Derek

Just got back from meeting with Mazworx. Went very well. Nice clean facility. Plus they do have a boring bar that will do the cam towers. I hear what you guys are saying about the cam towers but it just seems to me that one clean bore through the towers and a cam ground to fit is the way to go. Of course when I get the price I may be of a different mind. I just checked and I can get 29mm drill rod. I could use that to check the alignment of the cam towers. If it locks up solid then I have a problem. If it doesn't then I'm good to go. The bottom line is I have options and I like options. They were just finishing up one of these bad boys for a 2JZ That's a big ol block of aluminum! Well at this point everything is in place to get it to the next level. I'm bringing a second mill online to do the head as my main mill is just too busy. I don't want to be rushed on the machining and I don't want to have to keep yanking it out of the mill.

They are split caps My fear is inaccuracies between the sets of caps being as they are coming from different motors. For the price of a line bore and considering how hard getting cams are it seems it would be good insurance. And a lot easier than me setting up a jig and boring them. Actually I would mount them to mandrels and face the mounting surfaces but that's still more work than I want to do. I prefer "And line bore the cam towers while you're at it" approach. I don't think I'll have much trouble with the tune. I managed to get that contraption of a manifold running really well. I was just pointing out that it can be tricky. Although when your design mantra is; Look cool Look really cool Actually run Then there is a lot of room for definition of "drivability" I think the honda guys have problems because they are still using the honda ecu. With megasquirt (and others) the ability to get a decent tune makes it pretty easy. Of course if you're looking for every bit of power that's a different story. Derek

Meeting with Mazworks tomorrow to see if we can come to terms with the machining. My big sticking point is finding someone to line bore the cam towers. At least someone semi locally. I really think the cam towers should be bored especially since we are custom grinding cams. Might as well take advantage of that. They are 29.5mm right now and finding someone with a bar that small has been problematic. Mazworks doesn't have one.

Well that was my first plan. Make a manifold that would accept a DCOE pattern. After further research in that department it seems 52mm ITB's are the bare minimum for a stock K20. That kind of leaves out all the DCOE style and puts you right into the DCO. I may be interpreting this wrong but that's the conclusion I've drawn at this point. I'm going with ITB's because I want them. From a tuning and drivability stand point a plenum with a single throttle body would probably be better. But I don't care:) Derek

Time for an update. I believe we have a path forward on the cams. I have a steel foundry that I indirectly work with that pours 8625 alloy. Billet cams are made from 8620 hot rolled bar. I'm going to make a set of traditional style patterns of the cam cores and have them poured in 8625. I just had a very good conversation with Ron Iskenderian and he is interested in grinding the cams. He said the 8625 would be fine. I'll send him the cast cores and he'll handle the straightening, heat treating and grinding. I need to reverse engineer a set of K20 cams to get the data we need. Anyone have a set laying around they can part with? I don't have firm pricing yet but it will be considerably cheaper then the prices we were throwing around before and more in line with normal cams. So we're back on track for now and moving forward. Derek

Thanks for that. I'll contact them. I talked to someone who was highly recommended and had a sit down meeting with the head. Unfortunately they seem to be as busy as I am and haven't worked up pricing. Called twice with no call back so that's my cut off so I'm on the hunt again. Too busy to call me back... Too busy to do the work. I'll contact Mazworx when I have more info on the cams. I may hold you to that:)

They list them at Jim wolf as being 2.5 degrees. That is probably all your going to get with the size of the dowel vs the diameter of the gear hub. This isn't my area but couldn't they be drilled to hit the mark your looking for? I've never made a adjustable cam gear before.

Hey you beat me too it. At least I provided a link! Edit: They get $140.00 a set to drill a stock set. I can beat that by a bit.

Hi Thanks. My head doesn't use the K20 timing setup. It uses a KA24 set. The cams will have a single dowel like the stock KA. You can buy drilled gears from a few suppliers but I'll be setting up a jig to do mine in the mill so I imagine this is something I'll be supplying. Here is a link to nico club with a how to article http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/djpantsspecrs-diy-adjustable-cam-writeup.html

To build on what Tony rambled on about:) I was hoping a minor cottage industry would sprout up around the head. I do the minimum machining to ensure quality then it gets taken from there. I'm hoping as soon as I have a running head there will be more interest, and some of these blanks fill in. I have my hands full just producing the head and associated castings so if someone down the road want's to produce headers for the head then they will most likely be the person who makes the headers and people will buy from them. I posted this earlier but I'll post it again Being as I'm poor I'm choosing to mod a set of existing headers. If I had deeper pockets I would go custom. I had enough money to buy the used honda parts I needed off of ebay. I could have saved a bunch by hitting up some machine shops for cracked complete heads. These are sweat equity dual cam heads. If someone wants a turn key head then this isn't for them yet. And may never be. If someone want's to buy castings and turn them into a turn key head and sell them all the better. If I had thought this all the way through I never would have done it so be glad there all these loose ends:) Derek

