Bob_H

Oh, RB progress is moving along. Got the motor right before I left on vacation for christmas. I am ordering things such as the intercooler, radiator, etc... I decided to do the suspension swap to a shell of a car,(see buy/sell for my want ad), while putting the RB into my existing body with suspension, etc.. That gives me time to work out the bugs in the motor, keep getting track time starting with the full course at VIR in Feb, while giving the shop the time it really needs to do the suspension swap. So yea, the project, as all projects, took on a bigger scope, but I'll get it done the way I want. I hope to have the motor in and started,(maybe not running right, but running), by the end of this month. -Bob

Ah ha. I was assuming starting with a level lower control arm, as mine are nearly level as my car sits,(granted with aftermarket suspension). See: So with my assumption of a level starting point, it will lose camber as it compresses. And a 100% stock Z can't be that much lower than level....of course I haven't seen one in a long time... The interesting thing is exactly how much does it change? And I was assuming that the top was not pivoting. But my basic assumption in the last paragraph was correct, i.e. it has the most negative camber when the lower control arm is perfectly level, and has less above and below that. Therefore, I win my argument, ah discussion! So is there a flaw in my logic? I would think with the upper mount pivioting, that it would negate any change overall...but this is with the unknown how much the camber changes through the travel of the Z.... -Bob

While I apprecaite the thought, it does nothing for explaing why....I know plenty of cars,(and trucks), that gain no camber at all.... Of course I am talking about solid front axles such as my 1930 Ford Model A. And a great example of a car with double arms that gains postive camber as it compresses is the 60's Ford Mustang. At full droop it has some crazy negative camber, at full bump, that top of the tire leans out something fierce. So there are plenty of cars that don't gain negative camber as you lower them...but I am limiting our discussion to the early Z's, i.e. 70-78. So again, show me how, and examples of cars don't show me squat. -Bob

I thought I knew what I was talking about, but have been lead to believe I may be off base. I will post my thoughts, and please post yours if you feel I am out in left field,(well, I am in left field, but tell me if my ideas are in left field...). I contend there is NO camber gain, but camber loss,(or gain in positive or loss of negative, however you want to word it) in the early Z strut assy's. The spindle is attached to a strut, and can only compress. The lower control arm can pivot, but assuming you start at or near level, it will only decrease the effective distance btw the upper mount and the lower part where the spindle is,(i.e take an extreme unrealistic example where the strut is angled out at ~30 degrees, now piviot the lower control arm up and with the two fixed points of the inner lower control pivot and the upper strut mount, the angle will decrease, and lose camber). I'm not sure my explanation is clear. Let me try this. Show me how the Z gains negative camber as it is lowered or the strut is compressed. I am not set in my mind, but I am having a really hard time seeing how it can gain camber as it compresses. A good friend seems set in his mind that I am not of my right mind....and that strut cars like the Z will gain negative camber as they are lowered or are compressed. II not only think he is wrong, but that he looks funny too. I only see it staying basically the same through all travel, having the most negative camber when the lower control arm is perfectly level, losing camber whenever it is above or below that. Bring it on! -Bob

