S30 or E30?

[StrokinIT]

Hey everyone,

I have a 76 280z that I've been working on with my dad since I think 2005. It was supposed to be a relatively short project but here we are almost 6 years later and we haven't put more than 4 miles on the car. I was sort of talked into this idea without any previous knowledge. At the time that we were buying the car we had 2 different cars we were looking at at the time. 1 was on ebay, a silver 73 240 with a 3.2 rebello stroker and ITB's, it ended up selling for $3800 but my dad thought that was too much for a "project car" since he was funding the initial cost (as a high school graduation present) and we would split the rest of the costs. Well we ended up going with the other car we were looking at, a light blue 76 280 that was running but needed "minor" rust repair. So we picked up the 76 project for about $1500 and I personally have sunk almost $8k into it so far, most of which on body work and paint. The only performance parts I've bought were a big brake kit and bigger wheels/tires to fit over the big brakes, and a rebuilt 5 speed to replace the 4 speed. From what I've learned, most projects go in the way of performance first, and then body work/ paint, well my Dad wanted a show car and I wanted a race car, so we ended up with a great looking car but less than stock performance. I think most of you will understand why this is an upsetting project.

 

I'm 8 months away from graduating college with a degree in civil engineering and have a job lined up for me if I choose to go in that direction. To be honest I didn't really want a Datsun when we first started this project, I had never heard of them, I didn't know a damn thing about them, and I've always been a BMW guy because my uncle used to be an amazing BMW club driver. So here I am today, in a love/hate relationship with this gorgeous money pit I call my Datsun, and I'm considering buying an e30 325i and going with a totally different approach. I've put so much money into this Z with literally 0 return on investment, and this project is pretty close to being done, but I have lost almost all the will to continue with this project.

 

The dilemma is that since I've never driven a Z before, nor have I driven an e30 before (I've driven e36s before and liked them, and the e30 is supposed to actually be more fun to drive), I don't know which direction to go right now. On one hand, yes I already have the car and already have work done to it, but for the same amount of money it would cost me to finish this Z, I could actually have an e30 with minor mods and be enjoying it. My question to you folks is, which car would be more fun as a track car? 280z or e30 325i?

 

Thanks,

Josh

[JSM]

This is my opinion. Finish the project with your dad. 20 years from now you will look back with fond memories.

 

Once the project is done, start what you wanted to do by yourself.

[240zBoy]

I get similiar feelings man but I'm still chuggin along.

[h4nsm0l3m4n]

I dont want to seem rude but how much track driving experience do you have? Unless youre a very hardcore and very picky or particular driver I think you can have a lot of fun driving your car on the track regardless of what the car actually is. I've seen all kinds of cars at the race tracks and autocross events from the most boring honda accords to fully prepped race cars and from what I've seen everyone has an awesome time. If youre a beginner (which you may not be, I dont know) I'd hazard to say you want to drive as much of a stock performing car as you can get so you can learn gradually rather than jumping in head first.

 

On another point if youve only really driven your Z car 4 miles in the last 5 years how can you honestly say that youd like a BMW more? My car's been down for only 2 months due to my LS1 swap and I already feel a little detached from it, I cant imagine a few years. I'd recommend keeping the car but dont sink any more money into it. Drive it as it is and have fun with it. Remember, you dont HAVE to constantly be upgrading the car. You can be very fast with just a few key mods and a lot of driving experience and really knowing the limit of whatever car you have. Do some track days and autocross events. If you learn to like it and see its potential invest further, if not sell it and buy what you really want.

 

One last thing (sorry to drag on) I just recently graduated with a mechanical engineering degree myself and if your program is in any way similar to mine the last 2 or 3 semesters are really the most important since it was the time when we did our Senior Engineering Design Project. I think focusing on that and finishing strong should be a priority, since you have the rest of your life to play with cars after you're done

Edited September 27, 2010 by h4nsm0l3m4n

[StrokinIT]

I dont want to seem rude but how much track driving experience do you have? Unless youre a very hardcore and very picky or particular driver I think you can have a lot of fun driving your car on the track regardless of what the car actually is. I've seen all kinds of cars at the race tracks and autocross events from the most boring honda accords to fully prepped race cars and from what I've seen everyone has an awesome time. If youre a beginner (which you may not be, I dont know) I'd hazard to say you want to drive as much of a stock performing car as you can get so you can learn gradually rather than jumping in head first.

 

On another point if youve only really driven your Z car 4 miles in the last 5 years how can you honestly say that youd like a BMW more? My car's been down for only 2 months due to my LS1 swap and I already feel a little detached from it, I cant imagine a few years. I'd recommend keeping the car but dont sink any more money into it. Drive it as it is and have fun with it. Remember, you dont HAVE to constantly be upgrading the car. You can be very fast with just a few key mods and a lot of driving experience and really knowing the limit of whatever car you have. Do some track days and autocross events. If you learn to like it and see its potential invest further, if not sell it and buy what you really want.

