Tony D

leaking core plug at the back of the block is a possibility indeed! If one is gone, others are soon to follow... That one in particular is kinda PITA to service, aluma-seal is your friend in this case...

Indeed this is a tragic story if storage insurance or a renters goods rider was not inforce---that would at least cover you enough to not worry about the one on which you still owe money. You secretly hope they break their necks doing something stupid on them...but then you realize their next of kin would probably sue you for them breaking their necks on the ATV's they stole from ya... I don't like theives. P.S. Please revise the typeface/font in the O.P. on my screen at least it's all run together and almost impossible to read.

Been done. Check out Patton Machine for GM TBI Injector-into-SU Body adapters. Rick Patton's Page There is a gent in france using custom flashed GM ECU with the Patton Adapters to great effect. Good Luck with the conversion. For the cost, the Patton Pieces make the conversion so much easier than adapting the bulky stock GM Bodies---all you really want is the injector...right?

That header flange appears to be the same flange all the JDM headers use. Ends about where the engine/trans junction is, just like the Z432 Header it's patterned after. Most of the exhausts in Japan are 'universal'---that is they all have a standard header flange location. So you can use Brand X Header with whomevers exhaust. Notable exception are some of the very high-end stuff where they don't fit on LHD's due to primary length, and not coming down to the "Nissan OE Style Twin Pipe Flange"... My Trust/Greddy Exhaust fit my Trust Header, my OS Header, my Stainless Header... they were all the same. The only oddball I have is a Fujitsubo Racing Header that comes down to twin 60mm pipes---a bit larger than the standard 50mm pipe used on most dual systems. Then again, the 432 had twin 60mm pipes as well from what I'm told. 2L @ 10,000 rpms flows I guess!

"A fan shroud is just as important as high CFM flow. Every moden car has a good shroud. " This isn't a modern car is it? This is a car that was designed with a shroud, and marketed without it. One which had a 160F thermostat avaialble for it. As much as you want to insist that you MUST use a shroud, common sense says 'no, you don't unless your flow is marginal.' And now we have come full circle. If you have enough flow, you won't NEED a shroud. All the new cars come with ABS and Airbags as well, do I NEED those ALSO? If you want to engineer down to the nth degree and have ONLY that which you NEED...then when you go outside the parameters of design you're screwed and overheat! The radiator on a stock Z is oversized. There is excess capacity. If you three or four core it then there is MASSIVE overcapacity on the heat rejection side of the equation. Sure, then lets undersize the fan, put a shroud on it to boost transfer efficiency....and as long as it never gets hot outside you're cool. I wonder why the Taurus Fan used two speeds...

You make a statement prematurely, before talking to Ron. That conversation can take 10 minutes, or an hour and 58 minutes... Cam card specifications are usually the only indication to tell you if it's installed correctly, I haven't bought one cam for a Datsun yet that did not come with that same cam card. Each person or grinder has they way they want it set up. This is from familiarity to them, and obfuscates the direct comparison with other manufacturers. If they use their own standards, then their marketing can say what they want. If everybody used the same specification, they would actually have to compete on performance or explain why their specs make more power than someone elses... There's enough theft of ideas going on in that arena now, no need to make it easier! Like Frank found out on his last visit while talking to Ron: There's plenty of stuff that is NOT in the catalog. As Ron says "Don't bother with those, we have plenty of stuff bigger! Do you have a problem cutting your pistons for valve clearance?"

That's seriously full of misinformaion. You CAN legally import vehicles, providing they meet or you can prove they meet federal standards. On vehicles older than XX years, this doesn't even apply! Right-Hand-Drive vehicles are legal in EVERY state of the union, I don't know where 'california is one of the sattes where it is still legal'---it's legal in every one! And CARB standards? You're kinda shooting in the wind there, it's an import and would be smogged as a federal vehicle. Not that hard, really. Now, no argument about nannystate crap. I find it totally incongruous that I can legally drive a 1966 VW Beetle, yet can not import basically the exact same vehicle from Mexico back in 2003 for only $6350 US. "It doesn't comply with current safety and emissions standards"--So true, but it FAR SURPASSES the 66 Beetle I can LEGALLY DRIVE HERE! The people who imported Skylines...well they tried a fast one to get around the laws and a lot of them arrogantly said things to me like 'when was the last time you saw the federal government come after an individual who imported a car to the USA?' I'm the one laughing now with the 'I toldja so' look in my eyes. Everybody thought they would get around the laws saying 'oh, it's OHV or for racing only or display only' and spent the money to bring them in...and it CLEARLY states in the law that this limits them to 1 year of occupancy. I guess they figured after a year they would be scot-free... imagine that, BEING HELD TO THE LAW! Tried to pull a fast one, and got caught. Let me cry in my beer... Sad thing is because of the unethical widespread fraudulent importation of these vehicles, they simply have been blacklisted and are now ILLEGAL to import. Onsies-Twosies would have been fine, but someone got greedy and tried mass importation, didn't comply...played fast and loose with the regulations and now they got burned and we all pay the cost! Find a 1972 Skyline and Import it. You will be AMAZED how easy it is to do now compared to 20 years ago!

