Bob_H

Mike, That one is hard to pin down. You are talking about doing a swap that Noone has succesfully done in the US, and I know of one in Aus.,(the Zoom car). Not saying it can't be done, for with enough money and brains, you can put anything in a Z. You said you really know the SR motors. And as of now, I know of one Z that has a SR motor in it. And that is second hand knowledge from David K. But between the 1jz and the SR20? Tough call. The SR20 obviously weighs less and a 240Z you end up buying,(factor in about 1500-2k for a good shell), will weigh in about 2100-2200 lbs. If you were to put 300 to the wheels, that is supercar territory. You know the prices of the SR motors and tranny's,(we'll say you can find one in good shape with lower miles for 2k total). If you are doing the fabrication with your dad, then that cuts down some cost, but we'll again say 3k. So 2k car, 2k motor, 4k fabrication/parts plus ~1k misc. 9k. Stick with the U-joints for now and upgrade the brakes in the rear at a min, $6-800. Fronts, $6-800. New rims and tires, $1500. Upgrade suspension bushings to urathane, a few hundred. A good alignment and you are ready to go. looks like it will work with either the SR or the 1jz. The advantage of the SR is you know it. The advantage of the 1jz is well, I guess it is a 6 cyl and might have more "headroom". Maybe. But it will weigh more and likely be a more involved swap. You want me to throw more in the pot? Remember when 92awdgsx was talking about the 4g motors? 2.4L stroker with 400+ hp coupled to either a Supra Tranny or something similar. That would be different and the parts are readily available, and maybe cheaper. food for thought. as long as you outline a realistic budget and stick to it, you should be fine no matter which engine you choose. Always, always budget in at least 10% fudge, and a better figure is 15-20%. So if your budget calls for $9000, plan on at least 10k, more like 10.5-11k. Enjoy. Bob

got it. The end tanks threw me off but I knew the size was right. -Bob

Mike, You change your mind more than a woman in a clothing store. First, we have already established that your budget is between 6k and 10k. Actually, the 10k was the max and meant doing nothing else. -Lets say you get lucky, and can find a complete,(read that again, complete), RB26dett and RB25 RWD tranny for 5k. First, you would be lucky, but lets go on that premise. -Next you need an intercooler. $800. -Upgraded radiator, $300 min for a good aluminum one. -Paying someone to custom fab the motor and tranny mounts. $500+. Trust me on this one I am in the process right now. -Wiring it up to make it work....depends on your skill. Based on the questions you have asked, I would put you in the pay someone else to do it category,(meaning you don't have the knowledge level,(notice I said level, not blanket statement on your knowledge) to read schematics, run tons of wires and troubleshoot on your own - the last part being the most important). $500-1000. -Fuel pump plus plumbing - $350-500 -Fabricated Exhaust, min of $250. You have just maxed your budget and you don't even have dyno time, upgraded brake system, wheels/tires, rear diff, etc.. Knowing what you have budgeted, and what your stated goals,(I will ignore the desire for 500 hp and 11 second time slips). I will re-iterate what I said earlier, and that Scottie and others backed up. Build a 300-350 hp car first. Then upgrade the car,(and your driving skills for that car), then shoot for more power. 350 at the wheels in a early Z will be mid 12's easy. Faster than anything you have owned. In the process of building up your Turbo L6, you will learn a great deal about what makes a turbo work on a L6. And there are lots of folks here who have built 300-400 hp L6 turbos so you can use their recipies. It usually entails the following: -Upgraded turbo,(can stay with stock manifold - and likely buy someones who is upgrading to a custom tubular one) -Custom intercooler -Upgraded fuel pump and lines -Upgraded fuel injectors -some throttle body that is larger -some form of aftermarket engine management like SDS -custom down pipe and exhaust -aftermarket turbo cam of some kind. That's it. You will get between 300 and 350 hp at the wheels with that combo and it will be faster than your AWD wonder that wouldn't run correctly. The RB swap is very involved, and will run at a minimum 10k, more like 15k. There are 4 of us talking right now via an e-mail list and all of our budgets are in that range. It is clear to me you have not sat down and written a full budget for this project. Include all the mickey mouse crap like hoses, rear CV upgrade, brakes, tires, etc.. You already have a L28. It will be much cheaper to take a baby step to 300 some odd hp and learn the car in that stage. At that point, you will know better what you want from the Z, will know how it drives, and if you want to stay with the L6 or move up to something more crazy. Yes the RB has more "headroom" but you aren't going to use it for some time. I know I shoot you down at every corner, but I was esp. concerned when I saw the "I'm ready to buy it today" post on the SR20. You wanted to jump in head first to shallow water with a motor you knew nothing about,(refering to going straight to aftermarket cams when the stock cams can support 400+ hp). There is a ton of info here on the L6 and after reading your posts for the last month, I think it is the best fit for you. Both for your budget and for your goals. -Bob