That is on the list of things to get answered. And thanks for brining it up again. I didn't mention it in my post as Things are a bit crazy. I'm thinking more of that being the prototype cam. I would have the mold 3D printed. This would allow me to complete the head and see what happens from there. I'm trying to get plan A,B and C in position so that I can make a decision where this is going after Ron gets back. Honestly though unless he has someone willing to work way under industry standard, the prices I'm getting for machined and hardened cores are probably pretty accurate. This may be a $10,000.00 or more head and that's the way it is. But it's not $40,000.00

Yea this cam thing has been tough. Not what I was expecting for sure. I've got enough info now so that I can have a coherent conversation when Ron comes back from vacation. This will give Tony some time to to work his angles as well. I've got the specs sent over to my steel foundry getting a core cast out of 4140 so we'll see how that progresses. I thought this was going to be a thread about 3D printed sand casting. Who knew it would really be about getting custom cam cores produced! Derek

Crower cams and equipment was the first call I made. I was informed in a very " you're really bothering me" tone " If we don't have the core we can't make the cam". Then "can you recommend someone to make the core?" Answer-No. So needless to say I wasn't impressed. I don't know who I talked to but at that point it didn't matter. I will call back and ask for Dave if you think it will make a difference. Jones Cams link was pink so I know I was there. Not sure If I contacted them or not. Actually yes and no. The two ends of the head, the combustion chambers and ports and the water jacket will always be printed as a single unit. This way the core registration will never change between castings. Plus as was pointed out I'm not constricted by hard tooling. For example. After I cast the first one I determined machining each combustion chamber would be so much easier than hand finishing. And a lot more accurate as well. This is much easier to fix digitally than traditionally. The 2 sides I will most definitely be going to traditional as the surface finish is better with bonded sand and I want it to look purdy. Agreed but as you know in turning as soon as you get the first chatter if you don't correct the situation then it just keeps resonating worse and worse. Then you have to stop, correct the chatter and proceed. That means me leaning over the machine the whole time. Also my lathe is a very tight accurate manual mill that I converted to CNC. I use it mostly for making custom tool holders and support items for the pattern mills. So it's not a production machine. Stop telling me I can machine the cores. I've had to talk myself out of it 3 or 4 times already:) I even had to call a machinist friend to talk me out of it! I know a time vampire when I see it. The non vtech K20 stick only has 6 lobes per side so there is a lot of material to remove.

Ok I just entered the hell that is K20 forums. I made a post looking for grinders that cut their own 8620 billets. We'll see where this takes me. And quoting G-E again Exactly. If I have to spend 2000.00 - 3000.00 for the first set I'd rather spend it with the company doing all the cores. Also as I've said again and again it's a k20. I want a K20 company making my cams. There are some real crooks in the world of K20 so this could get interesting. The crowd sourcing ideas are good but I'm not comfortable taking money until I get my head running and one or two more cast. What I'm looking for is commitment like Dans Now that's what I'm talking about:) Actually what I'm looking for is " if the head does this XXX and costs this $$$$$" I'm in" Not could be persuaded or thinking hard about. But IN. This will tell me what marks I need to hit. I've been at this selling S30 stuff over the interwebs for a while now. You'd be surprised how many people get lost looking for their paypal account after telling me they want a set of speaker panels:) I really hate to develop this head this way but I've got a bundle in it already and I need to really get a good grip on the market. It was really easy to justify before but from here on out it gets tougher. If you build it they will come won't cut it:)

And this guy gets it. It's a 6 cylinder K20 head. Apply whats already been done and you have power. I'm not going to address every individual comment about manufacturing the cores but they all have merit. Most of this comes down to Machine capacity and talent. I can't rough out a 30" core blank between centers on a lathe. It will chatter like there is no tomorrow. That means a steady rest setup for each journal. Comp cams can't seem to do it in one shot either http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/more-effective-camshaft-machining I seriously could make twice the money doing pattern work as it would cost to buy the blanks in the time it will take me to make two cores. But this doesn't solve the problem of production anyway. So no I won't be machining cores. I suppose the way forward is to find a lower priced 8620 core. Either through group buy or cheaper source. I can make patterns and chills to do iron cores. I can get them poured and certified. But if that only satisfies he lower HP builds then it seems pointless. Resources would be better spent towards machined cores. Which would be my preference. I agree with G-E. It did seem like a "go away kid you're bothering me" kind of price

I'll just put you down for two then

Hi Dan Not sure what performance or what stock your looking at but the stock honda exhaust rockers are $25.00 each. Being a non vtech you use exhaust on both the intake and exhaust. PN 14624-RAA-A00. Ferrea roller rockers are around $80.00 each. Derek

