Bob_H

Just how big is the Saab intercooler? My thought was it wasn't very big, but I guess I am wrong? I look forward to the pictures if anyone can put one up. -Bob

I just had some thought on the overall velocity in the "system". Yes, we want to keep the velocity in the piping below 400 some odd feet per second so the drag isn't a large effect. However, the faster it goes through the intercooler, the less time to transfer away its heat. The slower it goes, while being a negative effect from the point of system volume, means it spends a bit more time in the intercooler. May not be a huge amount of time, but more time is more time. Food for thought. -Bob

I guess we ought to look at what Stony is running. However, we need to factor in his tube runs are very short,(top-top each side). I have made the commitment to run a different car at the first Feb event, so I have a few more weeks to work out the bugs in the intercooler side,(piping, size of intercooler, etc..). Ideally, I want to find the same type of intercooler as Stony has. That is as big as we can fit in front of the radiator. I'm still up in the air. I think if I can't find a setup similar to Stony's, I'm gonna run 3 inches. Not real thrilled about the .5 inch step-down at the outlet from the turbo's, but I guess it must be dealt with. -Bob

Damm the internet! I just dumped my response b/c I suck at the internet....argh... Ok, keeping to facts, and backing up the facts... I take some issue with the following statement: That is a very broad statement that I feel holds no water. First, what is meant by "more efficient on the top end"? Efficient can mean a number of things, better fuel mileage, less power, more power, etc.. To claim it is because of the stroke/bore design excludes a huge number of important factors as to how much power is produced. To me it is the same as saying, "The RX-7 has 260 hp and the Chevy Tahoe has 285hp, so the Tahoe is faster". Obviously there are more factors involved as to which is faster. But assuming you mean produces more power higher in the rpm range, I'm not sure I agree. The stock figures for the 6G motor say 300 hp at 6000 rpm vice 300hp at 6400 rpm in the VG30dett. And with respect to torque, it is 307@2500 in the 6G vs 283@3600 in the VG. That indicates to me that the 6G is more of a "grunt down low" type motor vice the VG. I believe you are aluding to a bigger bore allowing more potential use of the valves to bring in air and fuel. However there are about a million other things that feed into that. And long stroke motors tend to produce more torque and at a lower rpm, but that depends on rod length, compression ratio, combustion chamber design, camshaft specs, etc.. As you can see, the 6G has a shorter stroke, but produces more torque.... If we are going to compare one type of motor,(or make of motor), to another, please address all the variables, otherwise it is a useless excercise. And lets drop the I said, you said from the posts. All it does is focus on what the person said vs what was said. Noone is innocent here. -Bob edit: ps- shoot, forgot to add one thing I had in the first post. You asked about putting the 6G into your car. Sure, you can pick up the motor fairly cheap, however it will not be a cheap or easy swap. Just take a look at the guy who was talking about putting the 928 setup in his car. You will find the 6G, while possibly being a great motor, will be very hard to adapt to a RWD platform. What are your overall goals? Do you want a certain HP? Are you drag-racing, road-racing, daily driving? Is it just a WOW factor? If you are fairly sold on the Mitsu. motors, I say go with the 4G63 motor as they have been adapted to RWD in several ways. Read the post in the alternate forum,(well this one), about putting a 4G63 stroker into a Z. Good power, very light weight, good combo. Your goals will help others identify what might fit your needs.

I actually have a brand new set. $75 for the set shipped. NISMO sells them. I would suggest the Carbotech rear brake shoes. They are $119 plus shipping, but I believe a better shoe material. -Bob

Nope, not yet. That will wait till after I get the suspension transplanted. Then I will see just how much, if any, I will need. -Bob

Yea, what he said,(jeromio). Well put. -Bob

Rover, Welcome and I am not alone in what I am about to tell you. Search. It is a cool button right between register and FAQ up top. For the power you want, there are about 100 different options...and it has been covered a bunch of times. Your power requirements are rather low, and a Lexus V8 is a bunch of work,(as noone has done it with a Supra 5 speed before, and only one Z with the V8 at that...but you can find all this by a search). Happy hunting with your: Search Let us know what you find. -Bob

Poof. Thanks guys. -Bob

Man, you just made my day! That is hysterical! "drop in"... I can appreciate that! -Bob owner of a "drop in" RB26dett and a "drop in" different make suspension!

double post. internet retard...