I just saw this so let me clarify. First, yes I said it would cost more to get high hp from the L6. However, that does not include the original purchase price of the motor! So in the end, you may be equal in outlay of money between the two,(L6 vs RB26). Assuming you could find a free RB26,(yea right), you would have to spend about 2k to get it up around 450+ hp. Maybe not even that much, but I am including downpipe, intercooler, and such. Taking a free L6, the same power would cost between 4 and 6 thousand. But you have that minor part where the RB costs quite a bit by itself. Hence the recommendation for the SR20. But it is not as reliable above 350 hp, even if the power does come very easily. Enjoy, Bob

Mike, Since you seem to have decided on the RB26dett, I have a few questions,(since I am doing this swap myself, engine just came in). First, have you really laid out your budget? It will cost you at least $10k to put that motor in your car. 6k for the motor and tranny alone, if your lucky, 5k. Will this be a drag race only car? That is the ONLY situation where you would want the smallest possible intercooler on a turbocharged motor. Otherwise you want to go as big as you can, with deference to pressure drop etc.. That one pictured I think was a stock GT-R intercooler. I would say that is the smallest you want. When given a choice, go for short tubes over a wide lengths vs long tubes over a small width. (think vertical tubes vs horizontal tubes). Most of your heat transfer is in the first few inches anyway. -Bob

I'm nearly 100% sure there were never steel drums on a Z. I have combed through a all Z junkyard, with nearly all early model Z's, 100+, and thre was not a steel drum in sight, inlcuding a tractor trailer full of suspension parts from 70-78 z's. Several of mine I was sure were steel until I scraped into them. Aluminum that was tarnished a bit looked just like steel to me. The fins are the tell tale. Ok, got it though, all 510 drums were steel, but we don't know if any other drums will fit,(and I would be willing to bet if they are steel, and are on another car, they are the same part number as the 510). -Bob

Thanks guys. Ok, are there steel drums that have cooling fins, possibly on another car? -Bob

I am trying to verify that the 510 drums, which are a direct fit on the Z are steel vice the aluminum of the Z's. If they are not, which model Datsun had steel drums that will work on the Z? -Bob

Mike, This is the engine forum. You will get much better answers if you post it in the right forum, in this case, Brakes, wheels, suspension and Chassis -Bob

Go ask these questions in the turbo forum. you will find much better answers there. and shoot for 350-400 hp first, then bump it up after you have the chassis where it can handle the power.(brakes, subframes, cage, etc..) -Bob

