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zredbaron

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zredbaron last won the day on May 18

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About zredbaron

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  • Birthday 02/13/1980

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    zredbaron240
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    http://www.markhaag.com

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    Richland, WA
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    Autocross, racquetball, anything Z or car related, aviation, personal growth and inner peace.

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  1. 05.18.2018 Dyno Day Report 630am - 815am I arrive at my road testing location, and continue to prep for my dyno appt at 9am I continue to refine the performance of the short stack webers I achieve a near-constant 13.0 AFR from ~4000-7000 RPM Car is smooth as silk at the top of 4th gear, 120ish? I have known good jet settings for 38mm venturis with long stacks, and 40mm venturis with short and long stacks, and have swapped back to known good settings several time this week. Repeatable. 845am Unload car at dyno shop Car fires right up, I turn it off after driving it off trailer. Tech wants to get in the car and put it on the dyno. Against my better judgment, I allow a young tech to attempt to start my triple carbs (neither warm nor cold motor) 915am At this point I kicked the tech out of the car and I'm trying to start it. Flooded? Fouled plugs? I decide to refuel, allowing time for the flooded carbs to clear. Won't start 10am New NGK plugs installed Fires right up, I drive it onto dyno Tech has me accelerate slightly to set the wheels. I am already alarmed by dyno noises and vibrations, I am assured this is normal It's not like I've never dynoed before 1030am Car is NOT the same car that I've been tuning all week! Making jet changes are having OPPOSITE effects then what happens roadside! Example: changing main jets 10 up or down DOES NOTHING!? Example: changing air corrector jets now behave as if the main jet is being changed? Additionally and separately, my ignition is being screwy A few times, the rev limiter did not kick in AT ALL Several times, the car wouldn't accelerate on the dyno, but would simply hesitate and chill out and get groceries Several times, while getting groceries on the dyno, VTEC or something kicked in because the acceleration would suddently PULL VERY HARD. Pulls back to back did NOT have the same performance. We started to not trust the data, sometimes doing 3 pulls for every adjustment. WTF is going on? 1130am Despite that the rules of tuning are now unpredictable, despite that my known settings are now shit... I finally find a good AFR again, very near my 13.0 AFR that was attained roadside that morning Time to move to timing Dyno is scheduled for another customer at 2pm! At this point all I want is to capture data for the Weber short and long stacks 12pm I start messing with 1000RPM timing I get my triples idling very nicely with a screwdriver I start messing with 3000RPM timing Engine is hot, needs to cool 1230pm Tech announces he is going to lunch No other techs around 1pm Pulls resume I am less desensitized to the vibrations I continue to express concerns and I am told all is normal 115pm Eff this, I'm getting my car outta here I drive off the dyno and onto the street, vibes are insane, loud at 35mph Day is done 215pm Drop my car off at a general auto place to investigate on a lift They tighten the driveshaft and right CV axle (inner bolts) Evening I pushed myself so hard this week that I start shaking and aching and getting sick Straight to bed around 7pm Weekend Saturday - rest. I skip the first race the car can actually enter... because the driver can't go physically. Sunday - autocross. Car kicked my ass, in a good way. Couldn't get the rear to settle down, which was delightful. Not sure if I had "fun." Big losses this week. That's sad. Ignition My ignition was crippled by something that day. The hall effect sensor is supposed to negate interference? Haven't called Electromotive yet. Depressing. I will. My theory: the dyno's ignition inductance pickup was near my hall effect sensor's harness, where the sensor wire is less shielded for a few inches to allow the sensor and XDI harness to clip together. I suspect if this had been relocated, the issue would have cleared. (Some positions definitely made it worse!) Dyno Graphs The way the dyno loaded up (very delayed)... it was very hard to scientifically produce consistent dyno runs. You can see some really screwy dyno plots. The ignition pickup had a really hard time, clearly. I attempted to attain WOT by 3500 and 4000 RPM as the engine tune allowed. In most cases, if I rolled into WOT slowly, it worked out. If I rolled quickly, it would be a wasted dyno pull (delayed dyno loading). A few times I forgot I was supposed to achieve WOT (for consistent analysis of what the change did) and throttled the carbs through the reverb RPM range. Very interesting to look at the torque plots of the throttled runs! WOW! (Enter driver as a patch! Haha.) Summary Phudge. What the crap, even? I'm still going to mess with a few of the air horns for awhile. I'll still come back... not at this dyno. The staff, to me, was more interested in getting through their day than helping their customer accomplish anything. They dismissed my concerns about ignition and vibrations. Not helpful. Sigh... A not-quite what we want to hear video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk_MpV3F9Ys
