BRAAP

Boy oh boy… It sounds like you have a LONG way to go in understanding what is taking place in the combustion chamber of turbonic power plant. Uh, well at ANY and ALL temps the engine CAN and WILL detonate, period! Even a dead cold engine, say at 32 degrees, (0 celsius), can and will detonate. Cylinder head temp is in NO way ANY indication of knock, nor will it warn of that. Of course, the higher the engine temp, the greater the possibility. There are WAY too many other factors that cause detonation. As for detecting the onset of detonation, your ears are a FAR better indicator than the your engine temp gauge and even then, unheard detonation will destroy an engine. Don’t trust your ears, and do NOT use your temp gauge for that purpose.

As for THE fastest/quickest Hybrid Z, I have to go with Zgad on this one. Here is Zgads signature. 8.915 @ 153 MPH.. DANG BOUY.. Thats gettin it done.. In Solo jockey speak, Zgad holds TToD honors. It would be nice to see fastest/quickest by category of power plant, i.e. L-series, RB, SBC, Turboshaft, SBF, BBC, GNx, Briggs&Stratton, Rotary, Cox, Mopar, and by number of cylinders, 1 cyl 4 cyl, 6 cyl, 8 cyl, 9 cyl, 10 cyl, 12 cyl,

Fella’s, I was just perusing the ’90-’96 Tech section at Z-car.com and ran across this thread ”windshield juice comes out…” http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=3&i=384920&t=384920

Yeah, I had one of those moments a couple weekends ago with the Z-32.. How about this… The worlds only 1990 260ZX! L-26 in the engine bay of a Z-32, Smog SU/s and all… Lets just say, the L-series doesn’t fit in the Z-32 engine bay. Oil pan sump, height of the engine at the front, etc… I guess I’ll just have to swap in a V-8 instead... Hmmm... sooo which V-8?...

Congratulations. Please keep us informed…

Some more SHO tidbits... All other Taurus cars are affectionately referred to as the SLO. For those interested, here are some sources for performance SHO goodies and services.. The SHO-SHOP, (nationally renowned SHO tuners) http://www.shoshop.com/ Performance Plus, (Late model Fords and SHO)http://www.performance-plus.com/sho/sho.htm SHO-Bros Garage, (specialty SHO performance parts) http://www.shobrosgarage.com/ SHO-NUT Performance, (specialty SHO performance parts)http://www.shonutperformance.com/ Ford Performance Specialists (custom SHO engine builds) http://www.fordspecialists.com/partsandservices/shomotors.html Cincinnati SHO, (specialty SHO parts shop)http://www.cincysho.com/Taurus_SHO/Ford_SHO_Catalog/performance.htm NorthEast SHO http://www.nesho.com/ Excellent source of SHO tech info.. SHO-times http://www.shotimes.com/php-bin/index.php

Yes, the intake manifold can be flipped end for end. Below are a couple of pics of the plenum flipped as installed in a Healey. From what I remember, there is some massaging, carving, grinding, that needs to be done for that to happen and that also raises the plenum a little bit as well, or something to that affect. Hybrid member SHO-Z is the man to talk to about flipping the intake plenum. Personally, I prefer the inlet at the rear of the engine for ease of induction plumbing, and of course I like to listen to the induction at WOT, so I was not planning to flip the intake around.

I started an S-30 SHO swap back in ’04, then mothballed the project, then engine was sold, etc etc etc, (typical ran out of everything story). The SHO swaps have been done and there is a member by the name of SHO-Z on this forum, (apparently he has found this thread), that is very well versed in the SHO power plant and is a wealth of info, (thank you SHO-Z for all your time and insight during that time) Any how, got so far as the initial engine test fitting and it was looking quite promising. I was REALLY liking the idea of having the throttle body in the cowl using the “cowl” as my cold air intake, not too mention the driver and passenger would get to hear that symphony of intake snakes trumpeting from under the dash. For those not wanting that sweet induction noise flooding the interior, swapping the intake manifold around is also an option. Any how, here are few shots of the test fit before the project was scrapped. Here are two threads with the details of the initial test fit install and these threads also have links to other successful SHO swaps as well.. GREAT info in those links for anyone interested in SHO conversions.. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=94815 http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=93468

Where does the “6 times” figure come from? Is that some sort of general standard or is that a known particular value for the VG30DE engine family? I’ve never heard that one before….

