Opinions on my rust issue...

[ryanfudger]

Just bought my 240 last week. Bought it from another state; went and picked it up. Was told of and saw some photos of the floorboard rust, but of course, it's worse than I was led to believe (s'okay). I've never sought to fix any rust on a car before. I can not weld...I'm planning on doing as much of the leg work as possible then taking the car to a competent welder/shop to get the welding done. I've searched on the site a lot and seen a lot of people's floorboard repairs and whatnot, but I have specific questions about the extent of the rust in my car...particularly looking for opinions on whether or not I can get away with not touching the frame rails and just patching the problematic areas as opposed to purchasing entirely new floorboards.

 

I plan on using the three-step POR-15 process afterward it's all said and done. Car now lives in Long Beach, California, and will be garaged as long as I own it, so hopefully rust won't pop up again.

 

Here are photos of the driver's side:

 

Edited November 27, 2010 by ryanfudger

[ryanfudger]

Photos of the passenger side:

 

[cygnusx1]

A lot of what I would recommend depends on the rest of the cars condition and your short and long term goals for the car.  Nice pictures by the way.  I wish sellers would take photos like that, BEFORE they sell a "rust free" car to someone.     

 

If you are going to a shop, I am teetering towards the full floor pan replacement route.  Full replacement would probably be just as much labor as patchwork, with a better end result. 

Edited November 27, 2010 by cygnusx1

[rturbo 930]

A lot of what I would recommend depends on the rest of the cars condition and your short and long term goals for the car.  Nice pictures by the way.  I wish sellers would take photos like that, BEFORE they sell a "rust free" car to someone.     

Agreed. When I bought my '71 Z I thought I was getting a car that needed floor patches and doglegs...

 

If you are going to a shop, I am teetering towards the full floor pan replacement route.  Full replacement would probably be just as much labor as patchwork, with a better end result. 

Completely agree. You (or the shop) might be able to just drill out the frame rail spot welds and leave it alone anyway.

[kj280z]

I always counsel folks to try to find the cleanest body that you can prior to modifying.

 

Most times the cost of properly doing all the rust repair exceeds what it would cost to buy a nice clean one.

 

Being that you're in California you should be able to find a few good examples - they are harder to find on the east coast - I looked for 10 years to find my 240z (which I'm now selling)

 

Given what you've shown in the floors, it usually is an indication that there are issues elsewhere as well.

 

Depending on what your intended use for the car will be there are different routes to go.

 

If in fact the rust issues are truly isolated to the floors, that's not too bad of a job, but I'd recommend having a pro do it if you're not experienced in body repair.

[sticky280zx]

amen Ken....ive had a shell forever thats in great shape (that i just sold) for 1500 including all the panels, i try and explain that having to replace the floors with premade panels and a shop will be close to 2K+ but they just dont want to spend it in the beginning for some reason....oh well not my wallet/problem

[ryanfudger]

I bought the car for the SBC conversion, and the fact that it's been unmolested cosmetically. My intention is for a street/track car, but of course, I don't know how long I'll end up keeping it. I don't have any intention of doing a complete restore of the car, but I'd like to be sure that I'm not going to push the pedal to the tarmac one day, you know? There is additional rust in the car, but nothing that looks too bad. I appreciate the opinions; you've talked me out of patchwork. I'll look into ordering some floor panels next week and will plan on begging my way-more-knowledgeable-hot-rod-friend to help me get 'em in place.

[Zinpieces]

I recommend finding a good vocational school, take a couple of welding classes, buy a small MIG, and fix it yourself for one tenth the cost of having it done.

Welding is no mystery it takes practice. Given the shape of your structure I would seriously consider Bad Dog frame rails, either over whats there or as a total replacement. Look through this site an you will find lots of pictures of home done repairs that look professionally done it just takes time.

[kj280z]

I recommend finding a good vocational school, take a couple of welding classes, buy a small MIG, and fix it yourself for one tenth the cost of having it done.

Welding is no mystery it takes practice. Given the shape of your structure I would seriously consider Bad Dog frame rails, either over whats there or as a total replacement. Look through this site an you will find lots of pictures of home done repairs that look professionally done it just takes time.

