Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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To summarize:
"Your off-boost driveability issue is directly related to driving in the wrong gear for the speed you are travelling."
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I discussed this with JeffP today... The moral is, "if you think you will make 400HP on an L-Series "on a budget" and that budget isn't BIG, you're delusional."
There is going to be money spent, and JeffP is sad people don't read the story on his website and pick up that his GOAL was to show people how to make 500 RWHP following a KNOWN formula with all items proven, tested, and repeatable.No need to waste the money, he did that for you on HIS build!
Sadly he realizes now that my suggestion of 'building on a junkyard block until you get the fuel tuning right' is DAMN good advice. A stock (BONE STOCK) L28ET bottom end easily handles 450+HP. He corrected me on the figures "489.9 HP at 17psi and using C16" -- this on a stock L28ET bottom end which holds oil temperature at a given point during 475HP Dyno Pulls lasting 5 minutes.
All the money, put into the Head, Cam, Turbo, USING A STOCK EXTRUDE-HONED INTAKE, and EFI system made that power. And once you get it there, you can add reliability of forged pistons (and even more power now that you can rev to 8,500 rpms...maybe need to buy a new turbo...but that's evident if you read the page.
He's maxing out a GT35R (stonewall) with a stock bottom end not exceeding 7,000 rpms. He's making MORE power with a stock bottom end at almost HALF the boost as he did when he was featured on the cover of Z-Car Magazine.
"Every time I talk to you, you cost me $2,000 man!" Well this last talk will only cost was $1,000 and likely he will make more power, at even LOWER boost.
There is a point where you can sit back and realize that 380Ft-Lbs of torque at 4,500 rpms on 91 Octane Crap CA Gas on around 8 PSI of boost would actually meet more people's requirements and not have the need for an intercooler, or for that matter significantly altered stock EFI transplant from a Z32. In fact, it would look stock enough (save for that 4" turbo inlet line...) and retain all stock emissions components that you could in fact pass the visual and functional CA SMOG test (another criteria of his build, admittedly departed from but still in his mind as a 'what could we build and still meet smog specs?"
The groundwork is out there, it's just that there is so much of a preponderance of the oversimiplified "Maximum Boost Mentality" that telling people they need a $500 porting job and another $500 for a cam doesn't get received well...Especially when there are guys not telling the whole truth about the 'easy big turbo slapped on and make big power" stories all over the internet. They won't line out the whole Big Phil saga like Gollum did. He encapsulated his build history shorter than one of Phil's Videos scene change shots! LOL
"YOU WANT YOUR INTAKE VALVE TO BE THE RESTRICTION THAT BUILDS BOOST IN YOUR TURBO CAR, NOTHING ELSE!" a bit extreme, but in the end that really is the goal. Minimize 'pumping losses' same as in an N/A engine. The Turbocharger Revolution was fostered on the idea that you didn't have to properly engineer a system to get big horsepower. And in a way it's true. But proper engineering analysis and thought always pays dividends. Turbos made a lot of people lazy for a long time...
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"A lot of that modern safety crap that they weigh cars down with now is to protect stupid people who should not be driving a car in the first place."
Amen.
I refer to it as the "Anti-Darwin Legislative League" it's purpose is to counter Darwin's theories by legislating both vehicular and behavioral laws which prolong those who shouldn't be driving in the first place from meeting their justified evolutionary ending. Hopefully before they breed and pass on to another generation their terrible habits. The first law was mandatory legislated use of baby seats, our only hope for retroactive poor habit pass on prevention...
Some may say my views are a bit...extreme.
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I actually took them back in 1980 as a high school junior...leg up to the GM Dealer in town. I had a patch! LOL
Back then it was book testing, read the right books and retain it...and you could pass easily.
Over the years they have improved them... They were caught unaware with the "import invasion" relying heavily on domestic stuff only into the mid 90's... It finally started changing as they started hearing from multiline dealers "ASE Means Squat on Imports!"
Ahh, the old days...
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Which ASE's? Do they still break it all down by systems?
Last time I tested and got patches (somewhere) it was "NIASE"!
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Drive in the proper gear for speed and you won't have that issue, 109% guaranteed!
Compression increasing won't appreciably change what you feel off boost.
Would you continually drive a crammed N/A car at 1,500~2,500 (with a cam that "came on" at 3,500) and complain of mushy performance off cam?
Why do people expect their turbos to turn the car into a lovey V8 capable of performance at 1,500 rpms? Just like a car with a cam, drive it in the proper gear and you don't have those "mushy response" issues.