And core plugs on the block... It's the reason Miroux Motorsports (BE) keeps their paddock doors closed during Spa the last three years running. Seems they insisted their 'F54' late core-plugged block with an N42 head was an L24 and totally prepared in accordance with FIA Group4 rules... They did not like this random Yank asking questions. Coming down the front stretch past the old F1 Paddock into Eau Rouge I'm here to tell ya: It AIN'T no L24 turning those times (2:55 or less!) Not at that RPM at that point on the track! But Lazeum is right...most guys you run across won't know the difference. And I don't get to Denmark sooo...

I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying the amount you are fretting over isn't significant: if the lower tank is 100F, WHO CARES HOW MUCH BYPASSES? That's like fretting over every virgin not having an ideal first sex encounter. No matter how hard you try, it just ain't happening! A shroud will only make "All the water" marginally cool---ending in the same result. Please think of this logically and not emotionally. You will recall in the cast iron manifold debate, my scales said differently and that the tubular header I had WAS indeed heavier than the cast iron manifold! You're right, this is heading down that same path: someone asked a question and you aren't answering it, you're just harping on minutae that is immaterial. If the BOTTOM TANK TEMPERATURE is 100F on a 12" 5500CFM fan and no shroud... And the BOTTOM TANK TEMPERATURE is 100F on a 16" 4000CFM fan WITH a shroud... I guess your contention is that 'The 16" Fan with a Shroud is BEST' for the application then? Tsk Tsk Tsk... All I have ever said is that the 12" fan WORKS, provides the SAME RESULT, and therefore IS TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE. If you want to be pedantic and INSIST that someone put a fan shroud on it to boost ALREADY ACCEPTABLE EFFICIENCY...well, go for it. I see it as foolish adding of components after the goal has been reached. The first S30's had a shroud, they ALSO had a radiator with marginal heat rejection. They ALSO had the shroud DELETED and functioned JUST FINE in a MAJORITY of the market. Before you invoke history, please recall it all...