 

One last thing (sorry to drag on) I just recently graduated with a mechanical engineering degree myself and if your program is in any way similar to mine the last 2 or 3 semesters are really the most important since it was the time when we did our Senior Engineering Design Project. I think focusing on that and finishing strong should be a priority, since you have the rest of your life to play with cars after you're done

 

 

1. I don't have very much track experience at all, and I also think I would have alot of fun driving my car on the track, if I could actually do that. Point being, since this is a "father-son" project, we are both "equally" invested (we split the cost of body work/paint but he refuses to pitch in for anything that has to do with performance, e.g. suspension parts, transmission or engine work, etc.) and he has stated on multiple occasions that he won't let the car be taken to the track until he is fully paid off on the project. So before I can even think of taking it the track, it needs to be running properly, and because it doesn't run well at all, I would be the one to pay for mechanical repairs on it. As for being a picky driver, yes I'm very picky. I've owned enough fwd cars to know that I will never own one again. I've also driven quite a few rwd and awd cars to know that I prefer rwd. And owning a 400+ whp STI has helped me realize I don't need that much power to have fun.

 

The deciding factor between whether I want to keep the Z or to get a BMW is all down to the chassis. I've heard wonderful things about the E30 chassis and I've also heard good things about the S30 chassis. There is a much larger aftermarket for E30s than there is for the Z's which is always a plus, and the fact that if I want a really nice suspension for the Z, I would need to pretty much fabricate my own parts and I don't have the capabilities to do so, whereas with the BMW I could just enter some credit card information and open a box 4-7 days later and install it on my car.

 

2. The reason I'm starting to grow apart from the Datsun is that every time I try and start it up or drive it for that matter, some new problem arises and renders it inoperable. I've lost count at how many times my dad has brought it in to have something fixed and then something else pops up. I don't know of any shops around here that have any idea of what they are doing on a Datsun, but I know plenty of quality shops that actually specialize in BMWs, and their labor prices are actually quite reasonable.

 

3. As for the waiting until I graduate to get into playing with cars again, I totally agree with you, which is why I'm not spending more then 20 minutes on my 280 until I graduate. The reason I say 20 minutes is because I'm going to bring it back to the shop 1 last time to see if they can fix it, and I am allotting 20 minutes for me to sit in the car after, trying to get it started up, and if it refuses to start/run after 18 minutes, I'll pull out my laptop and post a craigslist ad.

 

I'm sorry if I come across as a mean curmudgeon but this project has not been a pleasant experience, aside from the obvious let downs and complications of any car project, the extra stress of doing the project with my dad has totally ruined the experience for me. It has actually been one of the worst car experiences I've had (worse than having my brother blow up the engine in my brand new STI which led to a $17k rebuild). I still love the Z car, but this project has been too much of an emotional and financial drain to want to continue.

[ZROSSA]

E30's are pretty cool. I have found when playing with my bmw that suspension parts are much less expensive with the datsun. Same with engine parts. The Datsun also has a more easily adjustable/tuneable suspension lay out. Its major pain in the butt to set up the trailing arms on the bmw and its still always a compromise. Like wise for the front. The datsun is also reguarded as a classic car outside the usa. The e30 in this part of the world seems to be driven by fellas with there hats on backwards and rotary engines in them...

 

I will stick with the datto!

 

Douglas

[Leon]

If I were to get a BMW, I'd go for an E36. There's a good chance that an E36 M3 will be my next daily (or an S2000). Reason being that the E36 is a fantastic chassis and the engines have timing chains to go with their twin-cams, versus the belt-driven single-cam E30s. The 325is went from ~168hp to ~190hp when comparing the E30 to E36. That's pretty significant. My brother drives a '93 318is and every time I drive it I tell myself, "I gotta get me one of these!"

 

Then again, that would be my daily. I love my Z, and when I finally get it on the road the sense of accomplishment will be incredible. It's my first project. I've driven the car with a worn out suspension and running on 4 cylinders. It's been down for two years, and it will probably not drive again for another year. I know the feeling of frustration, but if deep down you know that you truly love the car, you will really regret selling it.

[xonix_digital]

It sounds to me that you have fallen out of love with the car.

I say move on to something that you want to build for yourself. That's what the s30 is for me.

 

Finally building my first car, my way, for myself. It is much more rewarding that way.

[sticky280zx]

how do you sink 8k (especially if pops is paying half) and the car doesnt run, how bout your post some pics of the car...

[garvice]

Finish the Z then sell your half to your dad to fund a really nice E30.

[ModernS30]

To be honest. By the way your talking I would just sell the z. It sounds like you already know you are going to sell it so just sell it. Project cars car call project cars because things like this happen. I had my z running, an injector line sprayed gas on the exhaust. Lit of fire, fried some electronics. Now I am going Mega Squirt because of it. My rear end still isn't in the car. I still don't have brakes. This car was supposed to be straight from 280z parts onto the 240z and drive it. It was supposed to take 2 months when I first got it. Its now working closer and closer to being a year.

[palauoriginal]

i was in your same position about 3 years ago. but with a 240sx

i decided to keep the z. Its on jackstands as I type

but im glad i didn't jump ship. z's are unique little cars.

[StrokinIT]

how do you sink 8k (especially if pops is paying half) and the car doesnt run, how bout your post some pics of the car...