Please don't as we have had enough trouble keeping the subject focused for Jamie. Nissan is his only choice. I tried to find some RB plots, but no luck. I found some 600 hp plots, but they are mapped differently and are in KW vs speed vice HP vs rpm. And I think it was 28psi with different turbo's, so not a good comparison. So Jamie, what is the timeframe the owner will decide? I take it this is an effort for a year from now? You still haven't said what the overall goals are, (I realize you may not know that). Just curious. -Bob PS-Lets not start this again. First, we have no information as to what turbo(s) the supra was running, boost, head work, etc..? Without that info, comparing a 600hp car to a 600 hp car is like comparing a 600 hp diesel to a 600 hp F1 engine. Since this is obviously a hot topic, I suggest starting a new thread for those who want to discuss the 2JZ vs the VG or RB or any other motor. Please keep this one on topic about possible Nissan engines for Jamie's shop. -Bob

Hmmm, dyno plots of a VG motor. First, any plots of anything other than dyno queens for power above 700 hp is hard to come by. The people producing serious power for drag racing often don't want their competition to know exactly how much power they are producing or where in the powerband they have it. But with that in mind, I did find this VG30dett plot: (specs are: bored out to 3.2L, running 20psi on pump gas, GT2350's for the turbo's): I don't think it is an unreasonable jump to say another 1-200 hp could be found with race gas, more boost and tuning. Now you are approaching 1000 hp at the flywheel,(in the 900 range to get 700+ at the wheels). And there is always bigger turbo's, bigger intercooler, nitrous, etc.. And this was a "daily driver". So an all out race effort I think it is not hard to stretch and see a VG at 1000+ hp. All we have proven is both the RB and the VG can produce that kinda power. With an aluminum, open-deck design, I would put a cap at about 7-800 hp for the VQ motors. Just my uneducated guessing though. With enough money you can make elephants fly. -Bob

Along the lines of Jeromio's post, my understanding was all the VQ blocks were iron. Someone said,(can't find which post), that the 350z motor is an aluminum block? I don't know much about the 350z, but I'm not sure that is correct? Anyone, Buller? If that is true, the trucks should have an iron block, and would be more sturdy for a serious buildup. Come to think of it Jamie, the truck blocks might be a good start....and inexpensive to boot! (well, compared to a 350z block...) -Bob

I thought you were talking about drag racing. My mistake. But something to consider that is very relevant and shows how apples to oranges this is. The 300zx body is far more slippery than the GT-R body. So equal hp for equal hp will produce a faster 300zx. In the end that tells us little. Drag rises as the square of speed. The Z32's drag coef. of .31 vs the R32 GT-R of .40, and .35 for the R-33. I don't know what the R-34 was, but I imagine it was similar to the R-33. So for the minimal difference in top speeds of the two efforts who's to say? Not to mention they both ran in different classes it was BMS vs BGCC in the R33,(the only Bonneville RB effort of note). So Blown gas modifed sport vs blown gas competition coupe. I ignored the displacement difference of E vs F,(F is 2-3L, E is 3.01 to I think 4.26) I can't comment on exactly what the difference means as far as power, but it is still different classes. Here is a pic of the Z32 effort,(notice the flush lexan windows, etc..): Z32 effort by JUN And the R-33 effort,(basic sedan with JUN aero kit): R-33 RB26 effort Yes, they set a record that hasn't been matched. But the RB isn't exactly in a slippery car.... And so closes the RB vs 2JZ vs VG "discussion".... -Bob wanders off into his own fantasy world...