Well my info on Link is somewhat minimal, and I just threw it in there to add another unit. The PRS-8 is very capable, esp. considering the price. (that is the perfect power one). I looked very heavily into the AEM and PRS-8 as well as the Link, downloading software for all three, talking to users, playing with the programs, etc... I didn't play with the Link as much though and found few who could give me feedback on the fully custom system. And I think the stock pistons/rods on the RB are good up through about 600 hp, most certainly not 450. If I remember correctly, I see stock blocks going up to about mid 500's at the wheels. Where you can get a stock 2jz block higher than that,(and they only cost $1900 when they break!). Of course it all comes down to engine management to properly manage that power w/o breaking stuff. Mike, the SR20 might be cheaper to get the hp from, but you need to factor in the cost of the SR motor, which is about 2-3k depending on which one you start with. For the "different" factor, the SR-20 or a RB in the Z certainly fit that. My guess on a budget for a SR-20 in the Z would be as follows: -aluminum radiator: $2-300 -custom intercooler $5-900 -SR motor $2-3000(for one in good shape with tranny) -Fuel system upgrade -$500(fuel pump, filters, lines, possibly new tank). -Engine management,(AEM as you asked for) -$2k with harness -Custom downpipe and exhaust $500 -Intake pipe work, misc. for engine related, fabrication for mounts/engine and tranny: $1k(this is from experience) -Upgraded turbo: $800(this can vary) -Upgraded injectors: $2-500 -Custom turbo header: $800-1000+ -Custom driveshaft: $250 minimum And I am sure there are a few things I am missing but you get the idea, close to 10k. If you start with the L6, and go full forged internals, balanced, etc.. You can likely complete the short block for $2k,(might as well go stroker) plus about $1500 for good head work from someone like Sunbelt with a cam. The header is about $800-1000, the turbo is about $1000 for the power you want, intercooler the same, T5 tranny if you don't already have it, $~3-400, radiator, piping, engine management, tuning, etc... So you might come in cheaper, but it will be harder to get the big numbers power wise. So cheaper, but harder... -Bob

Umm, Roll centers are not something you install. I think you are confusing it with Sway bars or similar. A roll center is not something you can touch, but rather a point defined by the suspension design. It is a point in space. -Bob

I was the one looking seriously into transplanting the AWD setup from a R-33 skyline. Don't even bother. First, it is possible to physically transfer the AWD setup and graft the suspension. A compentent fabrication shop can make that happen. However, the Skyline has what is called the ATTESSA system to control the clutches to send power to the front wheels,(it does not work like a typical 4wd setup, for the front recieves no power until the rears start slipping, then the ATTESSA system starts to engage the clutches,(3 or 4), to start sending power to the front wheels, up to an even 50-50 split). There are several ATTESSA sensors throughout the Skyline GT-R, and it also takes info from the stock computer. So it is not an easy fix, and the sensors are located in various parts of the car, and are calibrated for that location,(refering to G-sensors, etc..). Plus the wheel sensors. The next stop in the job is that the manuals are only written in Japanese. So you will have a heck of a time deciphering the electrical schematics to determine which wire goes where, assuming you could get all the sensors mounted properly. Now there is a second options, but it is very expensive, and is only for drag racing. HKS or one of the Japanese companies sells a kit that allows you to pump a lever,(like a hand brake), to manually engage the clutches. That is what the 240 in the magazine article has. Notice the big silver handle? You also need to eliminate the 4 wheel steering, or HICAS in the rear,(fairly straight forward). Bottom line? If you are going to transplant the RB26dett, go with the RB25 RWD transmission and don't worry about AWD. There is a very good reason there are only 2 or 3 of them in the world... -Bob

That is a beautiful article. You have no idea how often I have to explain why they really can't get "400hp" or why they really don't want that kind power even if they had the money........(of course still wanting it to be "streetable" and their daily driver...) -Bob

