kj280z Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) Hey all I'd like to get some opinions on how to handle a situation. I shipped a part out of the country. It was sent via USPS to <correction> Norway. The Post Office did not have a way for me to insure it. It was shipped at least 45 days ago and I've gone to the post office and asked for information about the package and they say they have no way to track it. Apparently, the item never arrived in Norway. The person would like a refund. I no longer have the part, so I'd have to eat this cost. It doesn't feel right that this cost becomes my responsibility, but I'd like to hear your thoughts... I suppose I've learned my lesson that I will now only sell to folks in the US, but anyway... Since I value my reputation and always try to do the right thing I'd like to solicit your opinions UGH Ken Edited April 9, 2011 by kj280z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 It can take 90 days to reach Holland. I shipped manifolds via surface (you don't state surface or air mail) and it took AT LEAST two months to get from CA to Xander in Holland, as well as to Frank 280ZX. Surface is more than the slow boat. And stuff seems to disapear regularly as well. Insurance is the only recourse in situations like this. I would compromise and ask forbearance for another 45 days to MAKE SURE it isn't on a boat or wharf stuck in quarrantine some place. And next time, make them pay for Air Mail. Same thing to Australia. Months via surface. But coming this way from Oz it's only a couple weeks, if that. And EMS post? Hell, that shows up faster than something mailed from Phoenix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 It was sent via surface mail. My wife handled the shipping at the post office and she says the clerk insisted there was no way to insure it - I was concerned about the same thing... It was too cost prohibitive to send via air mail unfortunately... The guy is getting impatient and I want to manage the situation as best I can... I fear it's lost - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) Can you do a 50% partial refund in good faith, stating that if the part arrives within X more days, or doesn't, then the balance of the debt will be settled, depending on what happens. If it does get lost, with no tracking or insurance than there is not much you can do. Edited April 9, 2011 by cygnusx1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Can you do a 50% partial refund in good faith, stating that if the part arrives within X more days, or doesn't, then the balance of the debt will be settled, depending on what happens. If it does get lost, with no tracking or insurance than there is not much you can do. Hmmm taking responsibility (partially) for the USPS losing this - basically that makes it a double loss since the shipping cost was expensive (the buyer paid for it but would also want a refund for that I assume...) So in essence the impact to me in that case is I no longer have the part and now have to layout cost (so refunding doubles my loss since I no longer have the part to resell) Plus I believe the guy is honest but there's no way to ever know if it arrives in the future after I've given any portion of the money back - tough situation - I know Not sure what to do!! Plus - anyone could say they never received a part (not that it happened in this case) in situations like this and there's no way to handle that easily since tracking and insurance apparently wasn't an option when my wife shipped it. Love to hear more opinions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Hmmm taking responsibility (partially) for the USPS losing this - basically that makes it a double loss since the shipping cost was expensive (the buyer paid for it but would also want a refund for that I assume...) So in essence the impact to me in that case is I no longer have the part and now have to layout cost (so refunding doubles my loss since I no longer have the part to resell) Plus I believe the guy is honest but there's no way to ever know if it arrives in the future after I've given any portion of the money back - tough situation - I know Not sure what to do!! Plus - anyone could say they never received a part (not that it happened in this case) in situations like this and there's no way to handle that easily since tracking and insurance apparently wasn't an option when my wife shipped it. Love to hear more opinions... Correction - it was shipped to Norway - the stuff I sent to Holland made it there just fine Are there differences in shipping from US to Norway that would cause it to take this long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Can you show proof to the buyer it was mailed (USPS receipts)? If so, I don't think you should have to eat it... ( just my opinion though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 That proof of mailing is good thing, it would partially justify the 'sorry man, take it up with the post office' and not sending the refund. Any of those countries can take a while by surface freight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I