In Turn: "Well... I just don't understand this logic. Poor shrouding just means hot water goes straight through and into the outlet tank." And as long as the bottom tank's temperature is of adequate 'coolness' so that the temperature rise of the engine does not result in a runaway situation, then it's acceptable. Split a hair if you like, but it IS possible that a fan operating in one portion of the radiator will cool the liquid below a point needed for that point---if hot water bypasses it...so what? The end result in the tank for pumping into the engine is what matters. One could say it's all that matters! "If the radiator is too big then get a smaller one." I have to be honest, I don't know where this is coming from, I am dealing with a stock radiator. FYI: Some Racing Classes do not let you 'downsize' the radiator for the aerodynamic advantages it provides... But again the OP was asking about a STOCK setup. Plenty of room for a couple of smaller fans, or a big single. Pushers or pullers. Whatever floats your boat. Whatever is chosen, it has to have adequate CFM or the car will overheat. I make no more contention than this simple point. That there are other tangential benefits to using my suggestion just happen to be coincidental. If I don't need a shroud, so what? I'm bypassing hot water to the bottom tank? So what? Does it affect the car in any way? No, not in any practical way---and I doubt it will in his application, either! Theory is nice, but we live in the real, practical world. "Why would you "de-pot" a fan controller? when you can make a new one "un-potted"." Ever reverse engineer something you liked which worked well? On the controller I'm using, they're potted. To see what 'guts' are used, do you have a better idea than de-potting? Crystal Ball Maybe? Of do you have an already drawn schematic with parts list for a circa 1990 Hayden Dual Fan Controller? If so, give it up. Otherwise, to replicate it, it's reverse engineering, and that means getting that black crap off the components and circuit board. "Why did you choose the temp ranges you did." Running around in 120F heat tends to reveal things guys back east will never understand. Apparently you are case-in-point. The thermal stresses encountered in a typical summer day of 85F here where I live won't be encountered anywhere east of the Mississippi. Not even close. It's got more thermal stress on the car at that temperature than over 110F in Iowa, Georgia, or North Carolina. There's a reason all the OEMs take their cars and run them in a circuit through the SoCal Desert for hot weather testing. My back yard... "I would never intentionally use a 160f thermostat, where did you get that?" Uh, BJ, that would be Nissan Motor Corporation, Global Headquarters 1-1, Takashima 1-chome, Nishi-ku, Yokohama-shi, Kanagawa 220-8686, Japan. Look it up. "Thermostat, Tropical, 72C" It's used in HIGH AMBIENT TEMPERATURE AREAS (not North Carolina which would use a higher temperature "Temperate" thermostat of 82 or if up north in Michigan the "Frigid" Thermostat of 85C Rating. It's all in the parts books. All OEM. All engineered for THIS application. (Since you put so much stock in that...) "I am pretty sure that a proper radiator and a proper fan would allow a much higher operatning temp thermostat." Take it up with the Engineers at Nissan. 'Proper' and what is in the car may not be the same thing. As I recall the OP revolved around a STOCK car (more or less) using STOCK components. Such was my recommendation. I will note the acknowledged issues of stagnant flow in the Nissan L-6 which contributes to it's poor cooling performance when stressed. Nissan made a 72C thermostat for a reason, you know! Now, if you can tell my why the whole of the Nissan Engineering Department is wrongheaded in their specification of three separate and distinct thermostat ranges depending on climate and driving conditions, I'm all ears for that one. School me and the dopes at Nissan! You're 'pretty sure'---but what do you really know for a fact? "If your engine can't reach operating temps in cold weather then you have a MAJOR cooling system flaw." Er, yeah, it's called optimization for 120F Ambient with a 160F Thermal Layer through the radiator, and then trying to operate the same system at 25F. All those big rigs on the road with the big grey zippered covers running down the road in February with the radiator blocked (like a Y2K Chevy Diesel Van where you need to cover the radiator to get decent heater operation because it runs so cold...) They all have a 'major flaw' called 'excess capacity'---this allows them to run fouled, in extreme hot environments, etc... If you live in Malaysia and it's always 32C outside, then maybe you can do one thing all the time. If you live where there is a temperature swing of over 100F it might call for some different setups at different times of the year. I'll go so far as to admit I left out 'at idle' when referring to lower temperatures. At idle I'll stick around 150 to 155 F. I won't get hotter than that until I put a load on the engine. And that goes for if the car has a 185, 170 or 160F thermostat in it. It's simply a matter of BTU rejection with the pump turning at idle and available thermal mass on a below 40F day... For christs sake, the guy asked what CFM fan he needed, and you want to pick flyshit out of the pepper with boxing gloves! If the theoretical argument stimulates you this much, have at it, but from a practical standpoint what I said WORKS and WORKS WELL IN VERY DEMANDING CONDITIONS. Make the wrong (undersized) suggestion CFM-Wise, and you will end up overheating. Tell me it's not so. You can rail all you want about SUPERFLOUS MINUTAE, but the point remains the guy asked what CFM he needed, and not if he needed a shroud or not. Or how he should redesign his coolant system to outsmart the Nissan Engineers.

I have had guys fly out one way on a Southwest flight to take posession of a $500 deal that they snatched up on E-Bay paying with Pay-Pal and storing at my place for free till they had the time (summer break) to come get it. So for a $159 BWI to ONT Southwest Getaway Fare (each) bought three months in advance, $500 for the car, and the cost of gasoline and food on the way back (I can't remember if the four tires they checked as baggage were an additional cost or accepted by Soutwest as-is for checked transport. The friend came along as bag check, and for the adventure... They were young, under 25 as I recall... It would have been $50 for the two checked tires if he came alone.) Anyway, they came with the skins off their rustbucket to drive it back across the country and did just that. Absolutely pristine chassis a little worse for some wear (sun faded red, but original paint). When the got back home, they commenced swapping the turbo'd drivetrain into the car and went from there. Helluva lot more memorable driving across the country with a good friend than getting rust in your eyes and lighting your crotch on fire a couple of times! At least more pleasurable memories.