 

As stated before, when we were looking to buy the Z in the first place it was between 1 on ebay and 1 on craigslist. My dad didn't want to put too much into it so he drove down to Conn. one day and just bought the Z off craigslist without really looking at it too in depth or anything. So yeah there was a lot of rust, it wasn't really THAT much, but more than we could handle so my dad decided to have a body shop do it, and repaint it also. Well, the quote was for $3k and 6 weeks, 17 months later we got the bill, a whopping $11k. At the time I didn't just have that kind of cash to dish out so I sold my only operating car, a Jeep, to pay for the body work. So up to this point I've put in about $6.5k, including other odds and ends like the body kit my dad wanted for it and replacement struts and bushings. After we got the car back we didn't spend a lot of money on it because 1. we didn't have much to spend, and 2. we were busy replacing bushings, and obviously some bushings are a pain in the ass to remove and frustration arose and thus breaking misc. parts trying to get stuff apart. Another couple hundred bucks later those pieces are replaced, and then my dad hands me an invoice for full interior vinyl replacement, another couple hundred bucks. So here we are about a year ago, car is starting up and engine revs happily, suspension almost completely done, but the brakes are messed up so my dad tells me he found a "deal" for stock replacement brakes, all 4 corners for like $975 or something, and I said if we're going to spend that much money, we're going to get better brakes. So we bought the gt500 big brake kit (~$1400 i think) from a member on here. So there's $8k right there, then obviously needed bigger wheels and tires to fit the brakes, now we're up to $9k+ on my end since my dad refused to pay for any "performance parts" so yeah closer to 10k on my end so far, and the car still isn't drivable, nor able to pass inspection.

 

I don't know how to multiquote replies, but @garvice: I'm thinking of just trying to recuperate the last couple grand I spent on it, (wheels, tires, brakes, and some mechanical work) and then I'm going for a sweet e30. If not, I'll keep the Z and eventually get it on the road, but I definitely need a break from this project.

 

The main thing that I've learned is if you are going to do a project of this magnitude, drive it around stock to get a feel for it, then upgrade minor things as you go (struts, bushings, exhaust, etc.) and see how it affects the ride and whether or not you like the change. This way you can actually enjoy the car and the fruits of your labor as you go.

 

Anyways, attached is a picture from about 2 years ago? I don't remember anymore, it's at the body shop after getting painted. It looks even better now with the new wheels and the monster brake kit on it. Damn it guys you're making it so hard to want to leave this car behind.

[sticky280zx]

id tell pops to piss off on buying all of the stuff or the "body shop" screwing since it sounds like hes just buying parts and saying OK here pay your half...and thats not how it works. i would take all of your paid for "performance parts" off of the car (to sell and get some money back, or sell them to him for what you have in them) and give him the bill for "your half" and say ...pay up and keep the damn car.

 

sounds like ya'll didnt go into this with the right idea, things sorted out, or an order/priority on what to do and at what kind of pace...just sounds like a mixed up jumbled "project" ....and i think dad needs to keep it and you go on your own way.

 

sounds like the body shop scrreeewwwwed you hard...seriously i would never pay the shop if they quoted me 3k (obviously IN WRITING) then tried to tell me its 11k when i pick it up...lol lawyers have a way of making that stupid garbage go away.

Edited October 2, 2010 by sticky280zx

[StrokinIT]

Oh yes I know, that body shop bill was bullshit, and I wanted to get a lawyer involved but my dad said "this is just how things go" so I naively went along with it. This was about 3 years ago now, when I was a freshman in college. I've obviously learned a lot since then but it's sorta too late now. Anyways money isn't a big deal really, I'd rather call this an expensive lesson than get into a big argument with my dad, I've talked to him about all this and neither of us really have the money or willpower right now to do anything about it, but I'll be graduating soon with a very well paying job and I'll either just take the car as is (without paying him off) and finish it at a later date, or just leave it for him. If I can't just take it without paying him off, I'll just take all of my performance parts I have laying around and start my own project car later on down the line, and do it properly this time.

[sticky280zx]

sounds like you have it figured out now....that last part is exactly what i would do. I can understand not wanting to get into it with your dad but i would remind him when taking the car that you still had to pay 1/2 of that BS paint bill, and he was the one that didnt want to pursue it.

 

But yes big lesson learned, and either way you go just make sure you plan it out a little better next go round.

[Pzary3233]

on the simple basis of having owned an e30, and currently own an e36 M3 and a 87 280z. I have not driven MY 280... But I have driven a few before in a motorsports environment (Auto X and track Days). I can say that the S30 a much more enjoyable car, it has the raw feeling that you get from a BMW but it handles better in my opinion.

 

I choose the S30 over buying another e30 simply because I enjoyed driving it a lot more then the e30. The S30 has a much better rear suspension then the trailing arm BS on the E30. You get a LOT more traction it seems with the S30.

 

The E36 is a MUCH more refined car then either of the other two... I am currently building one with an LSx powerplant.

 

So I'd keep the S30 finish it off (Because it WILL be the car that you let get away - don't be that old guy retelling the story) and then buy an e36 and build the BMW afterwards.