thats the whole point of any motor is to move air and burn fuel. If you clear out a smoother, bigger, more useable path for the air, it will make more power, do it faster, and not "burn" itself out as fast...aka lasting longer.

 

 

But as ive said a million times, people want to make 350-400hp on these cars there are many ways of doing it but most will only take the one route because for some reason to spend 1k or more on a big turbo, another 500-1k for a quality intercooler setup and other misc (name brand) turbo parts like BOV's and WG's, but spending 2k on a "single piece" (even though the head is more the "heart" of the build vs the turbo and its "helpers").

 

Like ive always said, i like N/A power, if i can have 300hp out of an easily stroked, ported to **** head, with a couple carbs....why screw with a turbo, all the extra components (like the wiring/standalone/tuning/etc) just to get the same amount of power. I also dont have to raise and drop boost, worry about cops looking at me cause my BOV is loud, etc. I can just put around in my stroker but when i want to goooo, i just rev the piss out of it, Plus ill take the sounds of a mean stroked l6 vs a turbo l6 anyday. Plus people just think it "has a cam" but nothing major untill i wrap it out, stealthier to me.

 

Then again i also loved my l28 that was .40 over, nicely (read big) ported head, Lumpy cam, Header, 280zx dist, running a 650 holley 4brl (which had been rejetted-jetted down), etc etc with a TON of timing (thanks to reading my ass off on BRAAP and others great posts. Plus since i had the 4brl i could just swap jets/needles out, pull timing, change plugs, and run a nifty 125 shot via wet plate....was fun as hell but again just sounded lumpy and everyonce in a while after hitting the button i was asked if it was a v8...But id rather build my cars once, the right way, and if i can get around certain parts (like turbos) i will continue to. I can list reasons why i just dont like turbo cars and dont feel like rewiring my car and the other associated stuff when i could just build a nice N/A motor and enjoy it even more.

 

 

Didnt want to double post, but like he just said "i dont need a bigger turbo unless i win the lottery or something" Im pretty sure telling him, the secret is portwork, send your head to BRAAP, Robello, Sunbelt....and tell them the numbers you want and that youre ok with spending the 2-3k in headwork to do just that.

Edited September 16, 2010 by sticky280zx

[hoov100]

oh no i read the thread, and also know what "these" people spend on their cars, and by how he's talking that i would be wasting my breathe telling him to just spend 2k on portwork.

 

Any decent builder knows how things work, which is why i just shake my head everytime people think that turbo's are the best thing in the world and theyre going to turbo their z or zx. I have been around the block even at young age to know the workings of everything and that if you can add air and fuel to a motor you will make power...thats the simple 2nd grade version. It gets more complicated when you do the same thing, with less junk added on, and spend your money doing the right mods which people always say....BUT i can make more power with a bigger turbo. I just tell them whip out a straw any straw...now blow, mk now blow harder, harder, keep going, blow, come on dont pass out just blow harder. THATS what your turbo is doing, and just like you its going to get tired and "pass out" eventually because youre still blowing through the same damn straw nomatter how hard you blow and its not moving the air any more efficiently.

 

Thats the whole point of any motor is to move air and burn fuel. If you clear out a smoother, bigger, more useable path for the air, it will make more power, do it faster, and not "burn" itself out as fast...aka lasting longer.

 

 

But as ive said a million times, people want to make 350-400hp on these cars there are many ways of doing it but most will only take the one route because for some reason to spend 1k or more on a big turbo, another 500-1k for a quality intercooler setup and other misc (name brand) turbo parts like BOV's and WG's, but spending 2k on a "single piece" (even though the head is more the "heart" of the build vs the turbo and its "helpers").

 

Like ive always said, i like N/A power, if i can have 300hp out of an easily stroked, ported to **** head, with a couple carbs....why screw with a turbo, all the extra components (like the wiring/standalone/tuning/etc) just to get the same amount of power. I also dont have to raise and drop boost, worry about cops looking at me cause my BOV is loud, etc. I can just put around in my stroker but when i want to goooo, i just rev the piss out of it, Plus ill take the sounds of a mean stroked l6 vs a turbo l6 anyday. Plus people just think it "has a cam" but nothing major untill i wrap it out, stealthier to me.