  2. Thanks Jon. I was pretty much in shock all day on Friday. I couldn't believe what was happening as it unfolded. Unreal. I agree, I'd be a lot more comfortable if the inner bolts were also safety wired. rustler753, I'm running Stahl headers with 1 5/8" primaries, and 2.5" secondary collectors. The two 2.5" pipes are passed through a 20 degree merge collector, then expanded from 2.5" to 3" with 3" mandrel exhaust all the way back. Two straight through Magnaflow mufflers in series. I've been running 75F8 idle jets for the most part, with 70F8 and 80F8 also being used depending on the day and carb setup (venturis, horns, etc).
  3. The Weber short stacks made the most power by about 270 whp. I never swapped any parts. Frustrating day. Showed up with a singing car that refused to sing for the first hour, oddly, and ultimately broke on the dyno while tuning the timing for my initial baselines -- excessive vibrations above 35mph. Never even got a good initial baseline! 🙄 My new driveshaft was installed by a speed shop and my right rear CV axle was also removed and reinstalled in the offseason. They were found loose after I finally demanded to unstrap my Z, and two bolts on my bigger driveshaft lost their nuts today. So to speak. I'll attach media when I am able. I have my suspicions about the dyno itself, nothing but issues with ignition signal today (due to dyno? very odd day). The car was smooth as silk at the top of 4th on asphault... and on the dyno it not only shook itself apart but the ignition was so inconsistent I don't find tuning to be useful on their equipment and doubt I will return. Very cool shop though... just not for my car evidently? Weird. I'll revisit this sometime this summer -- I still need to digest the day. It simply didn't add up from the beginning. For now, I am going to bed and still not attending my first race of the season tomorrow. I've literally made myself sick today. It was all I could do to get the car in the trailer in and out for the 4th time today as a shop with a lift helped me confirm my vibration issues. For now. At least the motor remains stout and sings beautifully on road tests. 🍻 🎻
  4. Only the 47x50mm T3 stacks will be used today, sadly. Mounting issues, had to hack up the set that's by my best guess. (Tall ones wouldn't fit an airbox anyway.)
  5. Well, I may have a decent handle on tuning Webers… But in general automotive proficiency… I couldn't get the 40 mm to run due to user error. I'm not sure what happened Monday night, but on Wednesday night I had a spark plug wire disconnected and didn't notice it. How embarrassing! That's what I get for checking the plugs late at night. I have really awesome jet presets for both the 38 mm and 40 mm venturis. 40 mms like the short stacks so far! Better AFR plot, but perhaps less peak horse power. I've got about 2 1/2 hours of daylight for more testing this morning. Every minute I get done in preparation means more day that we get at the end of the day. More when I got it. Today is looking and feeling like it's going to be a solid day! Video below, while still tuning 40mms last night. 3rd gear. So far it behaves identically to the 36mm venturis in the 40 mm carburetor body, which makes complete sense. Gargly until the cam kicks in... I think the reverb is allowed to travel outside the carb body with wide open venturis. I remember seeing fuel mist in person at the engine dyno. I'll capture it. Cheers.... 🍻☕️
  6. Hey gang. I haven't had much time for road testing the 40mm venturis yet (let alone stacks). Still not driveable, so at present, the forecast is testing via 38mm venturis tomorrow unless I pull off a good tune tonight. I have main jets up to 245 now (!) and with 6 sets of emulsion tubes one would think a solid setup is within grasp. Attached is my tentative dyno flow chart: May 2018 Dyno R&D FlowChart.pdf It assumes unlimited time. I don't yet know if I'll be running 38mm venturis or 40mm venturis or both. At some point I will abandon broad data collection and proceed toward focused data collection. The results will navigate this flowchart, and so will the limited timeline. If half of those boxes have data at the end of the day I'd say that's a win. Any advice or thoughts here is always welcome. Ryan - The electromotive hall effect upgrade instructions are attached. The XDI 200 ($895) would meet/exceed my needs for carburetors, but if I'm going to rewire my ignition... I might as well rewire everything under the hood and integrate all of my fan controllers, etc. into one computer: the GT200 ($1,695!), which would also be forward-compatible with sequential fuel injection one day (should ITBs ever occur on the car). That's an $1,700 upgrade for a TPS at present. For now I'll save my cash and I'm buying the Electromotive loaner XDI unit from them, so I can get out there and race! I may have built a race motor (RIP, RIP...), but I'm a driver first and a builder/owner second. I'm already late to race season as it is!