BTW, what exactly is my 'priorities of importance'? That you have sufficient flow (CFM/GPM) through the radiator? If you are disputing that, indeed we truly disagree!

"Your poorly shrouded examples are going to allow some very hot water to pass to the outlet." Will it? What is the lower tank's function? The trick is delta rise across the engine to be less than delta T across the radiator. As long as the rejection is higher than input, you are O.K... That some 'hot water bypases' is immaterial as long as the temperature into the engine is low enough to not cause a spot boiling problem in the engine and the resultant runaway issues. My experience has shown that if you insist on running 185F thermostats you will need to run elevated cap pressures or risk runaway conditions (especially in the back two cylinders). For most people it's easier to simply keep the temperature lower and avoid it with standard parts than buy the cap and worry about the leaks on a street car. Let's not get into track modifications for the street. If we want to do that, let's start another thread. Remember I was the guy who mentioned cooling a Z with an Impala A/C Evaporator Core....(what was that about coolant volume optimization again?) The original post asked how much CFM and gave an example. I gave a CFM, gave a reason why it was a conservative and proven number and thought it good enough. Then it digressed. The Z had a Shroud in JDM, it didn't have one here. Some places needed it, cooler places didn't. If the fan produces enough flow the shroud is not necessary. I never said 'don't put one on' conversely I didn't say you have to have one, either.

"I don't mind spending the money on my rusty chassis." Again, if you have the money to waste, more power to ya. "If you don't have the time, and don't want whatever skills or knowledge that can be obtained from taking on a rust repair project (or already have done so), then I would have to agree with you. Sounds like that's your case. Also helps that you live in the land of rust free Datsuns." Uh... yeah. Again, I'm just letting as many people as possible know there IS an alternative. Many people don't have a clue what will be involved, and don't have the money to waste. Which is apparently your case. Like I said, more power to ya. You are fortunate. Most people aren't.

curiously, there are some numbers listed for the Taurus fan online: 2500/4000+CFM! Don't know where they get their numbers, but it's interesting that the fan claimed to work the best is right within 500 CFM of my admittedly conservative estimation!

Nothing spectacular, two 10" fans rated at 2500 or 2550CFM (it's been almost 15 years now!) mounted to the back of the radiator with the standard 'pushthrough' connectors in a 'draw-through' configuration down as low as I could get them. No shroud. It let my water pump pulley stay where it was, and doesn't interfere with my crankshaft damper. My 14" was offset towards the left side of the car as were the smaller ones I tried. The biggest pain at the time was there weren't a lot of 'thinline' fans available like now---and mounting the larger fans got the motor closer and closer to the rotating water pump pulley. I like the idea of dual-aftermarket fans as if one fails, you still have some chance to make it to the side of the road in stop-n-go and get to someplace to affect a repair. With a single...well... Call me paranoid, but I don't like aftermarket fans, have had some fail. I would say the Taurus fan being a single, but OEM tested and proven would be an exception to my paranoia. But as documented there are 'hairs' attached to running a fan that REALLY moves the air it's supposed to (high amperage, etc...) Twin fans won't use less energy, but their individual loads may be more managable without specialized componentry.

Swap head gasket: 4 hours, no lifting devices required. Swap engine...more time, lifting device required. I don't see 'swapping heads' keep the spare complete for some future use. A shop can check the head for warpage, if you have a decent straightedge and some feeler gauges you can do it.