 

I could not disagree more - the floors and frame rails are a structural part of the car - they need to be done by a pro or someone with experience. With 30 years of auto body experience, I have seen improper jobs (not just in Z cars) that have led to all kinds of really bad problems.

 

Ryan, now that I've seen the rockers and other areas of your Z, I think it will take more expertise to get it right. If the rockers need replacement (they may not), there are very specific ways to do the job which require that precise measurements are taken and that the car does not flex in the process.

 

Find someone that you trust that knows what they're doing and get them to assess the car for you...

 

Based on experience, once you strip some of those areas you may find more than you bargained for, so before starting anything major, make sure you have the whole picture.

 

What I've found over the years is the "the ghost of body men past" -or- better put "the ghost of men who think they're body men" improperly patch and fill things and when you strip away what they've done you find a real mess. I hope you don't have any of those hidden surprises, but there are enough indications present in the pictures to take a much closer look at things before proceeding - again - get the whole picture - sometimes it's best to find a perfect shell and work from there. Once you add up the work required by a pro and the work you can tackle yourself you'll have your answer.

[rturbo 930]

Ken, are you saying no one should try to fix their car themselves? I think that's a little ridiculous. There's no reason someone that has thoroughly educated themselves on the repair can not adequately do it themselves. It's not rocket science. Not to mention, no one becomes good at body repair by sending their car off to a pro.

 

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you're giving the average person enough credit.

Edited November 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[ryanfudger]

I won't be doing anything to the car without guidance. Taking the car to my friend who restores cars professionally in the next week or two; he's gonna take a look and we'll go from there. I'll be sure to snap some photos along the way.

[rturbo 930]

double post

Edited November 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[ryanfudger]

Just to say it... I'm sure I could, with a lot of research, tackle this myself—-but that's not what I want. I'd rather watch someone do it right and learn from it.

[kj280z]

Ken, are you saying no one should try to fix their car themselves? I think that's a little ridiculous. There's no reason someone that has thoroughly educated themselves on the repair can not adequately do it themselves. It's not rocket science. Not to mention, no one becomes good at body repair by sending their car off to a pro.

 

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you're giving the average person enough credit.

 

No - I'm saying that from experience I've seen way too many guys "think' they have the skills and knowledge. And you don't "learn" autobody on structural repairs!! WOW! You obviously have not spent much time around a collision repair facility!

 

Your comment about it being ridiculous that any common Joe can replace frame rails - It's not ridiculous at all. What's ridiculous is the hundreds of examples I've seen of "do it yourselfers" putting their lives and their passengers lives in jeopardy taking a very important and required skill set for granted. Many are not safe for the road! SO now you also jeopardize innocent people driving next to you!

 

Having seen thousands of cars come through our shop I've seen the results first hand - and I'm talking some serious stuff - Please don't make light of how important it is to do the structural aspects of a restoration properly - there's nothing ridiculous about it and the "average person" does not have the skills to do it most of the time - There's reasons why it takes proper training AND experience to do a job properly. It drives me crazy when people make light of it like "anyone can do it"

[rturbo 930]

No - I'm saying that from experience I've seen way too many guys "think' they have the skills and knowledge. And you don't "learn" autobody on structural repairs!! WOW! You obviously have not spent much time around a collision repair facility!

 

Your comment about it being ridiculous that any common Joe can replace frame rails - It's not ridiculous at all. What's ridiculous is the hundreds of examples I've seen of "do it yourselfers" putting their lives and their passengers lives in jeopardy taking a very important and required skill set for granted. Many are not safe for the road! SO now you also jeopardize innocent people driving next to you!

 

Having seen thousands of cars come through our shop I've seen the results first hand - and I'm talking some serious stuff - Please don't make light of how important it is to do the structural aspects of a restoration properly - there's nothing ridiculous about it and the "average person" does not have the skills to do it most of the time - There's reasons why it takes proper training AND experience to do a job properly. It drives me crazy when people make light of it like "anyone can do it"

That's why I put in the clause that they have thoroughly educated themselves, which you seem to have missed. Of course I don't think anyone can pick up a welder and properly do the repair. But you are suggesting that anyone that does not do auto repair work for a living cannot repair their car. That is what I am saying is ridiculous. There's a lot of people on here who are qualified to do their own work that do not do auto work for a living.