WOW! I’m not going to dispute your testing or the equipment used, (btw, nice car Marc). I’m not going to say that your measurements are wrong or going to dispute this any more publicly, though I am going to voice my “opinion” on this one last time as I am still not seeing this, especially the gross difference between the two, and that gross difference being opposite of what seems logical to me, especially the VG30DETT weighing close to twice that of an L-series. Something just doesn’t seem right there, but that is what you measured, soo… I wont argue my point any further. If everyone else “likes” those numbers and wants to believe them, great, (I for one would LOVE for those number to be true for several reasons), but personally, that big of a weight gap with the knowledge I have of the these two engines… Until I measure this for myself, I’m holding on to the theory that VH45DE long block being heavier that the VG30DE long block. Marc has posted some hard to dispute proof. When I do get the scales, I will post my weighing results with pics and all the details of what was included, not included, with and without various components, and I hope that I am wrong in my theory and that my results will only back up what you guys are claiming and have weighed yourselves. Just for giggles, doesn’t a Big Block Chevy with Iron heads weigh around 600 lbs? If that is case, then a N/A Big Block vs. a comparable HP boosted obese V-6 with no substantial weight penalty and easier maintenance sounds like a win win to me.. Then just add 10lbs of boost to that 454!! YEE HAAA… Till I weigh them myself, BRAAP… … . .. OUT!

The upper plenum is not a cake walk to remove, you’ll agree with that right? I started the process of removing the upper plenum myself and about an hour into it, promptly muttered a few colorful metaphors and decided it would just be easier to perform a V-8 conversion on the car and the gains would much greater. (no kidding!, the car IS getting a V-8 in the near future, undecided on whether it will be the VH45DE out of my totaled Q-45 or my super charged SBC 350 on the engine stand. We are NO stranger to V-8 conversions around here). Maybe I’m just so spoiled with the L-series. Even the “all original” late L-28 intake is sort of a pain to remove with the heat shields etc, but NOTHING like trying to remove the upper plenum of the VG30DE in the engine bay. I should’ve been more clear in what I was trying to convey, sorry about that. My point was if valve cover gaskets, AND injectors, AND EGR, AND rear main seal, AND water hoses under the plenum, AND any of the other normal issues that are typical on these cars needs tending to, it is easier to just pull the engine and deal with all those issues at once than to spend more time and money just pulling the intake plenum, tranny, etc. My source for that info comes from a specialty Z-32 shop, (owner of that shop is a member here on Hybrid), that the Nissan dealer sends all their Z-32’s to, for scheduled and unscheduled maintenance. Their head tech can pull the engine in approx one hour, where as the intake plenum is a few hour project. Most of the time, the Z-32 they get in, typically need ALL of those issues dealt with, so it is generally more cost effective to just pull the engine and take care of everything at once. I’m sure if I misstated anything, he will set the record straight.

Also, Oregon doesn’t have any sales tax, WA does, which is supposed to offset the state income tax, so depending on your spending habits, you may want to research that a little first. I don’t know about WA emissions and registration laws, but here in Oregon, in the Portland metro area, you have to pass a tail pipe emissions to register your car. You only have to do this twice a year and registering your car for 2 years is only $52. Now for the really good news. Outside of the greater Portland Metro area here in Oregon, say like out here in Sandy where we live, (between Portland and Mt Hood, 30 minutes from Vancouver), there is no DEQ or emissions testing for your vehicles, just $52 every two years to register our cars, no matter what engine is under the hood, no matter how much of a gross polluter it is. For some Hybrid Z owners, that alone can offset any and all state income tax we pay, which I prefer over sales tax any day.