Rationalizing spending $5000 for rust repair when chassis replacement for 1/10 the cost (for a non-historic vehicle) is a pathalogical behaviour. It has nothing to do with being a 'heap of metal'---it has to do with forethought and economic realities. If you CHOOSE to spend $5000 repairing rust on a car you can get a replacement chassis for 1/10 the cost, it's your perogative, but it's not a normal thought process. If you have the money to WASTE more power to ya! Some people want bragging rights as to how much they spent on their restoration like a badge of honor. Others look at the challenge of bringing it back from the dead---and I can see that if you are a panel-beater making the panels by hand. But for the MAJORITY of people who will simply weld in replacement panels from another car starting with a rust-free chassis is FAR more reasonable both in terms of safety integrity and overall costs. I watched a guy spend $3500 (in 1979 dollars!) on rust repair on a 1969 Corvair Monza when I was a teenager, we did it because in our Midwestern Rust-Belt Minds 'it's the thing to do'... When I moved to California less than 9 years later, and picked up a 1966 Corvair Corsa Turbo for $1600 (in 1989 dollars!) I realized (as did he) he wasted a lot of money stupidly 'resurrecting' a car that should have LOGICALLY gone to the scrap heap after being salvaged for parts. We would have been money and life experience ahead to BOTH fly to SoCal, buy a Corvair in L.A. and driven it back to Michigan for what we spent on RUST REPAIR ALONE. In the process we would have 'saved' a far more historically significant vehicle in the process (1966 Corvair Corsa Turbo is listed as a 'muscle car' for making 1+hp/CID and was the last year of it's production...) But like I said, we were IGNORANT at the time. We didn't know an alternative to our madness existed. I am here to point out there is an alternative. Ignorance is not something to be ashamed of...but when the realities are brought out in the open, to refuse to acknowledge them is no longer ignorance... Since I won't be chipping up the Pine Tree that fell on my house tomorrow, I may go to the yard to check it out. Like I need another rust-free chassis laying around... Remember, I lived in the rust belt, I know 'the thought process' -- this isn't some spoiled viewpoint, it's an EYE OPENER! Take it for what it's given forth as: a way to save a BUNDLE of money and save countless headaches down the road. Most rust repairs done in the USA I've seen when done on a major basis have been...uh...'sketchy' at best. Rarely are structural concerns properly addressed, or prevention of recurrance taken into account. The people who have this romantic notion of 'bringing it back' usually haven't successfully done it. Watch the guys who have spent several tens of thousands of dollars on their car 'restoration' and almost to a man they all would say the same thing: "If I'd known what I could have bought a RUST FREE CHASSIS FOR $XXXX, I would have done that and put the money I saved towards XXXXXXX!" Seen 'em say that more than once. Romantisicisim is one thing, practical restoration realities are dictated by cash flow and your pocketbook.

I'll also point out that the Thread Title was 'How many CFM's are needed from an electric fan?' I believe I'm the only one who justified his answer for what he gave... What is the CFM of the Taurus Fan? A draft gauge and sq ft of coverage will tell you quite clearly what it is... Wanna lay money it compares favorably to what I've posted?

"You both agree that a decent fan and a decent shroud are the way to go. FINI!" If that was what was said, I would agree. The reason I'm a stickler on CFM is that I bought the lie ONCE that 'more coverage is better' and bought (as stated) a 16" fan rated to be 'adequate' for my application. It was not. It didn't cool as well as my 'smaller' 14" fan. And therein lies the rub. It started quite a bit of experimentation where I determined that the 'size' a company put on their fans has very little to do with how they cool. What IS very applicable is the CFM. And as you mentioned earlier, the AMPS are directly related to the CFM a fan produces. I don't want anybody else to waste money on a fan that is 16" thinking that they will help their situation simply because 'coverage' is better. If the fan is not capable of moving the air necessary (see my original posted comment which was disputed) then it won't work...period. Regardless of what you want. I didn't have to make a ridiculous example to make a 'theoretical' point, I stuck to real world sizes and examples which are known and proven to work. Experiments which proved that the 'coverage' as a portion of radiator covered is basically irrelevant---it's the CFM that counts! A 12" 5500CFM fan will work just as well as a 16" 5500CFM fan. Packaging a tight engine bay will benefit from the easier placement of a single 12" as it can 'move' quite a bit on the radiator. Split the difference and get a pair of 2500 10" fans, it's all good. None of them 'needs' a shroud, it might boost effectiveness, but I haven't personally had an issue where I needed a shroud to have the engine operate in the proper temperature ranges I desired (following the CFM guidelines I gave above!) Main point being (and my duct tape example was designed to have someone check their own example) is that the radiator needs very little actual airflow AREA to accomplish what it needs to do. Unfortunately it was not checked. Don't know why. As to switch requirements, I like the Hayden or other 'adjustable' electronic controllers where I can adjust a trimpot to get actual fan on/off temperatures to work where I want them. Were I more ambitious (and if JeffP had more time) I would de-pot their black box and make a multiple circuit to control multiple fans from several different temperature ranges. Right now, I run a single 10" (around 2500CFM) which has a second 10" cycle on if the temperature goes much above 180. First fan is on at 175, second at around 180. On colder days (below 40F) I only run one 10" fan. In July driving in Phoenix in 120F heat, if I am below 25mph one fan is on, and when I come to a dead stop in traffic, the second fan cycles on/off on a 180on 170off cycle. First fan comes on at 175 and shuts off at 165. Thermostat is 160. In temperatures below zero, I can have issues getting to operating temperature and kick myself for forgetting to install the 180F thermostat before going to the cold places...but that hasn't happened in a while.