Mike, Read my response about 500 hp,(much less 500 RWHP), and costs, as well as getting it with the L6,(more important for you is the getting it with the L6). RB or SR20 Breaking parts and the cost to get their will be significant barriers for 500rwhp. You can bump up to 350 rwhp very quickly. high 300's are a little harder. Anything over 400 rwhp in a L6 motors is big bucks and few have done it. You have driven other peoples cars, but you have never owned a 12 second or faster car. Trust all of us when we say start with the 350 rwhp car and you will be amazed at the performance in the lightweight Z. That is a mid 12 second car. Your money is much better spent getting it running well than getting it running so you can't drive it except on the track with $5-10 a gallon 110 octane race gas. Be realistic to yourself. No, just because Honda's are making that much power DOES NOT mean the L28ET can. You are talking about a cross-flow head with 4 valves per cylinder vs. our 2 valve per cylinder non-cross flow head. It is significantly more difficult to get that kinda power from the L6, even with .8L+ more displacement. Take a look at the RB26 and how much eaiser both it and the RB25 can produce big number horsepower vs a L28. And based on what you are saying about the AEM system, I think you want it because others seem to think it will be the **** when it hits the streets. The reality is that market,(the stand alone computers), is exploding and competition is fierce right now. That is good for us the consumers. Groups like PerfectPower, and Link are offering the same, if not more than the AEM, and often for cheaper. I don't expect Motec's to stay up around $4k for much longer. They will still demand a premium over other systems, but expect the prices to drop over the next few years. But read my comments in that thread and shoot lower than you are right now for your first real "super-performance" car. -Bob

Let me break this down. We have now established that you know what a 12 second car is like, and why you want a low 11 sec car. The two I can point to are Scottie,(granted a Buick V6), and James,(240z turbo). But you said: and and I'm going to tell you flat out. You can't do it for less than $5k. $10k is a much more realistic figure, not matter which engine. The only way to get close to that budget is to start with your current L6. But getting that kinda power from the L6 is tough and I know of three who have done it. The first would be Electromotives effort in GTU racing in the early 80's. The second would be James and his twin turbo wonder. The third would be JeffP. Both James and Jeff have strokers... And I personally know another turbo with a size block that was pushing 410hp at the wheels. As far as which motor will most easily support that kinda power? No contest, the RB26dett. But the absolute minimum you can get into one of those with a RB25 RWD tranny is about $5-6k. You can get up to about 450 hp on the stock turbo's and bigger injectors, then you need to upgrade the turbo's. But also to run low 11's on a 240Z you have to seriously consider all the parts that break well before 400 hp when launching properly. A CV setup in the rear will be almost mandatory, as well as upgraded axles. With James' first itteration,(before the TT), he ran 12's at over 120. And he was braking things. We'll share, but your goals are basicly impossible given what you said above. Your budget is the single biggest show stopper. You can get into the 12's cheaply. But sub 12's costs more than your budget, esp. when dealing with the non-crossflow head of the L6. -Bob

Uh, as it is said in nearly every other thread, we need much much more info. Next, come back telling us what you searched in the archives for. First, and most importantly, what do you want 500 hp for and how did you arrive at 500hp? Second, and almost as equally important, what is your budget for said motor? And I will be the first of a long line of people to tell you that their is no such thing as an economical 500hp. Maybe an economical 300hp.... -Bob

Jamie, First, do a through search of this forum. Many are in the same bucket as you. I'll be nice though and answer your questions since some are not easy to find in the search engine. For a well tuned 2.4L vs a well tuned 2.8L both with SU's, you are talking about 20 some odd hp difference between the two at the wheels, + or - a little. But more torque. Bang for the buck ought to be obvious. F54 L28 with SU's. I say sell your E-31 head,(or the whole L24 motor and buy a N-42 head. It requires no mods, yields good compression on the flat top pistons of the F54 block, and will be a great start for your "budget" warrior. The F54 block, N42 head, stock exhaust manifold, custom 2.5 inch exhaust from the manifold, stock SU's, and possibly some SM needles in the carbs. You'll be very very happy with the result. That combo will yield mid 14 second 1/4 mi times and will be a blast to drive for very minimal investment. -Bob

