Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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F1? Like the 1785HP engines in the 1.5 liter formula in the early 80's?
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Define 'maximize the potential'? As well as 'lively' cam, and 'medium-high compression ratio'...
Some people would insist the only thing that would fit the bill with that phrase would be nothing less than 55 DCOE Webers.
Crappy definitions of performance goals result in discussions like this.
My point originally being, the stated example provided by John C is a 2.4 running at 8000rpms (what is the CFM Requirement there when making 240HP???? All I did was suggest people use their HEADS and do the calculations for what has ALREADY BEEN SHOWN as possible, and not rely on a 50 year old application chart or other STOCK example of under-carburettion or massive overcarbing for 'maximization' which would make a miserable street engine.
I can't count how many 3, 3.1, and 3.2 engines I've worked with, seen, or known built which work PERFECTLY FINE with SU's. Are they bolted on straight out of the junkyard? Hardly. When you got a couple grand in the engine, why slap junkyard parts on it and run it?
I just found it humorous (and now by extension somewhat sad) that people didn't heed the question and blindly followed recommendation charts and postulated it would somehow restrict the airflow on the larger engine. Exactly how high is this 3.X going to rev? Obviously they CAN support 240 HP in the real world, not on a piece of paper, or from a conservative engineering application data sheet.
We had an engineer do many calculations on his 3.0 thinking three SU's were the way to go because the stockers are undersized... Ultimately due to the way they work (Constant Velocity) adding more carbs is somewhat counter intuitive and counter productive. In reality to do a three-carb setup the 38mm SU's are what is called for airflow wise to keep proper velocity through them under most driving conditions.
SU's are NOT PHH Mikunis, DCOE Webers, or DHLA Dellortos... The flow bridge is a BIG hole and it's VARIABLE. A Bigger engine may draw slightly higher vacuum at full load, peak torque or rpm... but how often are you there on the street engine (as stated by John in the first go-round)?
Ultimately a lot of this stuff is more solely for LOOKS than a requirement from a performance standpoint. So that starts going down the Rice Road. Fine, it's your car do what you want. But insofar as people postulating that a pair of Twin 46 or 47 Hitachi SU's are somehow a major limiting factor or something that will 'strangle performance'---that's ludicrous!
Sure, for all-out racing you can run 2" units and get marginal performance improvement---at what cost? In the real world, the airflow provided WILL NOT seriously be impacted by running the stock carbs, you simply need to spend some time outside the paradigm of bolting on a Holley and running it to be rewarded with maximum reward possible.
You can get 80HP from an L24, and the same exact combination of parts can give you 120HP, 175HP or even more. The guy with the 80HP setup will SWEAR you NEED triples to get 175 from that engine, along with a Cam, porting, polishing, etc etc etc...
The guy with 175 says: "Uh, no you don't. It's a matter of tuning."
Referring to the question in the original post:
"Can the SU deliver the additional volume of air for the increased displacement? Does the SU have that much "headroom" so to speak?
The SM will certainly deliver more fuel at a higher RPM but can the SU provide the air? There's certainly a volumetric max for any carburetor design....."
In this instance the answers are, Yes (reference L2.4 8000 rpm vs 3.1 6500 is a 19% Larger vs 23% proposition--5% difference? Is 4% going to make any difference?) Yes, and Yes.
To address the volumetric max on a STANDARD carb, you size for 9" HG at WOT Peak Torque RPM+. On an SU, this is a matter of the bridge. This point could be (and generally is) occurring with the Suction Dome at various places at different times. It's not a fixed venturi carb. It changes, and that change is EXACTLY why it is not an issue in this application.
Note there are 1.75" and/or 2" duals on 3.5L V-8's as well. If they can fuel that at 4500rpms.... See where this is going?
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I often rebuild items without the parts being prepared beforehand. Take what you will from it man, leave your inference attitude behind.
Line boring doesn't happen without first making them undersized, unless you have oversized journals. Never.
But line boring doesn't become an option until MEASUREMENT occurs first.
Throwing parts at something isn't necessarily the option that should be entertained when a solely subjective, superficial analysis of the condition is all that exists. Like I said, take what you will from it, you choose to be offended, so be it---it's your issue not mine.
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That's what frequent flyer miles are for! And Holiday Inn points!