shipped a L20B timing cover to Norway, and it took 54 days to get there from kentucky, shipped priority mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 I shipped a L20B timing cover to Norway, and it took 54 days to get there from kentucky, shipped priority mail. Wow - maybe we're being too impatient? As far as proof I mailed it - my wife is looking for it. She handled mailing it for me since it had to be taken to the post office and mailed from there... My wife usually drops off all of my shipments to a local pack and ship that specializes in FEDEX, so this was a diversion from the norm... if we had sent it from the normal place I could just go there and ask the owner for the receipt. The post office has proven to be useless and has no ability to help... unreal. I have an extra one of the parts that I had sent - I'm considering trying to send another one (which means I have to eat the shipping and the cost of the part again). Since it's a small part, I may try a different method of shipment - any ideas on the best way to ship to Norway? This will be my last attempt if I decide to eat this, so I want to get it right... I don't think a refund is appropriate, but I would like to try to satisfy the transaction... Think I should request half the shipping cost or something to try it again? Appreciate your thoughts and opinions - thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I'd really give it at least 60 days, that is what I would consider 'normal' surface shipping time to Europe, seems others experience is similar to mine so you might want to link him to this thread as some support for waiting a couple of weeks more... I know Frank 280ZX stopped shipping things THIS direction from Holland as inside the country the Dutch Postal System could track it, and in fact could track it to the port in New Orleans... From there it entered the black hole that is the USPS. Dr. Demming hated these people, and for good reason! Problem is you chucked your stuff straight to the black hole to begin with so there's not much hope of finding it other than waiting the 'normal' shipping time which is around 2 months (or slightly longer in my case...) When I ship through USPS I ALWAYS use my credit card. If I ever loose the registered receipts, etc... I at least have a transaction record on my credit card statement that month. And I can access that electronically for 12 months...but which time I believe the USPS might get it done. Though recently there have been some stories from post cards from New Orleans being posted in 1962 showing up, etc... So in some cases it takes them a while. Frankly, when it comes to the other countries they do a better job with the mails in many respects. You routinely send cash packets through the mail within Japan. Here they tell us not to... Ahhh well, what can you do? Wait a while longer, and wait a bit more. At this point, whats another two or three weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I would refund the money in whole or arrange something with the buyer to refund in part. To tell someone in Norway "just deal with the USPS yourself" is about as rude a response that I can imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Yeah, it becomes hard when the Postal System sets up a situation where transit times are terrible and everybody lives in an electronic age and expects an MTV delivery of their parts---for free! Ultimately without proof of shipment, you really don't have a lot to stand on from what I see in respect to asking him to wait because you can PROVE you mailed it. Now, as to someone overseas taking a delivery of a non-registered, no signature required for delivery package and claiming non-receipt...I'm sure that has never happened! It comes down to trust in the end. The best case I can see if this truly is 'lost in the mail' and doesn't show up in the next two weeks is that you keep the shipping funds (ESPECIALLY if you have the recieipt for the shipping charges) and you refund the cost of the part. With no receipt proving you actually mailed it...well trust goes only so far. That might justify him asking for shipping costs as well. The lesson learned is 'keep all your receipts' and what I like to do is take photos of the part, the part in the box, the box sealed up and ready to mail, and I scan the receipts for the shipping and send it all in an e-mail the day it goes. This is what I did with PJO, who lives in Norway. Things did take forever to get to him...but with all that documentation on the front end, there wasn't a lot of 'why isn't it here yet?' kind of e-mails. Come to think of it, I think I never sent the receipts for the last batch of tools I sent him... I think that was $400 worth of stuff, plus shipping. I'm sure that will be brought up in the divorce at some point as miscreant use of household funds... If it gets lost, with the photos and e-mails I thin have in good faith given him everything up front that knows I did what I could. It will strongly mitigate his anger against YOU for possibly 'screwing him'... and may open the path to a mutual negotiation that lets you keep half the funds and refund him half the total. With the understanding that if it shows up later he should send the same photographs back to you upon receipt for a claim or simply fodder to go to the Post Office and get Postal with the Benelli... It's poops-city in this situation. Nobody will 'win' the best you both can hope for is to 'lose less.