  7. Also, I road tested the 40mm venturis last night... and they are not yet drivable or able to be dynoed. At first I was discouraged, but then I realized this might mean that they have more power potential than I realize. It must be tuned. With 40mm venturis installed, it was way lean. I was afraid to touch the pedal to get past the "iffy" airflow and into the WOT performance where it was happier (but not happy). In the end, my largest main jets (205) aren't remotely close to being big enough. Choking the Air Corrector down to 145s still wasn't enough for an AFR that didn't make me nervous as all heck. So... in my mind this means one or more of a few things: Loss of aux venturi signal The Weber book notes that jumping from 38mm to 40mm venturi will result in a loss of signal at the aux venturi. I haven't read much carburetor theory about the aux venturi, so I'm not fully sure how this impacts WOT. My impression is the aux venturi serves to assist mixtures at low RPMs and lesser throttle positions. My impression is this is a less desirable drivability issue, but a drag or road race engine would like it just fine! The main jets are just too damn small. More air needs more fuel, duh. More fuel means more power, duh. I would love this to be the fix! Emulsion tube experimentation is in order See aux venturi notes... it's my understanding tubes are for mixing at low RPMs, not WOT. I have 5 other tubes. "Ram" tubes / velocity stacks are now crucial That's the point of Friday, after all... but if I can't safely get on the throttle I have to test at the 38mm level. Cleaning up this increase of air may clean up the signal loss at the aux. venturi. Today I will order more main jets. I'll do more road testing as I'm able. Any experience with 40mm venturis out there?
  8. Thanks Ben! About the T3 stacks - I have both their 47mm and 49mm ID varieties. Do you know the ID of your setup? Since the (Weber) sleeves have an ID of 48mm, the T3 stacks are an exciting wild card to me, because I can also test with / without the inner (Weber) sleeve inserts that will be cut. When I have more time I'll post a table of the impressive list of combinations I will be able to play with. More than I will have time. Fun! Ryan - it's truly my pleasure to share. About the ignition upgrade - I will be calling their tech today. It's not an option for this week or maybe this summer... but I'd love to incorporate a throttle position sensor. I believe that means a TecS is a good option? Not sure. I owe the tech a call about the loaner unit anyway. Would allow software to map both throttle position (TPS) and manifold pressure (MAP). That'd be awesome to pair with carbs set up for WOT but retains driveability across a 5k+ RPM band. I think it can be done. Between fancy fuel, fancy ignition and fancy head work... I think one can have their cake and eat it too. But they might have to have fancy intake and exhaust setups! LOL Speaking of exhaust, I still haven't announced some of the other upgrades. The 3" mandrel exhaust now has two straight-through Magnaflow mufflers in series after the merge collector. The first is 14" and 1/2" thick(14x4), the second is 6" long and 3" thick (6x6). The sound is very balanced. The second muffler, since it is a different shape, attenuates a different sound frequency and it just-so-happened to work out the way I hoped: it didn't muffle the tough, but it did nip the high pitch resonance perfectly. I still prefer it raw -- just remove the exhaust after the merge collector. No hood and no air filters, windows down. Just open air horns and a merge collector. That's my favorite sound. One day maybe late this summer I'll take the car to a drag strip without any exhaust attached... one milestone at a time.
  9. Thanks guys. I'll try and have an IR gun on hand. I had a chance to road tune the 38mm venturis this weekend. It has better mid-throttle response than it has had in years. 190 main jets, F9 Emulsion tubes, 220 Air Correctors. I can actually floor it under 3000 RPM! (Still have to gradually roll-on the throttle, though.) This week's plan: Monday (tonight) Install 40mm venturis (with Weber long stacks) for dyno testing Road tune 40mm venturis, write down jets, air temp, etc. Get a feel for driveability of 40mm venturis with Weber long stacks (ready for baseline dyno data) Tuesday Order more main jets if 40mm venturis are thirsty (I have up to 205 main jets) Fine-tune the throttle linkage synch for dyno testing Wednesday Road test and confirm the jetting again, if the synch was adjusted. Swap to and road test the Weber short stacks, noting if the same jets can be used. Rehearse velocity stack swaps, organize parts, etc. Thursday Backup day for final road testing Stage trailer, fuel and parts Finalize R&D flowchart Friday, May 18 - Chassis Dyno @ 9am PST I'm allowing myself to feel a little excitement. Trying to allow more.
  10. I also omitted that I had two techs helping me the first day, a general mechanic and an electrician. My lithium battery didn't survive their techniques, despite me highlighting bold warnings from Braille (the battery manufacturer). I was arguing with experts in their back yard, and I've previously been burned by my ignorance / arrogance (having gone down similar roads in the past). This time, I was the expert. I had technology they didn't have an education on, and I was the one that read the manual. They were good guys, genuinely trying to help. Expensive battery, made to order, ships via ground only. Sometimes the story just hurts so damn much you don't want to say it out loud. Especially when you were right but allowed wrong to happen. Always go with your gut.