Noone? Buller? Anyone? Post here if your lazy and I'll e-mail you. -Bob

Jamie, I don't think any of us here will be able to answer those questions. A lot of that is still very unknown. I would suggest you try to find some contacts in Japan and talk to those racing it in the Japanese GT leauges, possibly Nissan themselves. However the GT races are tightly controled, and my understanding is they run either 300 or 500 hp depending on class,(restrictor plates). So that may not be the best source. You are likely talking a custom forged crank, custom rods and pistons, extensive head work, custom turbo's and tuning....not cheap. My WAG as to what kinda power the VQ will withstand before needing aftermarket stuff,(assuming forged pistons), is 6-700 hp. Replacing rods and pistons? 8-900 hp. Just my uneducated WAG. Some unsubstantiated rumors say the VQ was not as overbuilt as the VG30, but no basis to back it up. Tough call on which motor. What is your target audience? Do you want more drag cars in the shop? Do you want more RWD or FWD business? You left that out and it is rather important to what you will draw from this effort. Do you want to develop parts? Do you want more customers? A RWD effort will net a higher percentage of RWD customers to an extent. A VQ effort will likely draw 350z, other VQ enthusiasts. Again, is the purpose to draw customers, or develop and sell parts? That might make a difference in what you do. If it is to develop parts, I think the VQ has more potential. If it is to develop customers? I think the RB might be a better route,(more knowledge available to produce power, and cheaper, i.e. less R&D). Interesting side note, I have heard the new R35 GT-R which should be available here will have a VQ based motor, possibly a V8TT. It seems fairly certain it will not be the RB. Maybe you can talk to Nissan about being a test mule for them for the Infiniti GT-R! Your business really needs to identify what they want out of the effort, customers or parts sales? Maybe it is dyno and development work they want? That should drive the project. And yes, I think RWD at import meets will be well received, esp. with a known powerplant like the RB,(or an exotic VQ setup). -Bob

Please guys, lets not get into a pissing match on single vs twin's and RB vs 2JZ. Bottom line, not one of us here has had the pleasure of working on BOTH. Many have not worked on ANY! I think Mario summed this up well when someone was asking about why he ran two turbo's on his GTR-700,(running somewhere over 1300 hp) vice a large single: Not only that, two turbo's, esp. high end turbo's are usually more expensive than the single large turbo. It also simplifies piping, exhaust, etc.. There is no RIGHT answer. Only different solutions. So VG30, VQ35, RB26, and the 2JZ,(not an option as I understand it for Jamie), given enough time and research, will produce amazing power. And your splitting hairs to talk about the differences. We in the US are much more familar with the 2JZ. Japan and AUS are much more familiar with the RB. It is moot for you to knapkin race and paper power each other to death about which is better. I know very few people who have put lots of time and effort into developing several different types of motors,(the 2JZ and RB to name one set). As for the 300zx record? Long since broken. Heck, when HKS brought their 180sx to NJ for an exhibition run, they ended up running in the competition and ran 7.25 @ 193 in the finals to win,(earlier ran 7.18 @ 191). Oh, in a four year old machine. But your still splitting hairs btw the cars. The US sees more 2JZ cars because we HAVE them here. If the RB were available here, I think it would be a different,(unknown) most certainly exciting scene. It is always interesting to see what people defend and claim is the best. The same happens when talking about track cars, brakes, etc.. 9 times out of 10, people back the car they have or wish they had. And most of the time they have little to no experience in the "competition" they are bashing. Keep open minds when talking about all these, and try not to show how limited your knowledge is by one-siding,(my new word) a discussion. Jamie, thanks for keeping exciting topics on the table! -Bob on edit: I would rather see a 240z vs a 300zx. My main point was a newer car,(not the 300zx). However you do have a good counter-point. It really comes down to what is the shops purpose with the effort

