Bernardd Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 So you guys are basing the cost of building an L on what others have screwed up? Perhaps a book fourteen years old isn't the right place to look for parts or part numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddmanout84 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) So you guys are basing the cost of building an L on what others have screwed up? Perhaps a book fourteen years old isn't the right place to look for parts or part numbers. Basing the costs on what others screwed up? Hell no, I just added that little anecdote as an explanation as to why one would look for parts. Cost is based on the price of parts ONLY. Whether your bearings fail because of improper installation procedures or 30 years of oil deposits and grit doesn't matter. You still need a new set of bearings. Or another motor to run into the ground and hope for the best. THAT'S my point. We're also not just basing this on solely looking through an just an old book for parts. The book is merely an indication for how limited parts availability is NOW. If it was NLA then, it will be much harder if not impossible to find now. The demand for Datsun parts has hardly increased since then, so the market has most definitely shrunk. Those were most of the good parts, you can probably count the selection currently available on one hand. Edited January 23, 2011 by Oddmanout84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddmanout84 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 This is why a lot of people like Tony D talk about not even rebuilding the L motor, or even looking for motors that have been rebuilt because often more times than not, it hasn't been rebuilt even as well as it would have been done from the factory! I understand though. It's getting harder to find these motors with lower miles, while the KA motors people are finding for $500 and under are in much better overall shape. But both motors, if in good shape, have no reason to be cracked open at 350hp. And the KA swap can be done for CHEAP. Was I the only one watching the thread of the budget KA build? (can't remember the user, but the car was white, ran on ethanol) That was a cheaper build than even the CHEAPEST of the L28ET guys I've seen pushing those HP numbers. And they beat that car like a rag doll at the track over and over again with little to no real engine issues. YES. Tony mentioned that to me before in another thread when I posted about my engine failing. I really, really wish now that I had known about how plausible a turbo KA24DE when I started this car. Especially that video of Subtledriver's $1500 KA build. I would definitely have gone KA instead had I known. Much cheaper, much better parts availability, highly economical. I could have been making a LOT more HP than I am now. It may not be a straight 6, but I'm certainly willing to compromise in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I went looked up rebuild parts for both engines. Everything available for the L same as the KA except you don't need to buy a turbo exhaust manifold, or make a oil feed/return for the L. Pretty much a wash except the fab work needed for the KA. I would still like to hear what you can't find for the L.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) I went looked up rebuild parts for both engines. Everything available for the L same as the KA except you don't need to buy a turbo exhaust manifold, or make a oil feed/return for the L. Pretty much a wash except the fab work needed for the KA. I would still like to hear what you can't find for the L.... Bernardd - I challenge you to share the list with us - I don't think you've analyzed it correctly... The pistons are cheaper - and you only need 4 vs 6 for the L Motor parts, same with rods, rings, head gasket, bearings etc etc etc... the list goes on and on... Parts availability and aftermarket parts and support are FAR superior for the KA - face it the L Motor is 30 year old technology If you simply "like" the L motor better than the KA, just say it - you're entitled to your opinion, but the argument you're trying to make doesn't hold any water Plus you can't buy Turbo Headers for the L Motor so you're stuck with the stock turbo L manifold which in many cases requires modification which adds to the cost, also Intake manifold choices available for the KA are pretty impressive with very low cost. Additionally, the KA PCM can be tuned and thus the stock KA harness can be used - this is a huge savings over aftermarket fuel injection required for a proper L Motor turbo setup - yes some folks use the 280zxt ECU but it has its limitations Edited January 24, 2011 by kj280z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) Do you really think the lack of a cheap custom manifold is going to stall the 350whp L engine? Or the fact that I need to swap in a z31 ecu or megasquirt? I have no preference for either motor, I tune both of them regularly. I would still like to know what is needed and can't be found for the L.... Just kidding, I have always had good luck with the L engine and if anything this thread has motivated me to find the parts for