  11. Agreed! Simply stated, this dyno session is for data about stacks, so I and others can select appropriate parts for our application(s). (It is explicitly not a dyno session to dial-in "my" engine.) (Is it even mine? John Coffey's head and cam R&D, Jim Thompson's work, Joe Harlan's work, and "my" combination of go-fast parts that others invented or recommended.) I don't know if I will still be using the Electromotive loaner unit, my old unit or a new-to-me unit. So... for the purpose of venturi comparison, I will do a few pulls at the beginning of the day with the Weber long stacks and refine my timing knobs for the baseline setup. I don't anticipate revisiting timing, as I don't anticipate having much spare time. The XDI ignition doesn't have a TPS input, but I do have a MAP sensor installed. It's been hooked up for years. I don't notice much difference when it is unplugged (I do have a lot of cam overlap, after all), but then again I haven't unplugged it in years. It's worth a revisit. A waveform is a waveform. If the peak high and peak low is sufficient, then, depending on circuit design, a crude waveform will easily become a clean square wave. (This doesn't mean it sees a consistent frequency.) The integrated OPAMPs within the Hall Effect sensor do help clean up waveforms, but the tech seemed to think the later model likely worked due to the upgraded onboard signal logic. It does some intelligent filtering also. [Electromotive final analysis still to come.] This is a very painful and long story. I missed two race weekends, an engine dyno and my first ProSolo because I refused to "just put the mechanical pump back on." This is still quite abridged. Car wouldn't start. Autometer gauges didn't pass their startup test with key in IGN position. Unplugging a spark plug wire and connecting a spark tester (term?) to ground revealed the coils were firing, with crank at rest. Unplugging water pump immediately stopped the sparking. No water pump: gauges pass startup tests, car fires right up. Plugging water pump back in and unplugging mag sensor also stopped the sparking. Moving the mag sensor around the engine bay resumed sparking if mag sensor was within about 6" of either the pump or the damper (the damper is magnetic, therefore it builds up a field, also). Placing shielding between the sensor and the pump was effective with mag sensor in hand, but ineffective with mag sensor installed. (I spent a lot of time on shielding attempts, trying to MacGyver my way through the weekend.) The solid damper (BHJ?) truly exacerbated this field condition. Shielding attempts would delay the onset of when spark would occur. Depending on shielding, sparking would delay 10-90 seconds even. (With the 12A pump running.) I'm not an electrical engineer, but this is definitely indicative of a buildup of inductance, I reckon. (My theory: shielding is impossible. HAS to be solved by Hall effect / chip logic, etc. Why? The engine block is a big piece of iron electromagnet.... big magnets take more energy / time to build a field. Shielding slows it down but since pump is installed metal on metal to the engine... shielding can't help you.) Calling Electromotive resulted in "oh yeah, that's why we made the Hall Effect sensor, part no...." Part arrived. The instructions indicated those with "serial numbers less than..." were to call Electromotive. I called Electromotive. "You have to send us your unit and we can modify it to be compatible with a Hall Effect sensor." I send my unit to them, they send it back. Mod doesn't work. Mag sensor doesn't work anymore either. They overnight me a loaner unit. Doesn't work at first, but it was my fault this time - the jumper wasn't fully seated. (the later serial numbers allow Hall effect sensors by installing a jumper. earlier models like mine need to be opened up and hacked.) Sure is nice when stuff just works and your car just fires right up when it's supposed to! Thanks Leon! You've already been of influence. Speaking of engine temps... my engine keeps pretty consistent temps. It's running the 10qt oil pan from DRP and the aluminum radiator from Arizona Z with dual fans. On the road and at events (doesn't idle very long), the water runs at whatever temperature I set the thermostat. Dyno pulls with electric fans only is another story... I seem to recall it needing to cool down in Portland now that you mention it. EDIT - How does one monitor under hood temps? Such as the intake manifold and carburetor bodies. Ideas or experience? Heat gun on a few areas?
  12. Thanks Leon, good feedback. Your profile slogan is particularly on cue here. Hah! I've prepared ahead on the swapping parts routine, definitely changed my hardware and tools in the process. Jon M and Joe H can attest that I've learned the swapping parts lesson a couple of times now. Clearly didn't learn the first time. Feeling confident this go-around. Good call on the tire pressures! I likely would not have thought of that. I'll be sure and warm up the drivetrain as I arrive, too. I'll also take a log on temperatures as I am able. I'll print a table. Everything will be with an informed grain of salt; at least it's the same car on the same dyno, same day. Agreed, there will not be enough time. But, I can certainly say there are enough variables that I won't lack for options to follow hp/torque or data collection. I imagine my plan of attack will adapt as the day unfolds.