Has to be THE most common complaint I hear from Z-People, especially in "The Heartland" who cut their teeth on big engines.
These ain't Chevys....don't try to drive them like one!
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Ahh, one of those...
Yeah, if you're close like I said... But a pick upload of trash going to Goodwill...
And fresh cash in your hand outside of the Imperial Taxation Structure can have the same effect.
Quarterlies suck.
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Thanks for the follow-up, but if you read John C's and Tony's posts again your engine is still breaking in. Are you driving it like you stole it (I hope so) or are you babying the car (a no no)?
Argh.... EXACTLY! And have you had your compression gauge CHECKED AND CALIBRATED? What IS "150" on your gauge? Is it really 150? Is it actually 175? What is it? They're even across the board and within range of a proper service. Dude, what you WANT means nothing. Mechanical realities are mechanical realities. WANT in one hand POOP in the other, and see which has the better odds of becoming filled first!
And EXACTLY how is 150 NOW "low" when in your OP you stated "120, which I think is 30 too low in my estimate".... Now you are SPOT ON your original stated desires and saying you think 160 is the point you should be at??? WTF??? Because you did a wet test at 175? That's the difference between TOTAL RING SEAL AND EVOLVING RING SEAL I thought this was made perfectly clear, it sounds like you will be unhappy no matter what....it's going to take TIME to seat the rings. You were TOLD what to do if you wanted FINAL compression readings: Put it on a dyno at PEAK TORQUE for TWO HOURS W.O.T. and then see what it does... That's a broken-in engine. Yours is not. And it won't be for another 17-27,000 miles.
Where's your leakdown readings? WIthout it, you are giving more than worthless data, and you are doing the worst possble thing imaginable: becoming disenchanted with mechanical work based on incomplete testing and some misguided sense of 'what should be' without a clue of the realities involved.
Chill out, run the damn engine HARD now that you have some ring seat and see where compression as well as LEAKDOWN go.
But since you didn't check leakdown, you won't really know from start, will you?
Some people obsess on book numbers, others realize the world isn't like the internet. You better learn the different between reality and theory and live with normal "RANGE" of readings or find another line of relaxation. There is no story here. There is no reason for being unhappy. Get over it, move on, drive the damn car and quit with the OCD Incomplete Diagnostics.
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You spoke of switching various spark plugs....you didn't stick with the stock Heat Range did you? Get one range hotter AT LEAST. That will help with the fouling being burnt off.
Make sure they have the proper gap when installed, people say plugs today are 'pregapped' but my checking of them says "B.S."!
Hotter Plugs will combat that fouling.
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"$4k+ in tax advantage means a lot more than $1k, or even $2k in my pocket right now,"
What he hell tax bracket are you IN anyway? I think you REALLY need to discus that with a Tax Advisor, I think getting a $1,000 in unreported cash payment advances your situation far more than the tax advantage provided by a $4,000 deduction on itemized listing (unless you are that close that you aren't meeting AGI percentage to allow deductability...)
Give trash to Goodwill dude... sell the car and get CASH!
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I'm sure everydoby with the ditch it and go with something else has something they just happen to sell which would solve the problem.
There HAS to be more than the dyno strapdown issue. If you TRULY gave up after one shot on the dyno....you are pursuing the wrong hobby.
I had great MS results for about 15 minutes. For the NEXT TWO YEARS I went through reset hell, and populated Moby's thread with all sorts of issues.
In the end it was MY LAPTOP COMM CHIP corrupting it when I went online to program.
I have often warned other people touting "Ditch MS, get an SDS" that connecting your injectors backwards or other connections will fry an SDS same as any issue they may be having on MS.
In the end it comes to the person doing the work and how detail oriented they are. . .
Gollum's comment about Big Phil and his Buddy....JeffP was going down the same path determined he needed "30psi" to get his 500HP... and a forged Rebello bottom end 3.0. Now he's making 475 on C16 at 17psi at 6500 rpms and lamenting he didn't listen to me when it was all on the Rebello bottom end and make a full redline pass at only 8psi to see where the power peak was (still climbing hitting the rev limiter at 7400 on cast pistons...)
I grew up on VW's and then moved to Japan for five years. I was not infected by CBell and "Maximum Boost" and found it an interesting counterpoint to printed media like Bob Tomlinson's "Turbomania" ... Of course, Corky had a BUNCH of cool gadgets to sell you to solve any problem you had...
I have to concur with Gollum, we seem to both be on the same page. You spent a LOT of money to get where you are---throwing it all away to start over is foolish.
The reason you are doing this is undefined clear goals and planning on the front end.