a 600hp engine. I did find a complete forged bottom end rebuild kit with rods, copper headgasket, seals, bearings etc for 150.00 dollars more than the same kit for the KA. That's way too much, I'm looking for a single cam KA on craiglist right now.... Edited January 24, 2011 by Bernardd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpuma8 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 I sure would like to find a better fuel rail so that I can run bigger injectors but I can't find one since Pallnet doesn't make any anymore. The whole modifying the turbo exhaust manifold makes me nervous too. Can you find good alternatives to those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I run a stock rail with mazda rx7 injectors that flow 680cc on the stock fuel rail. You can buy fuel rail stock then drill and tap it for barb fittings. What do you want to modify on the exhaust manifold? Mine has the external wastegate welded to it with a mig welder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddmanout84 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I sure would like to find a better fuel rail so that I can run bigger injectors but I can't find one since Pallnet doesn't make any anymore. The whole modifying the turbo exhaust manifold makes me nervous too. Can you find good alternatives to those? There were quite a few o-ring and barb fitting fuel rails on ebay recently, and they (and JSK and pallnet designs) pop up every so often. But as Bernardd said, you can make one yourself if you buy some stock and know someone who can bore it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I didn't take the time to read through this so if you haven't got your answer. Why in the hell would you swap in a crappy underpowered 4 cylinder for a moderately powered turbo inline 6? If your going to use a KA24 at least run the DOHC, that is already stock a difference of like 15hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Do you really think the lack of a cheap custom manifold is going to stall the 350whp L engine? Or the fact that I need to swap in a z31 ecu or megasquirt? I have no preference for either motor, I tune both of them regularly. I would still like to know what is needed and can't be found for the L.... For the most part, I'm with you. At 350whp the L engine is a great option. The big question mark is what it costs to get a hold of one and what it takes to get it to the point of being ready to go. Many of the L28ET's you find have super high mileage with iffy compression test numbers. The YOUNGEST one, unopened from the factory, will be 27 years old now! 5-10 years ago low mile examples could be found, but it's gotten harder. Low mile blocks are much easier to find, but then you have to already have your exhaust manifold, turbo, wiring harness, AFM, ECU, and Dizzy to throw onto another long block. IF you can just go onto craigslist and find a L28ET for $500, or a whole donor car for $750 then sure GET IT!!!! I have a L28ET in my car and I really love it. That being said, the factory ECU SUCKS ARSE!!! I'm getting my shopping list ready to go megasquirt and it's probably going to cost me a touch over $800. If I had a KA I could just get it programmed for $100. That's a bit of cost savings. I didn't take the time to read through this so if you haven't got your answer. Why in the hell would you swap in a crappy underpowered 4 cylinder for a moderately powered turbo inline 6? If your going to use a KA24 at least run the DOHC, that is already stock a difference of like 15hp. I'm having a hard time finding it, but once upon a time 1 Fast Z posted his personal numbers for KA head flow, SOHC and DOHC, and compared them to stock P90 and his best P90 port job and the numbers were hard to argue with. The DOHC stock flows insanely well, and the SOHC head flowed better than the P90 as well! Here's the link on his site about the DOHC flow numbers: http://bandmzcars.com/FrankPorted1.html And considering the KA is 2.4 liters stock it's not down much on displacement to the "moderately powered inline 6" you talk about. And yes, the KA will only rev to about 6500, but most turbo L motors under 400hp without head work are making peak power under 6k anyways.... Let's all just face it, both of these motor are great budget options, but neither is "better" or "best". Different strokes for different folks. Personally, though I'm going MS soon, I'll probably be swapping in a SR within a few years here. But that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceVance Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 At least an SR justifies the effort of swapping an engine. Sure you can make some power with a SOHC KA, and cheap too, but its on such a level playing field with the L28 despite being considerably newer. Is it really worth it to the end user to do a swap just for SOHC KA? Why not swap UP. SR20s may not be as easy to find, but they can be found, and they offer so much more potential out of the box... What extra money you spend initialy will be well worth it. I think I said it before, there is a reason everybody swaps their KAs out. Think about it; swapping engines is the very nature of hot rodding. Take the leanest frame and put in the biggest nastiest engine you can. If all you can afford to put in is an engine that's within arms reach of your original motor... What's the point? Frankenstein was an 8' colossus. If he had been pieced together to form a 5' 4" monster could he even be called such? If your going to the work, go for some real potential, some real power! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddmanout84 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 At least an SR justifies the effort of swapping an engine. Sure you can make some power with a SOHC KA, and cheap too, but its on such a level playing field with the L28 despite being considerably newer. Is it really worth it to the end user to do a swap just for SOHC KA? Why not swap UP. SR20s may not be as easy to find, but they can be found, and they offer so much more potential out of the box... What extra money you spend initialy will be well worth it. I think I said it before, there is a reason everybody swaps their KAs out. Think about it; swapping engines is the very nature of hot rodding. Take the leanest frame and put in the biggest nastiest engine you can. If all you can afford to put in is an engine that's within arms reach of your original motor... What's the point? Frankenstein was an 8' colossus. If he had been pieced together to form a 5' 4" monster could he even be called such? If your going to the work, go for some real potential, some real power! The reason more often than not is because its JDM tyte, yo. Really, the SR isn't *that* much better, its more just a different animal than anything. It has less displacement, less torque, inferior rocker arms (to KA shim over bucket). It has higher horsepower and a higher RPM limit, but it baffles me that this is another reason people insist its a better drift motor... because torque is more responsible for breaking the wheels loose. SR's are better out of the box, but a turbo KA has more potential for a lower price. You can have a stock $2000 SR20DET swap or a dirt cheap $500 KA24DE and $1500 left for mods. Frankenstein was the name of the man who made the monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceVance Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 The reason more often than not is because its JDM tyte, yo. I will admit that's probably true in most cases, but the aftermarket follows the money... And besides, when there's more rice-bois with parts they can't afford it means more deals for you when they have to decide between that and rent! Missed out on a set of recaros a few months back... never installed, sold them for $200. Guy had an SR20det in his garage waiting to go in his 240sx too... I was wondering if I would get called on the Frankenstein thing, you are absolutely correct. I always preferred Wilde or Stoker to Shelley anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Think about it; swapping engines is the very nature of hot rodding. Take the leanest frame and put in the biggest nastiest engine you can. If all you can afford to put in is an engine that's within arms reach of your original motor... What's the point? That was my point to begin with. CONVERTING the motor that the S30 ALREADY HAS, into a turbo motor by finding bits of it here and there will cost you MORE money than converting a KA to a turbo motor. Finding a complete L28ET in GOOD SHAPE has gotten expensive. This leads me to conclude, that for a real budget minded person the KA is on an even playing field with the L28ET, or even has a slight advantage. But, if you already have a L28ET, there's not really any point in switching at that point. Just stick with what you have, since changing motors will most likely end up costing more money in the long run. I personally want to go SR over KA for many reasons other than the whole "X motor has more HP potential for the $ invested". But overall you're right oddmanout, the KA for $500 is a killer motor that with the cost difference can really do some damage to the SR swap. That being said, I'll be spending closer to $1500 on my motor+tranny+wiring harness+ECU and Sensors, but a red top, not black top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceVance Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 He does already has the L28et, that's why I originally pushed for him to keep that. If he deems a swap necessary, then its not like he would be hurting for an engine while he saves up for a better platform than a SOHC KA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 How much is a good running L28et with even compression and 41k mi worth? I have another one with 85k on it. Perhaps I should be selling these engines rather than using them..