Again, just to clarify. I said they are drying up the "extra" suppliers effectively cornering the market. I never said dealer only. It is still second hand info, so we all will have to wait and see. And I said $2-300+, and esp. not $600. The issue is already confusing enough, lets try not to make it worse as I am clearly not helping! I'll see what I can find out on the sensor, but really, I already overstepped my bounds on what I can say. Lets just say my source is doing the programing for the controler, i.e. the PIC loops, etc.. I doubt I can reveal what they are compensating for, etc.. until the product in on the market. Such fun... -Bob edit- i did ask my friend to check the actual sensor on the expensive setup and to see about your comments on the NTK being able to do much much more. I would be very interested if their product makes it as capable as the big money setup. He was not clear on what it takes to read at that rate with the NTK. But I did put a seed of thought in his mind from your comments before he dives into the programing. I want a controler that can do per cylinder closed loop as your FJO can, but I want to do it with two sensors,(i.e. one for each turbo), and' I'm a cheapskate. I already spent $7k on the engine/tranny, not to mention intercooler, fans, radiator, exhaust, etc..... The problem I see with a turbo is I would think it would smooth out the pulses, making it harder to disecern each cylinder....But that is an area beyond my knowledge. In time. My friend is more a electrical type guy and is not as well versed in the car side of the house,(has a great desire to learn, but is still learning). I'll keep us updated with what I can. I think the timeframe they were looking at was end of this month, mid Feb to finish and start production. So I would add a month or two to that as we all know how those things slip,(see AEM and the race unit...) oh and on continuing edit: what does pressure compensating do for A/F readings? My unknowledgable take is if the pressure goes up, there will be more O2 molocules passing the sensor, so that should compensate for the extra pressure,(i.e. more gas is passing, but it senses more O2, but the result is the same, i.e. same % O2 per set amount of exhaust since all it is doing is measuring ratio...or would it register more rich?)

Much more plausable than what? You mean what you said, or what I said in my last post? Sorry, you lost me there. And I highly doubt this is FUD and it is from a company who profits from making wideband A/F setups among other things. I'm glad you are the skeptic as it helps us sort through the FUD. The company is also working on a wideband for the Bosch sensor as well,(the LSU-4 vs. the L1H1 NTK sensor - should be finished in a month or so, my source is doing the programing for it). I talked to him for two hours tonight and finally got a complete picture. Sadly, I can't pass much of it on. I guess NGK is more interested in profit even if they squeeze themselves out of the "aftermarket" scene. They will always have Honda and Subaru and will provide sensors for them. But with the new Bosch,(which is just as fast in response, but requires different controls), is cheaper and will eventually replace the NTK sensor as the DIY choice. As a FYI, with the the $5000 fancy wideband mounted right next to the NTK sensor, they have the same calibration, but the fancy sensor samples near seamlessly while the NTK,(and Bosch), samples a few times a second. So a blip in the throttle would not be noticed, or would only register slightly with the NTK vs seeing the entire response with the high dollar sensor. The only real disadvantage,(well, two), of the Bosch sensor is heat and life. The NTK can withstand up to ~1200 degrees, vs the ~800 of the Bosch. That means you could put the NTK about anywhere and it would work,(it can also withstand more pressure variations). The Bosch must be mounted further downstream, i.e. the downpipe for turbo cars, etc.. And it will not last as long as the NTK sensor. The NTK is supposedly good for ~500 hours, and I don't have the figures on the Bosch other than not as long. But it is ~$77 right now, so it is cheaper. Either way, it seems that the price of the NTK sensors will go up, and I predict a shift to the Bosch LSU-4 sensor for the DIY and cheap bastard types,(like me ). As a reference, when this company finishes their new Bosch wideband setup, it will have a retail price of $500 with a sensor. So you can expect to find it in the $400 range if you shop around. That is a controler, a display and a sensor,(plus wiring). Think of the techedge kit V2.0 but with a sensor in the kit. I can't comment on what they will have that is different than the techedge kit. -Bob

Do A Search.... Its been covered several times. And it is too tall to fit,(you'd have to lay it on its side like the Datsun L6 to clear the hood). -Bob