My suggestion would be to go somewhere that knows SDS and have them scope out the unit. It sounds like interference or bad power. Or a bad unit... But it's something that should be solved through a return to SDS for repair at a much lower cost than going with a totally new unit.
I can't count how many projects I've bought (a few people know the story of my black car, bought from an owner that had to sell by someone without a clue how to do what he wanted and who sold to me and was INFURIATED that 45 minutes after I bought the car the 'unsolveable, insurmountable problems" in the car were solved and it was running...DAMN good. My fix? A proper Fuel Pump (not the EFI one for Mikunis) and Fresh Gas. Sure he had screwed up plenty of other stuff that would have caused him torment down the road...but they were all solved with stepping back and thinking about it before blindly dashing off and 'making something happen'... How many projects have ended up wrapped around a tree because the throttle stuck wide open when the builder figured "I'll just roll it out of the shop" after first firing due to excitation of the moment? My buddy bought his LT1 Driveline from such an owner, wrapped around a telephone pole 10 miles elapsed from fire up with a Goodwrench Motor, and new Trans (not rebuilt, NEW!) The T56 Frank280ZX just got has 5K on it due to an optispark issue solved in about two hours by Andy Flagg after we gave him the car with the diagnosis. PO had replaced EVERYTHING BUT the Optispark because...well,.. I guess it was EASIER and they just didn't WANT to dig into the bottom of the motor. The Toyota I donated to the Toyota Museum had EVERY external component on the engine replaced, with a new radiator and head job...before it was abandoned on the street. It was the ONLY car I couldn't get to run reliably. But then again it only had 50psi of compression....on all four. The PO didn't want to do a block bore and overhaul, and instead changed everything on the outside of hte engine instead, hoping that would solve it.
Strange mental things happen to people building cars. Denial is huge, and the inability to look in the mirror and admit they may have bitten off more than they can chew, or don't have the skills needed to do something. Like Gollum says, at that point you either learn the skills, or knuckle under and find someone who does. And get it done.
Quitting and starting over will only cost more money. FAR more than diagnosing what the issues are and moving forward with all the time already spent going down the road.
Be VERY wary of people suggesting throwing everything away and starting over...they usually have something to sell you. Go elsewhere.
Some of the fastest vehicles on the planet use SDS.You can always get a bum unit, and if that is the case, the SDS people should be able to help out. Because YOU have problems doesn't mean it's a bad system, and at that level of options, that you will find anything 'more modern'.... If you want to plunk $8,000 on a MOTEC, have at it, but if you thought SDS was complex in programming...
AIRPLANES use SDS... which is kind of a testament to reliability if you ask me. I'm not touting SDS, I'm just saying you have some symptoms of an electrical bug, and sending the SDS unit back to SDS for a functional check/diagnosis seems to be a prudent step at this point. It's either good, or bad.
If it's good, you did something wrong and need to figure out what it is....
If it's bad, you found out, and now can get it fixed...and progress with the project.
I don't see what you have undergone as anything NEAR 'trash it and start all over'....now where near that point. Remember a project always takes 2X the time you think, and 3X the money you think.... And that's for people with a good REALISTIC grasp on costs and time. If you were unrealistic....well....nobody else to blame there you are getting an education on searching harder to find people that AREN't giving the 'I found it in the junkyard and was making 460RWHP the next day with bolt ons!' stories...
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Oh crap, I see why there is an Extrudabody reference...argh! Well you could make a simple adapter plate to fit the ITB's everybody else uses...(Standard DCOE front flange dimensions)
I thought they were an overly complex setup with excessive linkages due to design theory... If they're working now...the comment still applies.
Xnke's blown throttle plates has an interesting challenge to it. Vacuum secondaries do that if they aren't mechanical... There is enough overcenter in the stock linkages which should prevent that but the Supercharger bypass may need more work... Lift-throttle should not produce boost if bypass or BOV tuning is correct. Strange. That's one I'd like to dig into.
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If they are running well, why change? Slap an HKS Type2 on there and follow the logical progression of the build.
You aren't making any more power now over a custom plenum N/A Motor...
Once they're set, they're set. Giving them up now for a manifold that flows what...maybe 190cfm per runner at best...
You just wasted all that time!
Stay with it, and more power at lower boost. Watch the threads...it's boost pressure (the Corky Bell Approach) that causes difficulties in a turbo build.
A good lowing head and good cam makes killer power at 8psi, half the power most others. Make doing the "maximum boost" program.
Then again, if you make a custom intake...oh, waitaminit...