I about crapped myself when I found out the Convention Center for Nostalgia 2-Days was host to the Intercontinental... "Mr Okamura, we could have stayed HERE, and had a place to drag everything!" Oh no, Tony-San, VERY expensive!
"No, it's only 15,000 points a night. I got 861,000 points, we BOTH could have had some nice rooms and at most paid nothing more than $40 a night! Even YOUR boss would have signed off on that expense report!"
The look on his face was:
REALLY?Like if I'd had advance notice...maaaaaaaaaaaan!
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Some are the old head, most of the new setup... see attachments... I figure there will be mad downloading. I'm tired, milked-udder tired and it's time for me to go sleepy. I won't upload the closeup geek crap, these attached photos should be good enough for most people.
At the entrance, go to the right conference hall or you were in Anime Convention with a million girls dressed like Hentai, or an Ikebana Convention with withered old ladies who's faces looked like withered sweet potatoes!
Satisfied to find the booth...
Happy to be this close!
And the S-20 Version:
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Built enough of them. They work just fine. Caveats John C gave were SPOT ON!
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I wouldn't have turned down the goddamned offer for the 432 to swap even-steven for my 73 240Z without a driveline!
I could sell it now, buy a restored Z-Program car, and make two or three different run of the mill Hybrid Z's!
<EDIT> I just realized I could sell it, PAY OFF MY HOUSE, and make three or four run of the mill Hybrid Z's in another scenario... Cut two of the run of the mill Hybrids out, and I'd have a tropical vacation home for the money as well as no mortgage.
Turned it down at $3200 and instead bought a 75 Fairlady Z for $2400. Later, after getting a US Market Z, the same car was offered to me as an even trade.
That mistake will not happen a THIRD TIME should the opportunity present itself!
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Once the alternator flashes, it maintains the voltage. What did you do to the sensing line and did you get the field flash wiring correct at the regulator plug with diode and jumpers?
Mine did that when the regulator was still connected. After I removed it and installed the diode/jumpers it was hunky dory.
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Osaka, darn, I just flew out of KIX on Friday!
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O.K., Line bore them and see what you get without installing inserts or welding them undersize.
getoffmyinternet, direct the man to the supplier of the cams with the oversized cam bearing journals to utilize in the line bored towers (simply bored oversize WITHOUT measuring...
I'm sure all the racers will like this option as well, as then they can have 0.010, 0.020, 0.030, or 0.040" more lift at the cam from these oversized journals! Where has this technology been all these years, simple line boring oversize to get a bigger lift cam in the housings. Cool beans!
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Make sure to check the dimensions from pivot center to tip, and effective rocker ratio from pivot to wiping pad start and finish.
If they are mixy-matchy, you could have several different rocker ratios on your engine and never know it.
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Yes, indeed we should follow the charts, they mesh well with the actual world testing and example as evidenced by John's Post.
If you are relying on a chart, then yes, that is not tuning a carb. So I'd say yes then if that is the point you want to press.
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Btw, with an Andriod Tablet and Smart Bro or Globe Tattoo SIM you can get 3G link in most places in the PI you wouldn't think possible. Better in Thailand on AIS or TRUE, but it keeps you connected at least.
Both are DIRT CHEAP compared to any global roaming plan (hell, I send global texts back in the USA till my AIS SIM runs out because their global roaming costs ate cheaper per SMS or MMS than my AT&T domestic plan!!!)
Not that I log on all that much after-hours in either Thailand or the PI!!!
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Did you make it to Jaguar, Mango Red Lips, Julian'as, Stripes, or Arena KTV whilst in Cebu?
I took two good Indonesian engineers to the gates of hell there once a few years ago: "Mr. Tony, we CAN NOT go inside!!!" hehheheheh! The only snorkelling with them was in the ocean that trip!
LOL
Guess I missed you, made a run to Shenzhen Friday last, and then went to Japan for a week before heading to Bangkok. Where I'll be for the next two weeks!
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Agreed, not running $5~600 tops, running add $1000 if complete and not terribly beat.
Nice driveline donor if nothing else!
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NOW is going to have you arrested for spousal abuse.
Take your wife and run someplace warm and hide till sanity comes to the feminist establishment (despite the independence and fortitude displayed by wifey-poo!)
Mine changed the clutch cable on the Suzuki Jeep after classes using only a needle-nosed vice grips. Twice...
They're like that when young.
