Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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"So you've assembled 5 engines..."
Indeed, riscard, then why on earth if you have done this is the concept of an engine turning over with a twist of the hand such a foreign concept to you? And why express such disbelief of it's possibility?
This needs to be in another thread. And you should probably read less and do more.
To the OP's most recent question: were the pistons removed from the rods? Are the notches in the pistons all facing the way they should be... The rods all should be the same way. Same for directional notches on the pistons. It is possible if you had the pistons pressed on by a shop they did one backwards--which they now must remedy. The caps ... Were they resized?
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LA Billet Crank - yes, it has been covered.
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I have a ratcrap 260Z I bought at police auction for $125.
I live in SoCal.
I drove to ABQ for the 95 (?) Convention, about 5,000 miles in two weeks of road time.
I drove to Great Canadian Zedaway in Kingston Ontario Canada, roughly 18,000 miles in three weeks of road time (no, I did not take the most direct route... personal best day was from some godforsaken roadside stop west of the Platte River in Nebraska, to Grand Rapids Michigan -- 1100 miles in a day's driving, roughly 11 hours start to stop...including waiting in traffic for 45 minutes going into Gary ID to pay a 28 cent toll to leave the miserable state of Illinois.)
I drove to the Houston Convention, through the Atlantic SE, up the Blue Ridge Parkway, through Michigan, and back--roughly 15,000 miles in three weeks of road time.
On the Houston trip, since my wife was co-pilot, instead of driving for 18 hours a day and sleeping by the roadside... the car was run 24 hours daily stopping only for gasoline and restroom breaks which averaged 20 minutes (to fill the cars tank, and drain ours...)
On the Zedaway, I was the only driver, and we would drive 16-18 hours a day on the highway at 80 or so mph (er...or higher...) stopping when necessary (about every 240 miles) for fueling which took roughly 20 minutes.
From that above list, you can figure out my average speed across Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois and into Grand Rapids. Like it or not, every 240 miles you stop to get gas and that takes time.
So you want to know what broke?
First trip to ABQ, pulled off at a station in Arizona and got bad gas. Clogged the fuel filter, and it's replacement, and it's replacement's replacement with fine red desert clay. And the diode leads melted off the alternator... And the Smog Pump seized leaving the belt in the middle of I40 on fire...
Trip to Canada, I provisioned everything so the back of the car was PACKED. Had spares of everything. Nothing broke.
Trip to Houston, put all Paranoia Spares on a trailer (the way to go) so when we arrived we chained the trailer to a light post at the hotel and drove free and unencumbered. Ran into the back of a Toyota Pickup. Cut the fan blades with a knife to clearance the radiator, Drove on. Found seepage of coolant from the radiator in NC. Added Aluma-Seal, running to this day. Spent a few minutes in Michigan with a chain and an oak tree to pull the right bucket and light back to somewhat proper alignment. Looks OK, but is actually about 1/8" shorter on that side than the other. Final pull to be done some time in the future at a proper body shop. During the 24 hour driving, the synchro on 5th started acting up (high mileage used tranny) and popping out of gear. Bungeed it the rest of the way home. This MAY have had something to do with the fact of dragging an 800# trailer 15,000 miles at speeds of 80-100mph in fifth. It's kind of severe duty...
You read this far, I'll tackle lights:
The ABQ and Canada runs had four aux lights on the front of the car. Along with 55/100 H4 Euro Headlights. The aux lamps light up the roadway a bit, but the BEST thing they were for was attracting gravel and brush and subsequently breaking off the car. But good relay kit on the high wattage H4's with a combined HI/LOW ILLUMINATION JUMPER) give you just as good visibility, if not better IMO (this means when you flick high beams, the LO Beams STAY ILLUMINATED--some Euro Porsches did this...VERY nice!)
Do it with RELAY KIT, HI/LO Jumper, and 55/100 H4 Euro Bulbs and you will be happy. And it will be under $150 for the whole lighting equation.