  13. Hey gang. The bad news: Surprise! Dyno dates postponed two weeks to May 18, 2018 due to unforeseen challenges. The short version is that I upgraded my mechanical water pump to an electric water pump, and the EMF (electromagnetic field) was passed through the damper and felt by the crank sensor 8 inches away. The ignition system would spark with the crank at rest and water pump running, so starting was impossible. The solution was to upgrade the magnetic pickup to a powered hall effect mag sensor, which doesn't get fooled by ambient signals as easily. The abridged long version is a two week saga with Electromotive (A++ field support!), in the end sending me two hall effect sensors and a jumper for the computer module that didn't work. I sent them my unit, they opened it up and upgraded the hardware to allow for hall effect sensors and sent it back to me, but it still didn't work. They ultimately sent me a loaner ignition module that fired right up. Evidently my early-model XDI had an onboard logic chip that was only a part of the early serial numbers of the XDI. This is actually my third Electromotive module, having owned the HPV-1 and HPV-X in the past. I'm very loyal to their technology and product, especially after their A++ service these two weeks! They may or may not have overnighted the loaner unit to me on a Saturday, and called me proactively on that weekend. Wow! (I mention this not to suggest others should expect the same level of service, but to remove any doubt as to the reliability of their products-- follow through in the field is how they ensure their technology is reliable. It "should" have been different and they wanted to figure out why! They did. Also: very, very few customers have the early unit I do.) Pics show green and white jumper attempts, the proper hall effect mag sensor, the new loaner XDI module, and the electric pump. The good news: I have SIX SETS of venturis, OH MY! My plan of attack, at Kaizenspeed's dyno, on 5/18/18: Ambitious, as always! Run 40mm venturis (chokes) for all runs When possible, run the same jets... and use the changes in A/F ratio as "apples to apples" O2 availability for combustion comparison. (As time allows, main jetting changes as well... allowing "apples to apples" HP comparison.) Insert sleeves Aftermarket air horns do not slide into the carburetor body. Sleeves are 1mm thick, which is a 2mm difference in ID. The carb body is 50mm OD, expecting the sleeve to be inserted. The Weber sleeves are 48mm ID The Pegasus airhorns are exactly 48mm ID The issue: Without sleeves... diameter goes from 48mm to 50mm (square edge!) and then 50mm back to 48mm (square edge!) Sleeves vs. no sleeves will likely matter. The R&D: My first two velocity stacks will be the Weber long and Weber short Whichever performs less well will be taken a machine shop down the road that morning and cut flush, retaining the sleeves and ditching the velocity stack. Machinist time is prescheduled, and I have a friend as a "runner." This will then be paired with all external aftermarket stacks, same dyno same day. As time allows, I will also compare with and without sleeve for a couple of stacks. Butt-dyno / driveability confirmation Top 2 or 3 also be road tested to confirm mid-throttle torque performance WOT isn't what I am after, in the end. Later this summer, at my engine builder's chassis dyno, timeframe TBD: Compare (top 2?) air horns inside an airbox (still working on my frankenbox, but making progress as I have commissioned some pieces that will be ready this week) Compare 38mm and 40mm venturis -- confirm theories about torque Possibly compare one last air horn design, a stubby shape, also inside the air box. My theories: Aftermarket stacks with sleeves will outperform aftermarket stacks without sleeves. Air horns with sufficient conical shapes ("ram tubes") will accelerate the air enough that "small" venturis/chokes will no longer be necessary to retain low RPM torque. (I have been running 38mm chokes for low RPM torque and drivability.) With different stacks, I expect to see various HP and torque gains across the entire RPM band. With the top stacks, I expect to see negligible sacrifice in torque and uncapped peak HP (possibly not confirmed until later, data TBD). Why am I doing this? Without HybridZ, I wouldn't have the car I have today. Without others having pioneered the way, WE wouldn't have the performance we enjoy today. Without open sharing, neither bullet point exists. Big thanks to the donor(s) so to date! If anyone has any advice, thoughts, experience or requests... please speak up!
  14. zredbaron

    Questions about Auto-X

    I've no doubt you're spot-on! Care to elaborate?
  15. zredbaron

    Questions about Auto-X

    I can also add that once performance driving is tasted in an environment where it is safe to go beyond the traction envelope and spin out without harm.... you'll see the street never could have delivered the goods. "Adulthood" is a different pursuit entirely. ;) [Insert Peter Pan reference.]
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