Megashaft. You explained things clearly for what you wanted, but you started with some inaccurate info,(and very incomplete if I do say): Most of the Supra's have single turbo's. Most of the high power Skyline's with the RB26 have two turbo's. Take a look at the records for those cars and you will see about 90-95% have twins on them. HKS, JUN, GTR-700, etc.. Take a look at this records page to see how many have two turbo's: records page And one very important fact about what you are comparing,(and everyone else). Most of the RB26 drag efforts,(all that I know of), are keeping the AWD. None have a solid rear axle,(not sure on the HKS car) which would greatly help their 1/4 mi times. AWD is only advantageous for launching to an extent, and then it is a detriment. So you are comparing apples to oranges in your VG vs RB talk,(not just you, everyone). I think there has been far more development on the RB motor, but that doesn't say which is better. The RB can make up for its lack of displacement by reving. I have seen a VG engine turn 10k rpm, but they were having lots of other problems with that motor,(things started breaking because of vibrations). And this: First, you are in the US, not Japan or Australia, so that is a completely inappropriate comparison. Of course there are more VG motors! The RB is not offered in ANY car in the US. That alone makes is about as rare as a 3 rotor RX-7. They are out there, but are few and far between. With the used market finally catching up,(i.e. enough cars in junkyards in japan and aus.), we are starting to see lots of SR20DET's, CA18DET's and the various RB motors. The RB's took a little longer because they started out in more expensive cars and the cost is only now coming down to a resonable range. Jamie, wanna know where the development is now? The new VQ motors. The Japanese touring cars have swapped out the RB's and are running VQ's. But there is little info on how durable they are, what kinda power they can support, etc.. Now Jamie, in all honesty you want to attact attention to your shop? I don't think the 240Z is the way to go. People want to know you work on cars like theirs, or cars they want to own. That means newer cars. Think of it this way, you see two cars competing, one is a 510 with a RB motor running low 8's, the other is a 300zx running low 8's, which shop would you go to? Idealy you would say the one that does the best job. The reality is for today's market,(i.e. 15-30 year olds), they are more often attracted to the more modern car shops. But lets say you stick with the 240Z and tub the rear. The RB is hard to beat. over 1000 hp in either setup will require a fair amount of money and research and development. Depending on the money you want to spend, Mario,(of the GTR-700), is now offereing RB's for sale in the 800, 1000 and 1200 hp ranges. No idea at all on price, but to avoid having to spend all that money on R&D and get a proven combo? Here is that page: For Sale engines.. I know you want to showcase your shop, and you can still do that, with the chassis work, and the name. It is not terribly important that you assembled every part of the engine, as few shops do,(they farm it out to machine shop, etc..). You really need to look at your ROI, or Return on Investment. An all out assault in IRDC or otherwise is not cheap. Do you really think it will generate enough new business and revenue to pay for itself? Do you have a big sponsor lined up besides the shop? I highly doubt you will see the return...but you are in an area I am not as knowledgeable in. I'd be willing to bet there are better classes that will cost you less, but will produce a better ROI. I would initially concentrate on a regional area vice national. With increased magazine coverage comes much more additional time answering dumb questions on the phone from folks who won't really spend any money. I know many successful shops who stopped worrying about magazine coverage and ads because of all the extra time,(read wasted) they spent talking on the phone to those who just wanted to milk them for info. Personally, I'd love to see a 240Z in the finals. But look at all the 510's that compete in those classes? They don't get nearly the coverage the other cars do... food for thought. With that in mind, a VQ effort would make the most sense to me, and the car would become less important as they would focus on your work getting the VQ to produce power,(this is the 350z motor, etc..) -Bob

I am doing an article and need some feedback with regards to track events/races. I don't want to air a bunch of the questions here. Some of the basics; your experience with wear and adjustment plus impressions vs others compounds available. -Bob rehanvey@yahoo.com rehanvey@yahoo.com

Mech E for me, but fortunatly the Navy lets me fly planes instead of having to prove to them I know how to analyze a structure. I hope it stays that way. -Bob

This belongs in the for-sale/buy forum. Trust me, those actually looking to buy check that forum. Please don't put it here. -Bob