MATTER OF FACT, the H4 Lights I installed back in 1995 for the ABQ run JUST burned out their low beams last year. I complained to the supplier bitterly. He (not joking here!) replaced the bulbs for free!!!
So this is not the story of a ZX, but other than the L26 in the car, the tranny and the 3.7 rear gear came from a ZX...does that still count?
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"some black smoke" on an UNCATALYZED z means low 10:1 or even high 9:1 AFR --- seriously off. But generally this is a sensor or electronic issue.
You're way jumping the gun heading to fuel pressure off the bat IMO!!!
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PMC has ONCE AGAIN proven and pointed out the disconnect riscard has, and why he won't get it no matter how hard anybody tries.
No matter how much you codify, or try to codify this process unless you do it for EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT USED IN THE PROCESS it will not work.
ONE variable off, and it doesn't work. Then where's your logic flowchart to find where the problem lies.
Riscard foolishly believes if you control SOME aspects of the process you will arrive at the result desired. You will not. You must ALWAYS check and recheck components. You can, as PMC pointed out have straight bores, but defective compoentry that measures correctly... But had an imperfection that does not evidence itself until assembly.
When the engine is put together on the Nissan Assembly Line, ALL ASPECTS of the assembly are controlled. THERE is the ONLY PLACE you can engineer in consistency.
After that, in the field.... It's art. Unfortunately there are far too many engineers like riscard sitting in offices thinking field conditions mirror an assembly line environment. They do not. The only thing I can say is, if it were not art, and only science every single engine builder out there would take components and assemble engines ONCE. there would be no trial fitting because everything is measured and confirmed beforehand.
Yet not a SINGLE engine builder of performance engines on ANY level of competition (including F1, where arguably it's all science!) doesn't do a trial assembly to check for glitches that can not be determined by measurement.
No disrespect here, but it simply looks to me that riscard simply hasnt assembled that many engines to have these truths revealed in good order.
As PMC (paraphrased) said: "your best tool is your own eyes"
Remember this started as a contention that crank friction was more than rings, and that valvetrain was not the frictional drain in the L-Engine.
I think that has been answered, we should stop muddying the thread, and have this proper assembly of engines moved to a different thread.
I think it's been shown now from several aspects that if there is friction in the bottom end, something was dine wrong in assembly.
Talking with a former Ford Corporate wonk, his comment was that a V-8 crank, with both seals and even 1 or 2 psi of oil film supplied to it should "Spin freely to a stop dependent on the lip seal friction present-the crank should be on oil film and present no appreciable friction loadings when lubricated." for dry spinning he said "pinky on 3/8" ratchet" and with pistons and rings "no more that two fingers on the same ratchet"... So it's the same for domestic V8's as well. I thought as much.
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Oh yeah, I had just changed my Star Tac for a new Nokia... This was Y2K or just before. I just smiled watching his front end rip off..."expensive lesson" made even more expensive because he just wouldn't accept ant of his fault. Lots of people like that in OC...sad...
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Thanks PMC, this is all "straight from the book", the Datsun bearing shells were available in various backshell thicknesses of EXACTLY the reasons mentioned.
It's good to see some others interested in the "art" of engine building, rather than mere "assembly"! Many pooh poohed the "Industrial Arts" wing of high school thinking it was for the losers who couldn't hack it in the AP Classes and "needed" to work with their hands. Lots of disrespect for the ART that is endemic to mechanical work.
FAR too many people see it simply as something that can be codified, annotated, abbreviated, and replicated "by any trained monkey"--these are the same ones who don't like long answers because they are "un-necessary and overly complex, this is a simple procedure!"
There is Art in all aspects of life. If you cultivate the art, indeed it's simple to get good results. If you view it as mere assembly work, you will remain amazed when you see it done properly.
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Got to agree, 738RWHP at under 25PSI on a 3.0 (single turbo, BTW.) I don't see the point when the Z31 was designed to run an RB meaning all the swap parts are available from Nissan to do an RB30. On a third front the ability to make a 3.4 Liter VG is child's play and which will easily make the reliable HP desired...