He can dream on... I'll wait for the e-bay sales.

Wanna eat your heart out on this one guys back east? An offer of $700 for the car COMPLETE, before it was put into the yard likely would have secured it for you. The chassis, maybe $300 if stripped totally plus shipping would get it to you. Still cheaper than rust repair on most cars in the Rust Belt. Unless someone has a very historically significant car (and 99.999% won't) rust repair on a major scale is simply foolish and not fiscally justified. As for 'ruining' someone's chances for a business of onsie-twosies... yeah right! I got people who fly from EUROPE and buy cars a CONTAINER LOAD at a time from SoCal (they do it from Japan as well...) The cars are going to where people appreciate them and will spend the money to keep them maintained. I have sold cars 'for parts' that once in Europe were used as a complete vehicle because even heavily crash damaged, the SOLIDITY of the chassis made the repair to the wreck cheaper than the rust repair to the Euro Chassis. As someone once said (who preps rally cars in Europe) "This chassis (a 1978 280Z) after acid dipping had less evidence of rust on it than a 3 year old BMW driven here daily!" There are plenty of foolish people with more money than sense, fear not they will suddenly see the light and spend less for their car, or their rust repair. Some people you won't reach even with the Bat Signal!

Like it or not, there are still many many carburetted vehicles out there. Like when CA changed over to the new blends which worked fine in EFI cars, if you have a carb on your car, you just suck it and live with what's available, warts and all. Technical Aspects of E15? 5% worse than E10 I guess in my daily driver...

"Right. Properly SIZED fan, that's what I was getting at. I would get a 16" fan over a 12" fan each at K CFM." 12 or 16" will not make a difference. I ran dual 10's or single 16, 14 or even an HE 12"...they all worked if they had adequate CFM. All worked WITHOUT shrouds. Adequate 'coverage' and adequate CFM are entirely unrelated and different things. As noted above, dual 10's, single 12, 14 or 16 all worked adequately to cycle the fan on and off and not allow an overheat to exist. This was on a 350HP turbocharged 1973 Z in 110F+ Desert Heat with a 3 core radiator. If 'coverage' was all that important (or moreso than CFM) then at some point the smaller fans would not work. They did. Coverage with any fan (I might be so bold as to say a single 10" would work, but I haven't seen one with adequate CFM---and putting a shroud on it won't help if the CFM ain't there!) You won't overheat if you have CFM. You can have all the 'coverage' in the world, if there isn't enough CFM flowing (shrouded or not) you will overheat. Been there, done that... Run a strip of duct tape across the radiator at the top. Now, do it at the bottom. Repeat until you have approximately 3/4 of the radiator is covered. Now go driving without a fan at 30mph in fifth gear. See where the temperature equalizes at, then repeat at 60mph and report the results. Air flowing equally across the flow direction of the radiator needs VERY LITTLE space to adequately cool the engine. If you can cool a 400HP L6 with a condenser core from a 74 Chevrolet Impala... Don't know where you got the idea that 'coverage' is anywhere near as important as CFM. I have run 16" fans and overheated. Arguably they cover more than the 14" that I replace it with (and which was on previously without overheating)---the only difference was CFM. Don't take it to a ludicrous end to make a bad point. We're talking about commonly available fan combinations, and dual 10's will work, so will a single 12 if the CFM is high enough. I know, I've done it on more than one car, with pretty extreme operation requirements in a Z car. If I can see instrumented changes when I change appearance pieces on the front of my car, I think I can tell if a fan is adequate or not with the same instrumentation...

yes, they have been used, those that use them report the results in various threads.