You can count on your one hand the number of folks who didn't go big V8's that are running low 11's high 10's in a Z. And you are seriously kidding yourself about not spending $5k on the engine. It just won't happen. And you still haven't told us how much you have set aside for this project. Until you do, you are just pissing in the wind. I could give you a "formula" for success,(worth what you paid), but there is no guarantee it will work. First, you tell me what is the single biggest detriment to Z's getting into the low 11's, high 10's? If you can't answer that, I question why you want to do this? And next, I'll ask you the same thing I asked ON3GO, have you ever driven a 12 second car? What is the fastest car YOU have driven? Not ridden in, and G-Tech numbers don't count. I realize I am being harsh, but you are providing scant details on why you want this, and exactly how much you plan on spending. The exact budget is crucial for the kinda power you want. If you were shooting for 300's at the wheels, that is a whole different ballgame. 500hp from just about any motor available will cost you at least $5k. I challenge you to show me a cheaper route, you'll find it is tough to break over 400-450 hp. Remember, everyone want's to go low 11's. The reality is most have no idea what it is like to drive a car that can out accelerate a McLaren F1. They are just shooting for that because it sounds cool. I am trying to challenge you to provide me with any reasons to think you aren't just planning on this because it sounds cool. How fast is your Z currently? Do you go to the track on a regular basis? Have you ever been to the track? Is this going to be a street racer? (Hint, I won't offer you squat if it is). Road racer? Daily driver? All those are huge factors in how you get to the end result. And 500hp will cost at least $5k total in the three motors you are asking about,(SR, RB and L6). Period. -Bob

Mike, Good reasons, and thanks for the clarification on the budget. With 10k in mind as a max, perferably 6-7k, I think the posts I linked again,(which you are aware of), give you a good starting point to plan. Anything we post here will just be a repeat of those. To recap: -Aftermarket EMS, SDS or Perfectpower.com and their PRS-4 or 8 systems,(very cheap for what you get, I think the best deal available for what it does). -Upgraded Turbo, several options, I'm not going to go there. -Cylinder head re-work, I recommend a Sunbelt worked P-90 with one of their cams. There are several options here. James' head is from Sunbelt. Don't know about his cam. -Forged pistons of some kind. Forged is forged for the most part. The top two or three companies aren't that much different other than price. Maybe just slighly over stock bore, like 87 or 87.5mm. -High quality machine shop to perform much of the heavy duty work. -Upgraded Fuel system, i.e. injectors,(size depends on turbo size) fuel pump, fuel lines, Swap to HFM vice flapper door, most likely a speed density system as most aftermarket EMS's support. -Possibly consider some form of custom header....but you can make great power with the stock manifold, it just requires planning and tuning. -Obviously a custom 3" exhaust from the turbo back. -eagle rods are fairly cheap,(relatively), but stock rods, properly prep'ed will survive nearly 500hp. Mix thoroughly and bake at 425 for 15 min and set out to cool. -Bob

Mike, Let me phrase Katman's question a little more clearly. HOW MUCH FOR THE ENGINE BUDGET? You can easily spend 10k on body and interior so that doesn't help us at all. Pin a number down $$ wise or any suggestions we give you are useless. But lets take a bigger look here. You posted in this thread: http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000960 And again in this one: http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000418 and your comment: and you went back and forth on the 7mgte motor. What is the fastest car you have ever driven? I mean driven, not ridden in. If it is a low 14, high 13 second car or slower, trust me, take a easy step and shoot for high 12's. You will kill yourself with a jump like that. I don't think many here will disagree with me on that one. If you have never driven a mid-high 12 second car, you have absolutely no idea what it is like. And that will be a "Monster" and will kill about 99.5% of the cars on the street. I don't know about you, but it is not often that I line up on the street,(I don't street race, refering to just plain driving), next to a car capable of sub 13 second 1/4 mi. And even if they were, 50-70% of the drivers can't get them to go that fast anyways. My point? Your aiming for pie in the sky, and it will cost you nearly all of your 10k budget to get a L28ET to put the kinda power required for mid-low 11 second runs down. If you can break into the 12's, not much on the road can even touch you. And that is significantly less money, and much much easier to do. And BTW, the AEM race unit will not be available for some time, and will cost between $1500-2000 for the unit, harness and such. You are better off going with a SDS, Perfect Power PRS system or similar. But in reality, you are best going with a stock ECU, maybe modified by Jim Wolf, a good FMIC, an upgraded turbo and fuel system and going from there. But that was covered well in the two posts I indicated above. The reason I bring that up is repetitiveness. People wonder why I harp on those who ask questions that can be easily answered with the search function. The "regulars" with the answers to your questions tire of answering the same question over and over again. You aren't really helping when you are posting essentially the same question you posted last month. It just contributes to clutter. Not flaming on you Mike, just trying to keep clutter to a minimum. -Bob