It's most likely the machining of the 40 mm round down to the profile that is the majority of the cost. Not the hardening. If I was doing it I would do all the round work in the lathe and then switch over to the mill with a 4th axis to cut the lobes. I can do this but I can make more money doing what I do best and pay someone who does cam cores all the time. And that costs between $1300.00 and $1800.00 each. My inbox hasn't exactly been overflowing with people who want to buy a head. And the cam prices haven't made it any better. Let's face it. When we were all saying I wish there was a bolt on cross flow twin cam head for the L6 we should have added "and it needs to be under $5000.00 complete with cams valves etc". Because based on the feed back I've received off forum this is the point where the decision is easy. After that for every $1000.00 you add it becomes harder and harder. The $3000-$4000 "just for cams" pretty much killed off the two that were serious. If I pull the plug now at least I'll shut everyone up about a twin cam head for the L6 and the mods can instigate a immediate ban on anyone who mentions it again:) Because a twin cam head for the S30 can't be produced in the numbers that will be purchased by S30 owners for under $8000.00. And that's if you're creative and can scrounge. $10,000.00 or more if you don't want to scrounge and would like to make reasonable power. Even if I based it on an RB30 the additional machining costs would put it on par with the K20. There is a reason the OS Giken is $40,000. This kind of work is expensive. 4 or 5 people who are ready to commit at these price points and it can move forward if not I've accomplished what I set out to do which is to showcase 3D sand printing to my clients. And believe me at this point they're impressed. Derek

Thought I'd do a quick update. The cam situation is a lot tougher than I led myself to believe. Actually it's not tough at all it's just expensive:) Custom made steel billet cams are going to be in the neighborhood of $1300.00 - $1800.00 EACH! And this does not include the final grind. I'm working on a much saner approach using cast iron cores which is what most of the cam cores are made up of. Google "chilled iron cam cores" and you'll learn plenty. The manufacture of these cores are not at all outside the bounds of what I can do. Being a cast item it actually brings it into my sphere of influence. I have 2 foundries that can pour the cores depending on what iron needs to be poured. The general consensus of my "brain trust" is that Ron Iskenderian is the guy to talk to as he is receptive to this kind of crazy talk. He is on vacation for two weeks so unless he's following this thread it will probably be three or more weeks before I can get some answers. So we're basically on hold for a bit. I also revisited why I ultimately chose the K20 over the RB head. The RB head is a lot trickier to machine and cast. It has an internal oil passage that needs to be cored as well as 2 passages that need to be gun drilled the length of the head. They are too small to core as the sand would probably break. Plus there is the matter of machining the cam towers and precision boring the lifter bores. If we were doing a group buy of 10 or 15 heads and getting all the machining done at one time then this would be feasible. Of course if we were doing a group buy of 10 or 15 cam core sets the price would probably come down on those as well. So it goes. Derek

Happy birthday you old fart! Welcome to the club. Wait a minute isn't it tomorrow where you're at? Or is it yesterday where I'm at.

That was awfully sappy...I think I threw up in my mouth a little..

Nope:) But it is what I do for a living. So there's that. The internals are very close to the K20 with extra meat in a few areas. Honda tries to save every gram for production costs as well as vehicle weight. Me, not so much. Thicker combustion chamber, thicker bottom surface, larger radius on the fillets, every head x-rayed, every head impregnated, etc etc. But you certainly bring up a valid point so don't think I'm dismissing you. All I can do is bring everyone along every step of the way and it's a journey we'll take together. The one that goes on my car may be the last and that's ok too! Derek

Head casting pricing. Some will be happy. Some will be sad. And so it goes:) Well I was trying to get a more complete picture for you but unfortunately I don't have cam pricing yet. And I'm not a big enough fish to push. The head casting, valve cover and front cover UN-MACINED is going to be $4500.00. My ESTIMATE for machining the parts to the point that an automotive machinist can finish it is going to be in the $500.00 range. I'm counting on being able to fire and forget on the machining. This should be doable based on the fact I'm printing the cores. If I have to stand over it the whole time it will double for sure. I'll have a handle on that after I machine the first one. Every head casting will be X-rayed and impregnated. Impregnation is a processes where the casting is put under a vacuum and a sealant leaches into the pores. Not in this is the intake manifold. I'll obviously be offering one but I haven't had time to draw it up to get pricing. If you think you are going to want one of these then by all means PM me. The more people we have on board in the beginning the better. Thanks Derek

Went and picked up the casting yesterday. Looks great. No surprises. I checked the shrink rate when I got back and my edumicated guess appears to have been good. I was off by .015" or so on the total length which for this size casting is not too bad. keep in mind trying to measure a casting is like trying to measure a rock. Just to give you an idea how cool 3D sand printing is here is a shot of the part number and name. Unfortunately that's the only one you'll see like that as that area is going to be where the new water outlets will be. Not a lot of clear exterior area for branding! Met with the shop yesterday that will be doing the automotive end of the machining. He didn't see any obvious issues which was good news. I should have some rough pricing soon. I'm waiting for cam core prices. That will give you a more complete picture. So the next step is to make a plastic mockup of the head. I'll machine it as far as I need to to feel comfortable with the strategy. Which at this point will be most of the way. The worst part is I only have one 4th axis and it's making money for the next few days so I'm on severe hold I hate when work gets in the way of fun.

I believe you are correct. Tony pointed this out to me but it was too late in the process as the molds were already printed. Version 2 will have access to the water jacket above each exhaust port. If you want to get to it you mill through the head. This way if you have a high heat turbo build you can exit the water at each port tied to a single tube with thermostat. Personally I won't need it for my NA build but it will be there for those that need it. The OS Giken is this way. Yea that would suck. I thought about that a few times. I hope they are actually getting the backup service now.