Alright, here's the scoop. I asked for a more detailed explanation of what is going on and here is what I got: (BTW, turns out I wasn't completely spaced out with the NGK reference) Here's the story. I'll start with the background. NGK is the North American affiliate (sister) of NTK, whick is Japanese. This company was contracted by Honda to build Wideband O2 sensors for their 1.5L VTEC engine. They were also contracted by Subaru to build the same Wideband O2 sensor (L1H1 UEGO) for their WRX. There was another company, Ekland, that bought the sensors in mass to sell to the aftermarket. Ekland was only supposed to supply them to parts stores who were only supposed to supply them to Honda owners in need of a replacement sensor. But when there are roughly 10,000 vehicles on the road and all of a sudden there are 5,000 sensors per year being sold through Ekland, NTK/NGK got suspicious. They did some research and found out that we (car guys) were using them for other applications, they saw the potential for making lots of money. So, they pulled all orders from Ekland, and have basically dried out all suppliers to the low-cost aftermarket. Honda and Subaru couldn't care less because they always did recieve their parts direckly from NTK/NGK. What it means is that now we (the aftermarket improper application consumer) must buy directly from NTK/NGK for a whopping $300+. Or... we go buy the Bosch LSU4 sensor. He then went into some detail on the Bosch sensor that I can't re-post. Bottom line, it requires more complicated controls, and that is what techedge is working on in their version 2.0. So it wasn't three companies into one, but the one company pulling the others ability to sell their product. It is always nice to get a more accurate story. I'll leave the original stuff in my first two posts so people can follow the discussion. -Bob

That's what I get for posting and then leaving. I made some misleading comments in the first post. First I never said anyone was going out of business - not sure where that came from. I did say one company bought out the other two. I'm sorry, what I meant, but didn't write correctly, is one company bought the rights for the Wideband sensor, not the whole company. Basically the rights to build/manafacture the sensor. And my second misleading comment was that they are not available. I said there were ~5 left. That means currently, not no more ever. If you want to order some from thepartsbin.com, ask them to check the new jersey wharehouse/stock, but they are slightly more expensive, like ~$150 vs ~$117. The part number in question is a NTK, not NGK,(I'm a retard and was talking to someone about spark plugs right before I posted). is: C5010-75044. The sensors are very hard to get, and only one source makes them now,(vs the previous three, again, not new news, just not widely known) so it is resonable to expect the price to increase. There is a very high demand, which outstrips the current ability to supply, and with basic economics, it is reasonable to see the price increase. The Bosch sensor supported in techedge's version 2.0 is supposedly cheaper, but I don't have proof of that. More and more people are becoming aware of the extreme value of the wideband for tuning and are cleaning the shelves of supplies. I believe that is why one company bought the rights to corner the market, basic good business. Back to your regularly scheduled programing. -Bob

I hate to post as I am heading out the door for the weekend, but I think you folks ought to know. (edit) removed (/edit) The (edit)NTK(/edit) widebands,(commonly used in the DIY kits, i.e. the honda sensor), will soon be hard to get, or outrageously expensive. It used to be made by three companies and could be bought for ~$110-140. You don't want to know what it costs through honda.... One company bought out the other two and is cornering the market. That is part of the reason why you see many wideband companies switching to the Bosch sensor. Food for thought if you are looking at buying in the next few months. You will notice the part is on national backorder and are basically not available. Try to order one if you don't believe me. I think there are less than 5 left in the US according to him,(he was shipping out ~100 wideband displays when he gave this info). He doesn't like the Bosch sensor as much b/c it is not as accurate, but it is still better than a narrowband. I won't be able to respond to questions till early next week. Bottom line, if you have one already, be prepared to pay a bunch for the replacement sensor,(like 2-300+), or plan on switching to a unit that controls the Bosch sensor. Sorry to be the bearer or bad news, but this is a reliable source and it did bear out when we were trying to order a sensor for my friends new wideband. -Bob

Jason, Would you be so kind as to resize your sig pic? It is 100k! 3-5k seems to be the accepted norm. See the general annoucements section for tips on downsizing it w/o losing quality. BTW, when are you getting hopping on your RB transplant? -Bob

You can go over them, i.e. take apart and put back together, but no dice on a rebuild kit as they are no longer available as Rags said. The only thing you can buy is the upper main gasket, and I think the lower main gasket,(not sure on that one). That's it. The jets are obviously still available, but beyond that, I can't help you as I ran into the same problems with mine from the time I bought them till I sold them recently. -Bob