You should probably go back and reassess what you thought you knew. You got a LOT of misconceptions about what you "think" you need. Basically I'm parroting what John C is saying. I'm just adding the "Why" because your assumptions about V-Configurations are WAY off-base!
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Same truck, same hitch, guy prangs me on the 215 in stopped commuter backup by the 60 merge. Get out, guy has DRIVEAWAY PLATES from Raceway Ford, which is still in view and is saying "My wife is going to KILL ME!" got a nice round hole in the bumper fascia. I look at him (empathetically) and say " By the time you get out of this you can get on Box Springs and take it back... Ask them WTF they were trying to pull and you didnt notice it but YOUR WIFE DID WHEN YOU GOT HOME!"
Guy went from glum to glee and with that "Eureka!" look on his face now goes "Yeaaaah!" THANKS ME, and waves with a big smile when we separate as he is getting off at Box Springs!
Good to know yours wasn't like either of these incidents. It looks bad, but I've driven one now for 15+ years that got hit worse and just had an Oak Tree, Chain, and a few tugs to get the rad to clear the fan! Some sheetmetal, some paint and a few tugs (maybe) and you're on the road looking good as before!
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"some sort of verticalbar on it"=Class 3 Drop Hitch
I always run with mine installed. Poked more than one front end. Best one was the Mercedes SLK that when I felt the "nudge" (in my within 800# of max GVWR Superduty) I knew I was hit HARD: looked back to see a guy on his mobile phone with bog, shocked eyes mouthing "oh ship" or something similar. But he didn't hang up... I walked back to seer hitch centerpunching hit Tri-Point. He was STILL on the phone, saying something animatedly to the other party in the conversation about "I don't know why he was just stopped in the middle of the road!" (The big red light kinda commanded my actions, if not the semi-truck cross traffic...) he looks at me and says to the phone "I gotta go!" hangs up then starts yelling at ME! I asked him if he wanted a permanent Ford Hood Ornament or if we should separate the cars. He's freaking, but says "pull your f... Piece of s... Garden truck off my car!" I am amused slightly and say--"why don't you back up instead, your car is still running, I can jump the bumper if it's stuck!" so he gets in backs up, and successfully tears out most of his grille and detaches on three points an undoubtedly expensive A/C Condensor Assembly. There is "crunching and snapping" involved... He gets back out and now REALLY FREAKS, gets downright abusive and says he's going to sue me. It was at that point I decided to leave. He demanded my information... Wasn't going to happen. "Dude, you PILED into me while i was stopped at a light and you were talking on the phone. Its guys like you that will get laws passed so we cant use our phones while driving! I'm outta here, this is YOUR baby and YOUR insurance problem!" (Prophetically my statement came true...) He chased me up the 55 FWY until steam started pouring out from his hood.
So it COULD'VE been worse! LOL
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But to play devil's advocate here, I'm 99% sure when these motors were originally built wipe patterns weren't checked. Granted, all components had to be QC'ed and made sure they were within spec before assembly.
During assembly at the factory the machining tolerances were taken to five places to the right in millimetres on precision Mitsui Seiki Machining Centers as a result of Demming-Inspired SPC assembly standards. Because of the insanely-tight (compared to comparable production US Machining Practices at the time) manufacturing tolerances MAINTAINED the wipe pattern could be ENGINEERED INTO the assembly. Have you EVER removed original stock lash pads? They are all the same size. They had a manufacturing process operating within statical control and as-such di not require a check.
The wiping of the lash pad is a Field Service Procedure as variability in valve seat machining by non-OEM production machinery is not guaranteed. A machinist might be sloppy. That is why they have you check.
To illustrate the tolerances issue endemic at the time Ford had a 50% failure rate on (i think) C6 transmissions one year in the late 70's. When Dearborn investigated, they found they had two vendors: normal chain, and about 50% farmed to JATCO. on examination, they found there were NO failures of the JATCO-Supplied units, and a 100% failure rate on the normal supply chain vendor units.