 

Then again i also loved my l28 that was .40 over, nicely (read big) ported head, Lumpy cam, Header, 280zx dist, running a 650 holley 4brl (which had been rejetted-jetted down), etc etc with a TON of timing (thanks to reading my ass off on BRAAP and others great posts. Plus since i had the 4brl i could just swap jets/needles out, pull timing, change plugs, and run a nifty 125 shot via wet plate....was fun as hell but again just sounded lumpy and everyonce in a while after hitting the button i was asked if it was a v8...But id rather build my cars once, the right way, and if i can get around certain parts (like turbos) i will continue to. I can list reasons why i just dont like turbo cars and dont feel like rewiring my car and the other associated stuff when i could just build a nice N/A motor and enjoy it even more.

 

 

Didnt want to double post, but like he just said "i dont need a bigger turbo unless i win the lottery or something" Im pretty sure telling him, the secret is portwork, send your head to BRAAP, Robello, Sunbelt....and tell them the numbers you want and that youre ok with spending the 2-3k in headwork to do just that.

 

And what do these statements have to do with the fact that intercoolers aren't needed?

 

 

Yes N/A is easier, but once you get to a certain threshold, you either need more displacement or a higher piston velocity to achieve higher power levels. The nice thing about a turbo, is it's ability to compress air into a cylinder. Now some people are lazy and don't want to build some all out stroker that will only net a measly 300WHP Especially when 3-400WHP can be made for less money with a turbo. hell, an average vg30 is putting out somewhere between 3-800WHP on a stock long block, Where is you're N/A is easier now? You are basing your opinion as fact and trying to push it on people.

[sticky280zx]

Im not pushing anything, im just very happy with the 300hp range, tell me where i said i wanted more? When i do want more i will be going with a turbo motor, kinda funny how ive had done multiple turbo setups for other people and their car, pieced the parts together, and done alot of the "flow" work myself, and come dyno time they have been more than happy and normally their goal is exceeded by 20% or so and normally with smaller components than they had thought in the first place.

 

Also alot of people on this board are alllll about the 300-350 range for their turbo cars with all that added stuff that i just dont want to mess with. Please list for me the Names of people on this site or anyother Z site for that matter that are DRIVING their l28 turbo cars with 500+ hp (i know its not 800 like vg's, but then agian how many of those Z's do you see)?

 

This site has some people who know what they are talking about and always speading the knowledge and those that keep more to themselves and share when needed. I would think that the "sticky" about 300-350whp thread is a bunch of junk and isnt the greatest "outline" for people building a turbo Lseries but hey....its at the top of the page, when good reads/threads FULL of informative and backed up statments, dont get that red star and the spotlight they deserve instead you get to "search" to find them.

 

I dont really care if my car makes more than 300hp so i dont care to deal with the turbo stuff when its been proven 300+ is doable even with small boost levels (and NOT using a 35R or bigger turbo). But hey what do i know, im aparently just some pushy N/A guy who doesnt know what he's talking about and doesnt have respect for teh awesomeness of teh turbo carzz ...and im still trying to figure out how n/a is easier?

 

I dont want to pick a fight or try and tear your single post to shreds but how many 300hp n/a or stroker builds are running around and what was the avg cost of them (done right, that aer lasting) vs the 300whp turbo builds (on just this site alone). Obviously it takes alot more knowledge, measuring, mixture of parts, etc to build an L series N/a or stroker to reach 300hp than it does to get a head ported, add bigger injectors, and go well beyond 300 in a turbo build. I have and will always bet/think/know that it is easier to get big numbers from a turbo build, but thats not what im after. I am not a dyno queen or trying to run 9's, so big numbers dont mean jack to me except that there tends to be alot of unusable powerband with those cars.