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I've seen plenty of piss-poor examples go for $500 missing parts. I was lucky to snag my last longblock for $250 minus turbo, wiring harness, AFM, ECU. It was basically valve cover to oil pan with the exhaust manifold on it. And I had to pull it myself at the guys house! And I'm in the bay area where there's a huge concentration of Z cars. A GOOD condition motor that's 100% complete, ready for a swap, should fetch at least a $800 minimum anywhere in the country, over $1k would still be a fair price in this market right now in other places. I haven't seen a donor car (even non-running) on craigslist for under $2k lately. Edit: Oh, and I never said the OP SHOULD get a KA. I simply said that in certain circumstances it might be just as good of a swap. I'm the one who said to ditch the T5 and go with the KA trans on the L series and stick with it. I just wanted my opinion to be rounded so that people don't come to the conclusion that the L28ET is the be-all end-all budget option. Edited January 25, 2011 by Gollum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I thought I would add some of my personal opinion to this thread. Im not impressed by any of the KA or SR engines. The SR has 2 major flaws. Valve train harmonic issues (that requires valve spring replacement) and Rod bearing issues from which I have yet to discover the culprit(but believe it to be inherent to the engine design and fuel map). The KA has an array of issues. There are 2 main variants of the KA, the single cam and the dual cam. Both of these engines share the L series heritage, but do not share the L series durability. Chances are also good that you find yourself a KA that has been ape raped by some wannabe drifto. If you get lucky and find a virgin KA to work with the first downfall is the cylinder wall material. Im not a metalurgist, but leave an L out in the rain for a few days and leave a KA out in the rain at the same time. One will hone back and be pretty much in spec, the other will have heavy pitting an require a bore! The KA cylinder wall material is easily damaged and not strong like the "L gata". The next thing to concern yourself with is timing chain. The single cam is very much like the L, but has a light duty chain. The dual cam was an afterthought or something and has left the engine with extra cam chain slack and more tensioners. Not to mention the chain slap issues! This equals less accurate cam timing and more fictional rotating losses. Lets go a little further down the rabbit hole for the last point of interest. The KA has a big stroke and big bore. This motor was setup for torque. Why Nissan ever chose to put either of these engines into a car is beyond me. This particular 4 cylinder is more conducive to small mini/light truck like the infamous D21. Not to say they cant but they seemed to have better selections at the time to use for their cars(like the SR). In the past my personal favorite of these is the KA24e single cam. Its has the least issues and is the cheapest to come across if you dont mind having to do a complete rebuild. But then do you really want to be able to tell whether or not you have a passenger in the car? To tie this together with the title for the money I believe personally when it comes to S30 Z cars Id stick to a 6 or 8 cylinder for your money and many other reasons. Swapping engines like a KA or SR can be just as expensive as just shelling out the cash to build the L. SR swaps look cool, but the guys doing them right are forking out much more than a junkyard L turbo swap. Last Turbo L swap I did was under $1000 and produced a low 12 second 1/4 260z. The car weighed 2704lbs with me in it. I never dyno'd it but Im sure for that weight and time I was over 300hp and torques. Dont know where the slip is or Id give more specifics(made my runs back in late '04). Again this is my opinion and my observations that I have based it upon. Nathan you just missed the $500 zxt up near you on CL. There was a registered runner down here in Monterey a few months back for the same price. They can still be had if you have a good eye. Edited January 25, 2011 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Nathan you just missed the $500 zxt up near you on CL. There was a registered runner down here in Monterey a few months back for the same price. They can still be had if you have a good eye. First off, quality post. Thank you. And this line shows why I STILL recommend the L28ET to the right person. If you're willing to take your time, they're still a great budget option. If you want to spend a few months looking around you'll probably come across a good deal. But to keep it budget, you need to be willing to fiddle with it's finiky EFI which can be a chore. It has to be the right person is all. It certainly brings a humble understanding of tuning though. For those that want to buy an engine this week... There ARE other options. I can find VQ's all day long from importers Chevy and Ford engines grow like weeds SR's (despite their issues) are extremely plentiful KA's are nearly free Point being, many people automatically peg themselves into a singular option based on budget. In reality there's lots of options and lots of reasons to go with all of them. When I came to hybridZ, and Z cars in general, back in 03' I had a very limited view of engine options and figured I'd buy a Z and put a 350 chevy in one. Now I think that's the last option I'd ever consider, simply because there are so many wonderful options with these cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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