They disassembled the normal units, and found everything was "within specification"- yet they failed.
They pulled in some JATCO units and when disassembled they didn't find things "within specification" they found them spot-on "nominal" Transmission to Transmission the components were measured to be EXACTLY the same. There was NO range of deviation. They were, using the measuring tools available to Ford at the time, the same, identical. JATCO supplied documents showing variability in metric equivalents out in the fourth and fifth decimal place. Ford was going four places right using INCHES (1/10,000 of an inch!) this was a stated reason for Ford being one of the first manufacturers to adopt SPC in the Demming Method in the USA during that time period.
It all goes to standards of machining and variability in the process. It may "Work", but...
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Tony D:
How many engines, which have been aftermarket machined, have you assembled to specifications and found "will freewheel spin given a stout turn on the drive flange if you have a strong enough grip"? Just forget about an assembled LONG BLOCK. Just working with the short block wherein the only friction is the Crank Bearings and piston rings.
What are the typical clearances for Crankshaft Main and Rod Bearings?
I personally have done half a dozen L6's and the L4's are a given.
SBC Chevy? I've not done one to this level, I don't know. Infinity IRL 3500 V8? Didn't think to try... VW Type 1? Without pushrods, yes as well.
The question remains as to "what clearances" and what definition you give to "aftermarket machined"?
How many people here know how to check for a bent crank?
Bearing clearance concentricity check ASSEMBLED bore-to-bore?
People "Assemble" things all the time and they "Work Fine" as always this goes back to a definition of "Works"!
Some people are more meticulous than others. If your crank doesn't freewheel several revolutions in the mains once assembled before putting rods on---you need to go back and check more closely! Something isn't right.
Will it "Work"? Sure. Is it right? Depends on your preparation standards.
FYI: The OSG TC24B-1Z on display at Nostalgia 2-Days recently was EASILY turned by a damper placed on the crank snout till compression built up. Even I was surprised, they claim 400+ out of that engine and it uses timing GEARS... so maybe it's in preparation standards that people are comfortable or accustomed to that is the root of this tangential discussion.
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Sheepskin Belt Cozy (REAAA AAA AAAL Sheepskin, not that synthetic crap!)
I love the feeling of a sheep nuzzling my neck...
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I believe someone else spoke of valve spring pressure...
riscard assuming far too much. Bearing drag in a properly (there we go again) engine --- for instance the crankshaft --- it will freewheel spin given a stout turn on the drive flange if you have a strong enough grip. SUUUURE you can assemble an engine tight as a frogs arse, you aren't going to make power either. That engine is wasting power to overcome friction. Hence the qualifier "properly assembled"...
I have had engines that turn over by hand---does John mean fingertips on the crank pulley or a thumb and forefinger on the ring gear? Or a single finger across the ring gear? Rotational friction is a matter of proper assembly lube, proper clearances, and proper insertion of the ring and piston pack.
But to say the tension of the rings in ANY way comes close to the forces present by the valve springs pushing up against the cam is ludicrous-especially with low-tension racing rings. The friction of the valvetrain is considerable, to turn the cam in a spring dyno generally requires at least a 5HP, if not 20HP electric drive motor!
The difference between a short block and a block with the valve train being actuated is significant and easily quantified. Put your torque arm on the crankshaft nut, and turn it over on a short block using a digital hanging scale...you can calculate ft-lbs if you measure correctly. Then put the top end on and try it again. Interpolation from that point is easy.
You are going to be surprised at the result. Most properly assembled bottom ends will, if given a stout turn continue spinning for a short bit. Put that valve train on there, and not only does turning torque go up considerably you don't have that 'freewheel' for 8-10mm up bore like you did previously.
The last bastion of frictional reduction in the L-Engine is the valve train. Not many have gone after that parasite. Malvern tried with good results but died before mass production became a reality. All the rest is simply assembly tolerances and lubricant.