You are three bolt on parts from going turbo: a turbo, an HKS box, and a turbo manifold. Retune and run.
I've done it for years. People at MSA one year said "wasn't this car turbocharged for the autoX yesterday?" It was, but in 45 minutes it wasn't anymore. Changed over the morning of the show. And with EFI it's even easier...no jet change required!
This sounds more like a failure to grasp the basics of the project than a failure of the individual components. I don't know what SDS you have, but there are plenty out there running just fine without headaches, same as Megasquirt, MOTEC, Emerald, and for that matter ITB's.
If you have issues it's likely form basic things overlooked or improper procedures. I don't know. Many times its misguided efforts and unrealistic goals. Like putting ITB's on a cast-piston N/A Motor with no cam. Terrible parts mismatch. On a turbo, the ITB's flow difference over the stock manifold makes for a big power difference at the same "plenum boost" as the stock manifold setup.
Flow matters more than boost. High flow turbo engines (low boost) run into less tuning issues than mega boost engines making the same power.
No, you don't need it. But you really are willing to toss out all the time you put in to get it "right" and start over with everything new?
Having others tune? There is investment in personal learning in a project like this. If you abdicate that, you invariably end up disappointed with the result.
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There is no "normal" they are all Special...
No need to be a Seaticst!
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"Just call me Gor..."
"Search, noob, lest I cleave your
Head with that axe right there..."
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"Obviously this is symptomatic of a bad FPR."
Thanks for that. Made my night! You kill me man...
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Explain to me again why you need to get rid of the ITB's to go "Full Turbo"?
I'm sure George can explain what I'm talking about...
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Actually, no...
The "new black plates" are reflective as all current new plates are...
The originals like in that photo (as with the blue & yellow plates) do not have reflective background, only reflective letters....kinda.
The DMV misstates the quip about having to comply with current plate laws requiring reflective plates. There are current plates which are not reflective...
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custom intake is way out of my league..
There is an eye-opening Group Buy going on right now...
You might be surprised!
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My 260 didn't break into the teens on the highway until I crossed the century mark on I80 Eastbound... And then only 19.5!
The FI '76 got a steady 22 towing an 800# HF Mini-Trailer at a steady 80-85!
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Depends on your speed....but with a five speed doing a steady 75 I got easily double that, and then some! You got problems!
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Radiator cap opening will be the same either place: it's pressure-based relief, not temperature.
But on the cold side it would be water flooded, unless you put your expansion tank as a bubble up from the cold side hose....which I could see causing problems with venting steam there as it will still displace fluid on the feed side of the pump...potentially cavitating it as bubbles pass into the pump.
I forget the device that deaerates fluids before a pump, it's patented but the inventor has put it into the public domain and acts as a design consultant on implementation... Neat device, like a cyclone separator. Amazing deaeration on frothy hot oil, and bubbly moving coolant. Great guy, talked for a couple hours on the phone with him but damned if I remember his name...which is also the name of his device! Argh!
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From Evans website:
"At extreme cold temperatures the coolants contract and become extremely thick, not becoming solid and expanding like antifreeze containing water."
Uh, the way I read that is they DO EXPAND, otherwise they could not "contract"...eh?
They mention -40.... Where does this "extreme thickening" begin? Like Arco Graphite "see, it's liquid at operating temperature!" Uh, yeah, how do you pump jello? Frankly, if it "freezes" at -40 as it states on it's website, there is NO WAY I would be using this where I formerly lived! No way, no how!
Boiling at 375 is equivalent to EG 100%, which I believe is also a "waterless coolant" but sure as hell doesn't FREEZE at -40!!!
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1975 280z turbo- worth it?
in Non Tech Board
Posted
Ratrod my arse! That's a bloody abortion being kicked around the clinic floor! There's easily $2-3,000 in cosmetics alone on that car...and I don't know where to begin with the Auchweitz-Institute Fuel System photo...
$1,100 would be generous for the package given what it needs. This guy would be WELL advised to go to Earl Schieb or Maaco DIRECTLY after a Naval Jelly two-day soaking of that hideously surface-rusted body and slap the cheapest paint job he can get onto it.
THEN he could probably ask $5,000. (If you have Scheib or Maaco fix that surface rust, you're looking at $2,000 and not 'Half Price normally $499 Presidential urethane Paint Service' sale cost to repair it!)
The end result is the same: $3,000 in his pocket from someone normal. The only person who will spend $3,000 for that car has big gold chains and doughnut residue under his nose saying "he has a little trip up north to do, and wants a car that will get him there cheap!"