Ok. I’m really glad you are keeping a good attitude over all this, stubbornness and all, For starters, ALL the VH45DE engines, ’90-’96, are chain drive, none were belt drive. (Even the VK45DE is chain drive, was introduced in 2002 and is based on the same architecture as the VQ engine family). My ’96 VH45DE is chain drive. Wherever you got that info stating that the VH45DE came with belt driven cams at any point in its production run is a bad source. Just go back and look at that picture of the VH45DE Timing CHAIN arrangement from the service manual I posted previously. That is from the ’96 service manual. FWIW, to convert a VH45DE to belt drive would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Not only is it going to require extreme amounts of custom fabrication to seal up the engine, add belt idlers, etc, but the only real gain will be slightly lighter weight. The Chains are ZERO maintenance, and due to the independent cylinder bank cam drive design, the region between the upper portion of the valley between the cylinder heads is clear, i.e. no chain or belt running across the valley between the two heads, (not that I have been eyeballing that specifically to bolt on an Eaton M-112 Super charger in a low profile position or anything…) As for the weights of the heads, yes the VG30DE heads are heavy pigs, now doubt. ALL twin cam 4 valve heads are heavy pigs no matter who manufactured them, i.e. Honda, Nissan Toyota, Ford, BMW, etc… Now trust me on this, the VH45DE heads are noticeably heavier than the VG30DE heads! I have packed both around the machine shop. Just curious, how are you planning to get 380 HP from the VH45DE for less money than the LS-1? The VH45DE is rated at 278 crank HP. My ’96 Q-45 put down 230-240 to the wheels at a dyno day last, year. (If I can only find that dyno sheet to get the exact number). Any how, I do know that 312 crank HP from the VH45DE is doable with bolt ons, (Stillen stuff), and I’d venture to guess that 320 crank HP is also doable N/A. I honestly don’t see how 380 HP from the VH45DE can be one N/A, unless you spend LOTS of money. It will take some form of power adder like super charger, Turbo or N2O to get 380+ HP from the VH45DE. I am pretty sure you are referring to the VK45DE. The VK45DE came with 340 HP stock, so 380 HP N/A from the VK45DE sounds totally realistic. As for being cheaper than the LS-1? Hmm. Depends on your source for the engines I guess, though I would bet that a used VK45DE can be picked up for a littel less than a used LS-1. Now if I can just sell a few parts off my ’96 Q-45, i.e., doors, interior, etc, I will use that money to purchase a nice digital crane scale and will weigh all the engines we have, and other various heavy items as well. Especially my VH45DE a VG30DE, VG30DETT, VG30E, L-28, LS-1, traditional SBC, etc…

Hmm.. my guess is 1984…

The NOID that “momsZ” is talking about is an ABSOLUTE verification tool. It not only verifies power, (voltage AND current), to the injectors but also the fact that the injector is getting the pulse signal, i.e. power AND ground. It essentially takes the place of the injector itself and gives you a visual indication of what the injector is seeing from the ECU and what it should be doing. Ok. So you are sure absolutely that the injectors are NOT getting their pulse and there is fuel pressure in the fuel rail? (At least 15PSI and the engine will run if the injectors are firing).. 1) While cranking, does the tach move, jiggle or do anything at all? It should at least slightly bounce as the engine is cranking indicating cranking speed. That is your first indication that the ECU is getting the RPM trigger from the ECU. If the ECU doesn’t know the engine is cranking, it wont trigger the injectors. (I do recall you saying that the spark plugs are firing as the engine will light off on starter fluid. Then the ECU should be getting this signal). 2) You fuel pump continually runs. Hmm.. sounds like the EFI relay has issues, and that very well could also be the reason the ECU is not triggering the injectors, if that indeed is the case. 3) Do you have a ’77 wiring diagram? If so, trace out the EFI power supply and grounds on the diagram. Verify that the connections at the ECU connector are getting the power and are grounded. You can by pass the EFI relay/s to run the engine which will let you know if it is a relay issue or ECU issue. As noted before, it is rare when and ECU goes bad. Usually connections and the relay are the most common electrical issues.

Well, I guess it could work. Off the top of my head, the only concerns that come up are weight and mounting bracket/s. FWIW, You could always just use a pusher type cooling fan. Sure, it’s not as efficient, but if you if your cooling system is already more than adequate and the pusher fan is more than adequate, a little “cooling fan efficiency” loss should be of no consequence, especially if you perform some radiator core support hole plugging etc to improve air flow to and through the radiator itself. I have seen pics where some one used computer fans to exhaust air from the engine bay. They mounted the fans on the rear portion of the front fenders, under the battery and brake master cylinder. I have no idea what effects that may have on the air flow through the radiator, and or/ around the nose of the car, just though I’d throw it out there..