Brad, My only thought is that is at the dead bottom of the tank, and therefore will pick up all the sediment in the tank. Just food for thought. And as a consideration for the dial-up folks, maybe a re-size of the pics before posting on hybridz. I may order one, and will be in touch with you about the mounts. I think I have a solution for me getting you your clutch/starter and me getting the parts I need. I'll write next week. -Bob

You just want folks to think that is a racing suit. You know you wear it to bed each night. Dan's P.J.'s and a drinking problem -Bob

And this is coming from a guy who allowed himself to be photographed in red pajamas? 510 drums ugly? I think the sight of you in red pajamas is rather frighting! Bob

BTW, for street with some autocross? Stock disc's up front with stock calipers and either Axxis Ultimate, KVR or Carbotech pads. For the rear, 510 drums with Carbotech shoes. Good fluid all the way around, I suggest ATE superblue or the Ford Super duty. The ford stuff is ~$4-5 a quart and the ATE is usually $10. Flush the system,(brake fluid), at least once a year and have fun! That will be much more than you will need. For the speeds you will see at autocross, the stock system is more than adequate. Until you have enough traction,(read sticky tires like Hoosiers, etc), a big brake setup won't offer any advantage. As it was said before, if you can lock up the tires, the limit is not the brakes, but available traction. -Bob

Ok, I need to clarify why I think the first major upgrade should be disc brakes. It is not to add braking capability, but rather to add consistency. With the stock aluminum drums,(as aluded to before), don't have as much heat capacity,(think of a small vs big rotor), but most important, they expand when they get hot and flex under pressure of the shoes. When all that is added up, that is why your foot goes nearly to the floor after a few hot laps with stock aluminum drums. It is the additive effect of the aluminum expanding, flexing, and any other play in they system. That leads to less consistency where you need it most, on the track. That is the reason I suggest that be the first upgrade, not because it offers more braking, which it really doesn't. It just allows the braking system to do its job as intended every time. zr8ed, you ought to try the 510 drums. Sure, they don't look as cool as the Z drums, but they are a lot more effective. I'm sure you are familiar with the pull the parking brake up a click or two as the run session progresses....

Ok, first things first. The front brakes on a 240 are not the weak point. The rear drums, esp. with the aluminum drum is the weak point in the system. You are throwing around some terms, but they aren't really interchangable, and hopefully this will clear it up a bit. As it was discussed, don't even consider cross-drilled unless you are going for the bling bling look. There is one reason pads glaze, and it doesn't matter if you have 14 inch rotors or the stock 10 inchers. Pads glaze because they have gone above their operating temperature. If you are glazing pads, it is most likely because you have cheap-o pad. A good quality front pad on the Z will not glaze. As far as cooling? What you need to be talking about is heat capacity. All rotors are is heat sinks. The bigger they are, the more heat they can take before overheating. Vented rotors help cool the rotor back down by allowing air to flow through the inside of the rotor, transfering heat away. It is inaccurate to say neither one offers more cooling. Cooling is provided by you, i.e. your speed and any ducting you provide to the rotor. The vented rotor will dissapate more heat for a given amount of airflow than a solid rotor. But again, the front brakes of the 240Z are not the weak point and should not be the focus of your first improvement. Before I give my recommendations, you didn't say at all what the intended purpose is? Track days? All street use? Pure race? All that makes a difference, a rather large difference. A well sorted stock system with 510 drums in the rear will meet all your stopping needs until you get super serious on the track. And if you really want to "upgrade", the absolute best first thing you can do besides swap the front pads for some good ones is to put a disc setup in the rear. The best bet for a rear disc setup is Mike Gibson,(scca), or Ross Corrigan (Ross C). The offer a great rear disc upgrade for a reasonable price. Do a search of this forum and you will find them posting in response to brake questions many times. If you are going to spend any money, here are my suggestions, in order of priority: -Good pads up front, something like the Carbotech street line or the Axxis Ultimates. -Assuming you are staying with the rear drums, swap to a set of 510 iron drums,(have no fins), and a good quality rear shoe, again, Carbotech has the best options for the lowest price. You don't want the run of the mill shoe if you are keeping it and running it hard. -Rear disc swap,(see above) -last would be to upgrade to the vented rotor setup up front. The important factor in sizing brakes is heat capacity, not whether the pads glaze or not. If your pads are glazing, you are likely running your local auto parts store brand. Step up to some good pads, they don't cost that much and offer so much more. Also, bleed your entire system,(with a good fluid like Ford Super duty, or ATE super blue), get good shoes for the rear,(and ensure the front brakes are not sticking anywhere). You would be amazed at what a good working stock system can do. Stock front rotors with good pads, 510 rear drums with good shoes will provide everything you need till you are on the track in the advanced groups trying to stop from 130mph over and over again. -Bob