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Three Phase power? Leads to other motor from junction box were switched in the move.
The answer was an electrical swap of to phase lead wires out of the junction box, not a mechanical movement of the motor! Put the motor back in original position, change leads on it till operating in correct direction--synchronous to the opposite side.
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You want "power drain" reduction in that subsystem...
Look to sliding friction of cam live on rocker and valve spring weights.
Roller Rockers free 20+ HP but is hard to quantify empirically due to using different cam profiles.
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Randy has it: it's for the loss of cam timing and maladies related to that not friction reduction.
Lacking your engine specs/intended use and your statement of "justification of costs " likelihood is high your engine will not be in sufficient tune where it will require the device, unless as Ranfy stated...you milled a mile off the head.
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iPhone keypad sux
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As for PCV/brake booster I think that was answered on page one... But it's bee my setup since my original vacuum tubing array in 1985...
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IOW: 1/8 BSP or one of the 1/8 NPT...
but forgive me, I don't recall which, I put my log on in 1991, and don't remember if I ran a tap down it. I doubt I did since the stick plugs were probably easily matched at a place with the barbed fittings.
I have taps this size laying around, I don't see it as a major workstep to run a tap through them (even to clean out sealant residue) so insignificant is the effort involved it has slipped from my mind over the past 21 years.
There, does THAT explain my response to the question "do anybody know the thread size of the ports"? It seems more polite than "what does it matter, you're running a tap down them for cleanup anyway, use the right tap the three sizes possible are so close it will be what you need by the time you finish."
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Oh, and while life is funny sometimes, I'm not laughing a lot of late!
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Oh, and I don't know what the hell that question had to do with the subject line, of which I read the misleading eye-drawer to simply say "hell yes!"
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I got corporate MBA'd...not 30 days later they called my old boss asking if they knew anybody who could do training on all our product, as well as competitive machines. "Sure, he knows it all...you had me LAY HIM OFF LAST MONTH!"
I regularly get calls from them asking to come back. My answer is always the same "Send me a written offer of contract with all remuneration specifics and we will talk..." Seems they always are fishing...but never want to bait that hook.
Screw them. Of the guys laid off, I was the one smart enough to dictate the time and place, and got it at a Spires Coffee Shop...that way I got a meal out of it. The other guys were told to report to the local distributor and were axed over the phone with the local manager there to take their corporate AMEX and truck keys.
Corporations are idiot factories. Just remember that as your business grows and strive not to make the same stupid mistakes.
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I believe I used 1/8NPT on mine, but I may have retapped them...it was a while ago. Like 1991.
Farthest driven,Longest road trip anyone's done?
in S130 Series - 280ZX
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Stock 240/260Z tank. This will return a fillup anywhere from 9-12 gallons to fill depending on speed average. I did not break below 20mpg with SU's until the Nebraska sprint where I averaged 19&change for those tanks. Below 100mph average speed, it was 22 or thereabouts. Below 80, it started going up more, peaking at 27mpg through Wisconsin where I stayed in 5th and never exceeded 65, averaging closer to 55-60mph.
Stock 260Z, Four Screw SU's, Early 5sp, 3.70 R180 out back. Mileage was for all intents identical with a late ZX box in there, except for 55-60 driving in WI I would spend much more time in 4th.
I now put a vacuum gauge back in to monitor some other observations.
I would expect with the same 2gallon reserve cushion in a ZX having like a 20 or 22 gallon tank your mileage covered could be 100 or more miles simply from elimination of one or two fuel stops minimum, per day! 360-400 miles is what I would expect in one of them.
For me, that LD28 and the 32 gallon Factory S30 Rally Tank appeals to me for longer drives. I could literally drive nonstop for 1100 miles before fueling! The exhaust aspirator will handle the human drainage requirements as proven on previous trips ("Tony, your car is smoking really bad up this hill" -- "DO NOT DRIVE THROUGH THE SMOKE! STAY IN THE OTHER LANE!!!")