Generally, the ECU on these cars is not the problem, they are for the most part bullet proof. 99% of the time, most issues relating to starting, driving etc is just a bad electrical connection somewhere, or a vacuum leaks due to the old cracked rubber intake boots, hoses, etc. The most common culprit for electrical connections issues are the coolant temp sensor connections, (there are two of them near the thermostat housing), and the main power wire for the ECU at the battery has a bad habit of corrosion, especially with the age of these cars now. AT this point, without any more specific info on your exact issue, you should be looking at electrical connections, not the ECU. Keep us posted, Paul

There are a lot of “guest” users, i.e. not registered, or at least not logged in, approx 80% of the current viewers at this time. Cool. We’ve always known that Hybrid is THE hot car forum…

Too funny. Brings back memories… Back in the late ‘80’s early 90’s, in our group of Z car nuts were 4 primer flat black Z cars, and they all had gloss black BRE stripes down the fenders.. . LOL.. Those were the days…

Are the tires "brand new"? Tread block squirm coud be a factor. Brand new tires are always VERY squirmy.

Ok fellas. The plot thickens… In another thread on this forum, it was posted that the VG30DETT weighs in at 420 lbs! (as I pick myself up off the floor while putting my spleen back in my abdomen from splitting my sides in laughter). I’m thinking about that 100 lbs lighter VH45DE weighing only 320lbs … (now "flopping" on floor in laughter, intestines slinging about, … ) http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117938&page=2 In all seriousness. I have been researching crane scales. I have found a few digital crane scales with capacities in the 1000-2500 lbs range with resolutions between .1 and .5 lbs, (between one tenth and one half pound). The cost is between $385 and $600. I’m having a hard time justifying that price just for this thread, though we could use that scale to also weigh the LS-1, traditional SBC, Datsun L-6, T-56 and Datsun 4 spd and 5 spd trans, which we do currently have in the shop. We could weigh other power plants that the locals would be willing to bring over, I think one of your friends has a VQ35DE on his shop floor.. Hmmm.. and the LS-x vs traditional SBC weight debate is still waging …

Ah, the ole “Telly Savalas” Radials… I remember running those quite often in my youth. For some reason, they aren’t real complaint in standing wate…

Amen, brother... As for your editing reason.. YEUP! they are either misquoting or NOT reading our posts entirely! I have been dealing with that same crap in another thread as of late..

Okie Dokie. I'll give you guys 20'lbs for the block, and 1/4 more weight for the heads instead of the 1/3. I still say the VH45DE is heavier.. Good one...

You are absolutely correct. The aluminum block will not be 3 times thicker to make up for lack of strength, (I don't think I eluded to that in my previous two posts?). What I was trying to say over and over and over and will say AGAIN, it will be least 1 ½ to 2 times thicker in most areas of the block. The weight savings of an aluminum block are real and not in question here and never have been in question. WHAT I have been saying is that weight savings is NOT as substantial as what the general public initially thinks when they think of aluminum blocks vs iron blocks! (How many more ways do I have to describe this?) Again, the iron block is a shorter V-6 block. The aluminum block is a LONGER V-8 block. By sheer volume of material in the V-8 block it should be heavier, but it is a lighter material, that should offset the weight difference, or if there is a difference in weight of the blocks alone, either way, do you guys really think that the there will be 100+ lbs or even 50+ lbs difference in the just the bare blocks alone? If so, you have to start sharing the drugs you are using because they are really good… Ok, IF just the bare aluminum VH block is lighter than the bare VG iron block, and for arguments sake, lets say the longer larger VH45DE block is 20 lbs lighter! (I strongly doubt it is even close to that), NONE of you guys have explained HOW or WHY adding two larger pistons, two more con rods, a longer crankshaft, longer and heavier heads with all the goodies that go into feeding those 2 extra cylinders, 2 separate timing chains, cast timing covers, could conceivably be lighter? Think about it guys. How can 8 pistons, 8 rods, 1/3 longer crankshaft, 1/3 longer/heavier heads, etc be lighter than 6 smaller pistons, 6 rods, a shorter crank, lighter heads, lighter single timing belt with stamped tin and plastic timing cover? Every one seems stuck on that aluminum block band wagon, but NO one has shown how all these extra parts that the VH45DE is packing around could possibly help keep that aluminum block weight savings from being canceled out or show how those EXTRA parts are helping make that bigger engine even lighter yet? C'mon guys, I'm giving you 20lbs that I truly don't believe are even there... Sorry Mack, As for the SBF vs L-6, that is apples and oranges. Even the SBC with aluminum heads and other lightweight goodies can be lighter than the L-6. The inline 6 cylinder vs a V-engine is and apple to orange comparison as by design they are way different animals. This a multi valve 4 cam V-6 vs multi valve 4 cam V-8 comparison which are very similar in design and architecture.