First, welcome. Second, do a search. With parameters that wide,(i.e. none), it is virtually impossible for us to pin down anything that is good. Much more info is needed. What will the car primarily be used for,(90-95% of the time)? What are your goals? (a hp goal does not count). What is your background, etc... To be honest, 123k on a stock L6 is nothing. 250k, I might start worrying. But if you are dead set on something else, I say swap to a L6 turbo. It is easy, straightforward, and can produce great power. At 16, you really don't want to spend the rest of high school performing a swap that WILL NOT be done in 6 months. Take a read around this site and read the from the people who are FINISHED. Take a look at how long they took to put in a v8, a V6 or anything else. I suggest mods that will keep the car out of commision for the least amount of time. And you need to take into account the amount of experience you have working on cars. If this is your first project, I would seriously consider doing nothing but suspension, brakes, and wheels/tires. Once you start into any engine/tranny stuff, you need equipment, experience, etc.... Saying we as a board are your experience might leave you out to dry a bit and will certainly prolong any project. Not trying to douse water on your ideas, but having done a few big projects, it is a bit of experience talking. Keep it simple, keep it on the road as much as you can. -Bob

I'm not forgetting, I don't know squat about fuel metering! Just so it is clear, all my comments were based on testing of SU carbs, modified and stock,(flat shaft modified), on a Supeflow airflow bench. No fuel, not motor, just air. -Bob

Si senor. No problem, just keep it small and tasteful. Size wise, it should be less than 3k, the smaller file size the better,(see dial up issues in the announcement section, attn mbrs). -Bob

I know I often confuse even myself, but I did say: So, recap: no backing plate sucked. The stock backing plate,(or air cleaner assy), and aftermarket horns, however, are nearly the same, i.e. no difference gained from the fancy horns over the stock air cleaner assy. Clear as mud now? One more time. Nothing but carbs = bad... Stock air cleaner/backing plate = good Fancy aftermarket horns = good That should help. Also, we have no idea what the airflow in the engine compartment is like at 80-100 mph. For all we know, it is pressurized, and negates the benefit of the horns, hence Norm's improvement? or maybe he just drove better those days... -Bob

Richard, Your concept is fine, but I think I wasn't clear in what I was saying. I was saying that to get the benefit of the fancy aftermarket horns, you needed a 150% VE. Something you just won't see on a NA motor. In otherwords, they aren't worth the money. The best a 2.8, mildly modifed motor might see is low-mid 90% range. 100% or more requires serious work on the cylinder head, esp. the the L6 non-cross flow head. A fully stock motor might only see 80% VE. -Bob edit-clarified the aftermarket vs. normal horns...

muchas gracias.

looks, shmooks. Until you got up into the 150% VE there wasn't a difference btw the stock backing plate, half radius horns and full radius horns. And I think it was a total of about 5-10 cfm total difference at 25 inches of water,(or 27, can't remember right now). But NO backing plate did make a rather significant difference, esp. as the airflow increased. Remember, on a a 2.4L, 100% VE was about 150 cfm per carb. The carbs maxed out somewhere just under 300 cfm. So even for a 3.1, it is well below the tolerance difference btw stock backing plate, short or long horns. -Bob