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Electrical THEORY is fine until you deal with the real world where things are designed with nominal operating voltages in mind to generate heat specific to a process.
The reasons for a voltage regulator and board operations in the ECU being done at 5VDC is they keep things constant even with a low battery. Start dropping voltage on those circuits and see how long they last.
Same for simple incandescents and higher voltages, higher voltages shorter life.
For halogens they drop off on both ends of the spectrum, but worse on the low end due to less/no halogen recycle going on...
But KEY to my statement (which neither of you obviously read) was the phrase TO KEEP THE SAME OUTPUT. unintentionally you confirmed EXACTLY what I said under the guise that you were doing the opposite.
I thank you both.
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It's funny how after John C posted an actual example of SU's obviously flowing more than sufficient air people continued with the bolt on parts parade posts.
Might I suggest the limitations of all the posters were due to their inexperience and inability to tune SU's properly and not due to any inherent "lack of airflow ability"---someone mentioned 30% larger engine, did anybody do the math on John C's example twisting to 8K instead if only 6500, and making 240HP instead if only 150?
Lack if airflow?
I think not.
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Delta only works the wearing areas, they font race prep them.
Get a Dremmel, the "How to Modify" book, and have at it, it's not rocket science. Also check the sticky on the subject I think Miles (Dragonfly) posted it.
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Try Harmonic Balancer, ATI, or BHJ in your search criterion...
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Paeco, Birmingham Alabama.
Snap gauges and digital caliper under $30 shipped to your door from Harbor Freight.
Good luck on your alignment, you only have to be "close enough" for it to work. This seems acceptable to you from the posts thusfar. Hammer, spanners, and a cam is all you need to do that.
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Yes, they insure DRIVING cars, not collectable or classic cars.
At the minimum get a stated value policy and you will pay accordingly as any other car of similar value (Y2K Frontier worth 7k, over 1100 per year in daily driver status.)
I changed to a stated value policy through Haggerty with values of 7, 7, 10, 10 on the two Z's and two VW Busses I own and as "pleasure vehicles" which is how Haggerty
Classifies them, the bill wasn't anywhere near what the Frontier was costing! My two "conventional" policies through AAA are even more than they are, for a 260 Z beater Turd Mobile, and my 1990 Chevy Dually. $350 annually. And the trick there is NEITHER of them is classified a daily commuter, either! I explained I only spent 115 days in the USA last year, and rotating driving amongst EVERY vehicle daily can only possibly result in X miles being driven. Considering many if them are WEEKEND days where I'm driving"for pleasure" they decided to underwrite the policy as all pleasure. In reality, each of the vehicles gets just under 7,000 miles a year by MY driving. Now.... If I was in the country more... I'd be screwed!
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Flights to Haneda are cheap this time of year. You can get restricted nonrefundables for under $800. do it inconjunction with the Oadiba Swap Meet or other event near the airport and your transportation costs are minimal. Have him rent a van through MWR for the time you're there.
Petrol is currently ¥140~153/L exchange rate 74.02 as of Friday. Set up a bank wire ahead of time so when you spend your legal carry on cash, you can get more sent (or better yet still, have it waiting for you when you arrive!!!)
Had I done the latter, my opportunity at Nostalgia 2Days would have been FAR more fruitful!
Next step: engaging a shipping company to crate and ship my booty homeward via sea freight. 1.5m X 1.5m X 2.5m crate runs about $500 to ship to LA, I would assume similar to Bayonne or Buffalo. Cost of the actual crate varies and can be as much as the shipping.
But if you happen to have a company sending large parts to the country in reusable crates and have access to them after their cargo is used... Well, you don't pay for the crate!
Making a list, checking it twice.
Gonna buy stuff that's really really nice!
Tony D is coming to town!
LOL
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was that with stock injectors?? how much boost can the 260cc's handle
And thus it begins..
Why SUs will work well on a Stroker?
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted
Once again, John C distills the discussion eloquently...
The question was NOT "best setup" -- the question was "will these work admirably"?
That answer is yes.
Anybody arguing that three SU's or larger units are required needs to hop a plane to Charlotte and make an appointment to go for a 12 second ride in Norm Siempers STROKER 240Z. You want to talk BUDGET BUILD that car personifies it. And yeah you could say Norm's car "pulls to 6500"...scratch that, 7000...+!!!