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) I would refund the money in whole or arrange something with the buyer to refund in part. To tell someone in Norway "just deal with the USPS yourself" is about as rude a response that I can imagine. I didn't tell anyone "just deal with the USPS yourself" - not sure how you jumped to that conclusion! I'M the one who has dealt with the post office and gotten nowhere and if you read several of the other posts MANY folks have experienced much longer times for things to get there AND there's no proof either way that it ever arrives... If you look at it from the other point of view (not that I suspect this happened but you never know) - anyone could say "it never arrived give me my money back", when they could have received it - one of the major points here is there's no way to track it. The extra set of dynamics at play here is also the USPS and the fact that it is "the black hole" in international shipping and they have no way to track or insure shipments to Norway. My eBay feedback is 100% with a few hundred transactions and I will always do the right thing... I've certainly learned that I will never ship another item outside of the country ever again unless it's clear that once it leaves it's non refundable and they buy at their own risk! In this case, I did everything right - the item was packed correctly, shipped via the only method available to me and what else can anyone do given the circumstances??? If there was a method for insuring things I obviously would have done so - but those are not options shipping from US to Norway Edited April 10, 2011 by kj280z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 Yeah, it becomes hard when the Postal System sets up a situation where transit times are terrible and everybody lives in an electronic age and expects an MTV delivery of their parts---for free! Ultimately without proof of shipment, you really don't have a lot to stand on from what I see in respect to asking him to wait because you can PROVE you mailed it. Now, as to someone overseas taking a delivery of a non-registered, no signature required for delivery package and claiming non-receipt...I'm sure that has never happened! It comes down to trust in the end. The best case I can see if this truly is 'lost in the mail' and doesn't show up in the next two weeks is that you keep the shipping funds (ESPECIALLY if you have the recieipt for the shipping charges) and you refund the cost of the part. With no receipt proving you actually mailed it...well trust goes only so far. That might justify him asking for shipping costs as well. The lesson learned is 'keep all your receipts' and what I like to do is take photos of the part, the part in the box, the box sealed up and ready to mail, and I scan the receipts for the shipping and send it all in an e-mail the day it goes. This is what I did with PJO, who lives in Norway. Things did take forever to get to him...but with all that documentation on the front end, there wasn't a lot of 'why isn't it here yet?' kind of e-mails. Come to think of it, I think I never sent the receipts for the last batch of tools I sent him... I think that was $400 worth of stuff, plus shipping. I'm sure that will be brought up in the divorce at some point as miscreant use of household funds... If it gets lost, with the photos and e-mails I thin have in good faith given him everything up front that knows I did what I could. It will strongly mitigate his anger against YOU for possibly 'screwing him'... and may open the path to a mutual negotiation that lets you keep half the funds and refund him half the total. With the understanding that if it shows up later he should send the same photographs back to you upon receipt for a claim or simply fodder to go to the Post Office and get Postal with the Benelli... It's poops-city in this situation. Nobody will 'win' the best you both can hope for is to 'lose less.' Trust me Tony - if it comes down to that, we'll find the receipt - it was shipped and done so correctly - it'll be a pain, but I'll get the wife to dig through her receipts more thoroughly - hasn't been a priority because I'm positive it was shipped correctly. I'm more inclined to wait - I did some searching on the internet - there's reports of things taking 6 months or longer to get there - I had no experience ever trying it before, so I made a natural assumption it would take a fairly reasonable (a few weeks at most) amount of time - USPS will no longer get any of my business after this episode! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) Can you show proof to the buyer it was mailed (USPS receipts)? If so, I don't think you should have to eat it... ( just my opinion though) I'm working on trying to find the receipt (it was shipped over 45 days ago so it's not on the top of the pile) - as you can see by my other posts my wife handled shipping it... I certainly don't want anyone feeling like they got screwed so I'll figure out something, so in the end no one comes away with a good result in these cases - bummer Insurance would have solved the problem - but that wasn't an option... plus I'm sure if I tried to put in a insurance claim (hypothetically since that isn't an option), they'd require more time to go by to make sure it is actually lost vs. just taking a very long time... Edited April 10, 2011 by kj280z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 In Frank's case of shipping Ring and Pinions...he shipped insured Dutch Post, which tracked his first shipment to New Orleans... then it was lost. Claimed the insured amount, no problem... Shipped another one (insured for like $500 for a used R&P set) and Dutch Post tracked to New Orleans...three days before Katrina. OOPS! Repeat above... Now, the R&P sets were sold for someting under $500, so Frank was doing O.K. with the USPS loosing his shipments and having the DUTCH POSTAL SERVICE cover their incompetence. But we're talking 6+ months down the road and the guy is now starting to blackball Frank for not getting him his parts. Due to the insurance, Frank could refund the parts cost even though nothing he did was at fault, and he DID have tracking information saying they DID reach the port and get turned over to US Customs for clearance and release to USPS. It's why I do so love the EMS post. I've had things shipped from Japan (drop shipped actually, from the manufacturer sold through someone on Australia) and the parts show up by the MANAGER of the local post office in his personal car. Why? Because that is what EMS Post requirements say: Deliver within X hours of receipt at responsible office. I've had the manager dropping off Flywheels at 10AM, and the standard delivery coming around 2PM, and our UPS Brown Van show up either at 8AM or 6PM depending on wether it's red, blue or brown standard groundtrack. But we are screwed with the services our Post Office Offers. EMS post was available in Morocco, and I sent my dad his Fez and ******...cost $129 to send $50 worth of parts. But guess what? From the Post Office in Felada / Mohammedia Morocco I could track my package straight to my fathers door by post office login somehow... and knew within 2 hours of when he got it! I called in the late evening and it was "Hey, your package just arrived!" Yeah dad, I know.... I think a lot of guys here in the USA get burned because of the incompetence of our Postal System. And some by the unwillingness of people to pay for a traceable, insurable shipping method. A lot of time people have things shipped to me, and I then Trans-Ship them with the above mentioned photos and receipts. Sure it adds to the cost, but many times I can consolidate packaging and considerably decrease the DIM-Weight of a shipment which the original seller (like Jegs or Summitt) will charge a fortune for. I have shipped master gasket sets to people in the UK in a box 1/4 the size of the "Fel Pro Card Stock" they came on, simply to give head gaskets room in a universal card...and then a box oversized to accomodate the largest dimensions of the gasket card. Hell, a Ziplock and a cut down box really does wonders. I've shipped stuff to myself from overseas...but now with the travelling I can usually accomodate large items in my spare duffel bag I carry around for those items. Even with an oversized article charge on commercial flights, it's only a $50 or $100 charge. I mean, really if these guys want these parts they really should make a big list, get it consolidated at one point, and then take a holiday and handcarry the stuff back through their local customs at the airport. Chances are for stuff not in 'new boxes' meaning take it all out and stick it in your bag loose...you won't pay any duty at all! If you do, it's really minimal. But I digress... Hope this works out. I think in a couple of weeks you will (hopefully) get an e-mail apologizing for impatience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted April 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 10, 2011 I didn't tell anyone "just deal with the USPS yourself" - not sure how you jumped to that conclusion! Easy there big fella. Drax was referring to post 8. You asked for opinions and that's what you're getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 OMG... My colloquial terminology for 'Indigenous Arabian Water Pipe' apparently is a bad word. Heck Oliver's Oogling Karen's Ample Hips Whooka'd thunkit? I mean old men wearing Fez enjoying a cool smoke. I got a two-hoser, too! I would have never thought that would have come up as tagged by the censor-bot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 Easy there big fella. Drax was referring to post 8. You asked for opinions and that's what you're getting. Ron - I understand - that wasn't my post though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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