 

And you're right, I have not spent any time around an collision repair facility.

 

Also, if you don't mind, help me see what I'm missing. How would you go about replacing his floors?

Edited November 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[kj280z]

That's why I put in the clause that they have thoroughly educated themselves, which you seem to have missed. Of course I don't think anyone can pick up a welder and properly do the repair. But you are suggesting that anyone that does not do auto repair work for a living cannot repair their car. That is what I am saying is ridiculous. There's a lot of people on here who are qualified to do their own work that do not do auto work for a living.

 

And you're right, I have not spent any time around an collision repair facility.

 

Also, if you don't mind, help me see what I'm missing. How would you go about replacing his floors?

 

And you seem to miss the point that I'm talking about STRUCTURAL repair - Bud - you won't get me to agree - so we will stop it here.

 

You obviously don't speak from experience, so there is no use continuing this - go ahead and weld in your own frame rails - you seem to be an expert if you read a book and educate yourself...

 

I'm just so tired of seeing stuff done so poorly with folks trying to save a buck at the expense of their own safety and others minimizing things as you have.

 

The horrific stuff that happens as a result -which I have seen first hand - is why I get upset when I see comments like this - they all rear their ugly head when you get in an accident with an already not very crash friendly car...

 

When you get a car delivered to your shop full of blood where someone apparently died because a do it yourselfer thought they could pull off a repair - which I have personally seen several times, you will change your opinion - nothing I can tell you in this thread will have the required impact because you need the training to understand what I'm talking about.

[rturbo 930]

you seem to be an expert if you read a book and educate yourself...

I never said that made me, or anyone else, an expert.

 

Would you mind telling me how you would replace a set of floor pans so that I can see what I'm missing? I really just don't get what's so crucial that only a professional can do it.

Edited November 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[kj280z]

I never said that made me, or anyone else, an expert.

 

Would you mind telling me how you would replace a set of floor pans so that I can see what I'm missing? I really just don't get what's so crucial that only a professional can do it.

 

I have given Ryan proper advise based on the topic - I'm going to refrain from replying any further - my previous posts reflect my thoughts and experience... If that doesn't carry any weight then I guess you can go get advise from others. So this is my last post on this topic... Ryan if you need anything further go head and PM me.

 

As for the rest, when you don't understand weld penetration, proper bracing, and how to get the FRAME RAIL replacement (rturbo 930 keeps ignoring that) straight in conjunction with the floor repair and tying things in correctly, there's more to it than just a small hole repair... In Ryan's case, it is borderline - can't tell without more stuff being stripped to see the whole picture as I have stated... I also discussed the rocker panels - again - not a job I would recommend a NOOB attempt. - Not sure if Ryans are solid or not, but with the doglegs being in the condition they are, there is enough reason to suspect them - I would be checking them... Anyway

 

To share a story - I saw floors welded (not a Z, but still relevant) in where the owner did it himself and thought he did a great job, got into a collision and his seat was ejected along with the floor it was attached to right through the front windshield (well almost)... The driver hit his head pretty good on the steering wheel and windshield. He survived, but the rear welds let loose in addition to the thin remaining metal that it was welded to failed. I believe it was a buggy kinda car (it was a long time ago). The seats were bolted directly to the floors (great engineering) I guess he read the book

Edited November 28, 2010 by kjones

[Zman0690]

I'm not going to take a side here but I am going to say that after having 2 different body shops screw up 2 different 240's, one who was supposed to "replace" my floor pans that I eventually found out used sheet metal screws and then cut the extra off and covered it with undercoating and the other who basically just took the replacement parts and welded them directly over the rust, I have chosen to properly educate myself and do all work to my cars. However if you are going to take it somewhere PLEASE find someone who has had similar work done to their car and get a firsthand view of the quality, do not take someones word. Also if the rusts is as bad as its looks their is most definitely some frame rail damage that might as well be fixed while you are at it and if you can't afford it then wait till you can, I speak from experience on this.

[SHO-Z]

It looks like that 240 needs a donor car for all of the parts and pieces it needs. That much rust is more than the average person would want to deal with fabricating all of the stuff that is needed. Try to find a roller 260 0r 280 and cut out what you need or graft the best of the 240 to the 260 or 280.