Jamie, Perhaps you are a bit out of date with your info. All BMW 6's M or not are DOHC now. And I will say the 2.8 and 3.0L motors from the regular 3 and 5 series are phenomenal motors. And to be honest, the older M3 motor, the 96-99 3.2L's are cheaper and more practical if someone wanted a crazy swap. My 00 BMW M coupe put 220 to the wheels with 220 torque. If you are lucky, you can find one of those motors for 4-6k with tranny. However, for the same price, you can have a skyline GT-R motor as I do now. Expect to pay at least 10k+ for a E46 M3 motor,(the 300 hp one). M power, if you do a search of this forum, you will find a few posts about that motor and the older BMW motors. Good info in the posts about cost, etc.. -Bob

Nathan, Take a real close look at about 60-70 on the outside scale. The inside scale goes into triple digits, so it is MPH on the outside and he was hitting 180. The acceleration from 140mph when he goes from 6 lbs to 17 lbs was unbelievable. Wow. Maybe my RB swaped Z can do that.... Uh yea. right. -Bob

big big word of warning. Sure, you can get a rb motor of UNKNOWN condtion, with absolutely no way to verify it at all, but you have no idea what the shipping will end up. If you are lucky, and they are smart, you can ensure they pack it in a box that is less than one cubic meter,(about 3x3feet), and they are savvy enough to put it in with someone elses container, you might get away with about $5-700 total shipping cost. It is about $2-400 per cubic meter. That does not include tax, duties, and fees, which vary depending on who you go through, the value, etc. Next, if the box is say 1.1 meter x 1.1 meter x 1 meter, you are now paying for 4+ cubic meters. See what I mean? Every direction you go over, is another cubic meter you must pay for. So if it is off in two dimensions, that means on 4 sides, it goes over. all 3 dimensions? 6 cubic meters. See what I am driving at? You might get lucky and find someone not charging by the cubic meter, but that is rare. it is several thousand dollars to ship an entire crate(ocean crate, maybe 10mx5mx5m?), like $4-6000. Unless you really know the person who is dealing with the shipping on that side, don't do it. And pay in advance, or you can end up paying more than quoted on this side, or not get your crate. I looked into this heavily and talked with those who have shipped. My motor is being shipped from Japan. I had to get them to rebuild the crate since it was about 1.3x1.1x.9m. That was $90 in wood times two boxes. They had to do some creative packaging to get a RB26 and all the associated junk, plus a RB25 transmission in a crate that could be handled by a forklift,(remember, nearly 8-900 lbs with the crate). Wood is not cheap in Japan. Food for thought. I would really recommend AGAINST buying off Yahoo or ebay japan. I would only suggest you have something bought and shipped from Japan if you know the person, or they are in the military and can get away with a FPO-AE address. Even then, it is hard to ship a 700-900lb box, no matter what the size. While the deals are great, there are far too many unknowns to commit several thousand dollars. It would be kinda silly to pay $1000 for a RB26,(which may be very incomplete, manifolds, lines, etc..) then to have to pay $1500 or more in shipping and such to get it over here. You could have shopped around and gotten a complete, verifiable motor for maybe a little bit more. And there was even one for sale here for $2500! Although for the RB26, expect at least $5k, more like 6-7k for everything you need for a good swap. I can understand what Zeroyon is driving at, but I think it is a very bad idea for anyone in the States. Remember, he is stationed in Japan if I remember correctly. -Bob

Nope, don't have the personality... -Bob