Daniel, Welcome. First, their is a RB25 oil pan that is a rear-sump pan. I don't know the specific application, but I have one in my garage. If you are super interested, I can do some research and find out what it came from. I think the GT-S RWD car. So some RB-25's have front sump, some mid, some rear. I think most are rear sump pans. You can always ask the importer you are buying from. If it is rear sump, you are fine and no mods should be required. As for the engine mounts, two things. First, they mount the engine rather far forward. If you are familiar with the V8 swaps, there is the Scarab position and the JTR position. The JTR is the prefered, as the engine is set back and down. The mounts Stoney used are similar to the Scarab position. Brad and I are using custom made mounts that set the RB26 as far down and aft as you can put it. If you are not road racing, it really won't matter much, so I suggest going with the ready-made mounts. The part numbers are listed in the forums on the 240z.org website. Look here: 240z.org modified z forum post Next, as for what modification is required on the tranny x-memeber? It depends on what trans. you use. The RB-20 trans is slender and nearly the same size as the stock 5 speed ZX box,(81-83). The RB-25 GT-S box is big and bulky and will require cutting the "ears" in the transmission tunnel off and a custom mount bolted to the bottom floorpan,(such as a JTR mount). With some research, you will find you can likely bolt it all in with the right selection of parts,(maybe some minor mods). The radiator will have to be an aftermarket one. You can order a camaro radiator from JTR and it will work in the Z. You other options are Griffin or Ron Davis Racing. It is about $300-350 for a Griffen and $400 for a Ron Davis, both full custom aluminum. Look at the RB motors to see what side the coolant pipes go in and out from,(i.e. same side, opp. sides, etc.. the Z is opposite sides). And the intercooler is a full custom job. But take a look in the turbo section and ask about intercoolers as lots and lots of people have put various intercoolers on their Z's for many different motors. -Bob

TimZ, I'm with you. First, I applaud the guy for wrecking one car and having the courage to come out on the track to try and improve his skills. That still doesn't change that it is an unfortunate accident. As John pointed out, it still happens to those of us who have lots of time on the track. Try loosing your brakes going into a corner at 110mph+! A quick shift to third then second to lock up the rear tires was all I could do to keep from going off. Saved the car, pulled right in. Changed underwear and went out again. And Dan, you don't want to get me started about driving students cars. Bad idea all around, and for exactly the reason you posted. I can think of no legitimate time to drive a students car. Not saying they won't learn something, but if I need to show them something, that is what my passenger seat is for. If I have a full blown race car with one seat? I do have a tow vehicle and friends who are instructors with two seats. Again, I see absolutely no reason to drive a students car and no good coming from it. Period. If I know the student, I might consider it, but only as John pointed out, very slowly and conservatively. But even then, the worst can happen. A fellow M Roadster type was at his first event ever and the instructor was driving his car in the first session,(on the second lap). The car in front of them dropped coolant on the track, the instructor spun and lost control. Over $12k of damage and that guy will likely never go on track again. There are just too many unexpected things on track when it is not your own car. -Bob

Jason, I had an interesting discussion with John of Zspeedauto,(posts here as such), about some of the Maxima heads. I can't verify the info, but it is worth checking out. First, we are all familiar with the N-47 "Maxima" head on the 2.4L motor. Apparently there was a N-47 on the 2.8L Maxima that has square exhaust ports,(no liners), and the supposedly more desireable combustion chamber. He wasn't 100% sure that it is on every 2.8, but he saw it on more than one Maxima. It is intriguing to say the least and most certainly worth the look. I myself am very interested in what exactly is the deal with a 2.8L Maxima head....as I wasn't even aware Maxima's had a 2.8L, but I don't know squat about Maxima's anyways. Don't know the combustion chamber size or any other info, but I think it is worth the look. If you are running NA, and only a 2.8L, your money is much better spent modifying the N-42 or 47 to work vice all the setup and timing issues with a shaved P-90. Remember, you must then re-check the overall cam timing to ensure it is occuring when you want it to. The timing chain slack will be an issue at .080 or .100 inches. It may only be a few degrees, but that might negate any positive effect of the chamber over an equal compression ratio N-42..... Food for thought. I'd love to find out more about the 2.8L maximas if anyone has info. -Bob