Mikelly

Ross was a few years younger than me I think. I'm 46. Ross and I struck up our friendship here, and chatted offline about a lot of things once he started actually formulating the business that would become Modern Motorsports LLC. Ross wanted to take the control arm design I had and make it better, and I wanted out of the parts making business, so it was a natural transition for Ross to make his new business venture incorporate his idea of the perfect (and better) control arm for the masses. We chatted about a number of things over the years, including the inner workings of this site, the state of the Datsun Zcar community, vendor support, and life in general. As life happens, people drift away from contact and get on with other aspects of life, and Ross and I didn't chat for a few years, until I needed stops for my CV axles and a few other small parts. I got them within weeks of ordering without issue and Ross sent a note to make sure I got them and they were acceptable. All his parts always were... Two months later I ordered more parts and had the same results, except this time with a call to ask me about the rear diff setup. Ross wanted to know where I had gotten a differential mount because it wasn't his!! We had a good laugh, and he was quick to remind me he could have supplied the part. Ross had an eye for details like that. Ross changed the Zcar community. He gave us alternatives to the minimal other vendors, and his parts were designed to really stand up to the abuses some of our cars are capable of putting those parts through.

Playing with cardboard yesterday evening... I got a shipment of kydex in a few weeks back, so I'll start possibly making the pieces in the coming days. My goal is to eventually get these parts made in something lighter, but for now this stuff is easy to form and isn't that heavy. Mike

So what's "next" in the ever evolving Zcar? I've decided to forego the belly pan and rear difuser for a while. That said I'm going to moch up rockers airguides as well as extending the front of the spoiler down lower as a "lip of about 2 inches. I also would like to start moching up some tire facer panels to block the turbulant air as much as possible at that point. On the 28th of June I'll be going back to the dyno for some more advanced tuning. I hope to get the car more dialed in, and my laptop/datalogger more dialed in as well. Obviously more details to come. This week coming up will be a little hectic because we have a funneral/family gathering tomorrow for much of the day. On Thursday of this coming week I have a long day (generally 10 hours plus the 3 hour round trip commute, and Friday morning we're heading to Charlotte to race the chumpcar 10 hour enduro, so next weekend won't be spent on the Zcar at all. Mike

Tyson, I used the XP12s (I think the letters are correct, I know the numbers were the 12s). Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your experience, and if I were in your shoes I'd run those pads for life, because they worked for you.

Bringing this thread back up. After last weekend at the track I was thinking maybe I won't section my struts as I am getting decent suspension travel on very stiff springs with 8610s and zero rubbing or interference,. I started an email thread with Mark Icard, John Tedder and Tom Harris, but figured I'd throw it out here. Matt Isbell and Mark I. both are int he boat I'm in with regards to tracking their Zcars. Matt has spoken with a few people about shocks, and Mark has spoken directly with Koni about building a more suitable shock for the Zcar. When I was playing with Porsches, Moton and JRZ made external reservoir shock setups for those 911s for $5K. This was all the hardware and springs as well as the shocks valved appropriately. The question is, what would you pay for world class performance for an external reservoir shock? One of the most direct bits of feedback Matt got from Mike Skeen driving his car was "You need better shocks". I think, for those of us who are truly trying to build Datsuns that can compete with these newer performance platforms, we may need to seriously investigate the options... So again, what would you be willing to pay for the truly ultimate shock kit for your Zcar?

Which is 180 degrees from what we experienced with some Carbotechs on the Specmiata. Burned thru them in a weekend with two drivers driving the car at a DE, about 3.5 hours track time. After all the good we had heard, and as expensive as they were, we were sorely disappointed. Whichever pad you choose, make sure they also work with your braking style. On the Porsche Pagid RS29s would wear grear and you could get about 15 hard DE days out of the rears and 9 out of the fronts (with GT3 6piston calipers and 14 inch rotors) but they lacked initial bite and also had complaints of drag. Pagid RS14s (their Black pad) was a better alternative with better initial bite, and decent wear. The Performance Friction PF01/03/06 pads were a good product alternative. I've run the Hawk blacks on several cars so I figured I'd run them on the Zcar. They work well but require a little heat initially. I may try the EBC YellowStuff pads on the Mustang. They are getting decent reviews from a few of the DE guys running them on several platforms.

Nice project. Be interested in seeing the final product on that dash. Are the door scallops going to be functional and duct to something/channel air or are they purely asthetic?

They sure seemed to! The car was very stable at speed and I didn't feel like it had any issues. As you can see from the suspension compression, I was really applying a bunch of grip. my trackmate was showing 1.5Gs thru that big 270 degree corner. At no point did we bottom out and I am seeing zero evidence of any rubbing on any bodywork. I also noticed that during the 6-7 laps the car ran around the course it had zero issues with oil pressure (sustained in the 30-60PSI range according to the data log), Oil temps (never got above 212 according to the data logs) and coolant temps (Never got above 193 according to the data logs). I was considering sectioning the struts but I really don't need to adjust for travel anymore. I do plan to wire in two more analog sensors and log them. One for differential temp and one for trans temp. My focus in the coming days/weeks will be to clean up the front end by installing a spoiler on the leading edge of the front end, and to fabricate some rocker lower panels. Mike

Special thanks to Stacy King for pics from this past weekend!!! Mike

Matt, last weekend was the first weekend I got to drive the car at speed for several laps and the car was rock solid stable. I can only assume that sealing off the hood and letting the air escape through the hood vents and the fender vents helped a fair amount with stability. My car only lost grip when I hit puddles on track while passing other cars. Otherwise, it was glued to the tarmac. I know the smart kids in class will argue that my fender vents are to small or to poorly positioned as with everything else I do. Funny, but I see none of their handy work, but lots of snipes at mine, and yours!!! What's even more funny is that the smartest kid in the room is sending PMs to others to try to win their support in his cause to harrass me. Shame that I was actually the guy who went to bat for him when we first made him a moderator here... POS for sure. Be interested in hearing about your brake kit!! Mike

Ugh. Wife's aunt died this morning. She was the maid of honor at our wedding and was a really special woman. She went into the hospital a year ago for a hernia repair on an existing problem and the Doctor operating nicked her bowel. Mary suffered for a YEAR trying to fight off septic infections until it finally took her. Word to the wise, always make sure you seek a second opinion and always make sure you know what it is you are signing when you sign a release of liability before surgery. I needed a distraction while my wife was asleep so I went out to the shop and replaced some valve cover gaskets. Hoping my oil leaks are finally put to bed. These Edlebrock units are like 1/2 inch thick. Next up I am going to tackle the sectioning of front struts.

I pulled and inspected all my stuff before the VIR event. The pads (*front and rear) along with the rotors might have 4 hours total on them. I mic'ed everything when I installed them and re-mic'ed everything in May. I have ZERO wear on my pads and rotors. ALL the components that are wear related have zero wear. Proper fluids, proper pad compounds, proper cooling all have worked well for me. This is the SAME setup I used on our spec miata. The Porsche had Pagid pads and Porsche components. I could get between 10-15 days on pads with that car and I would hit 170-180MPH every lap at VIR. I know, I know, its a Porsche... Point is cold air, good fluid (I always use RBF600), and great pads (minimum of 1/4 inch of pad material on all rotors) will always provide you with a day at the track, assuming healthy rotors. And Cary is correct. Cryotreated rotors work for a reason... There is a whole cottage industry around it.

Here is a novel idea, if you don't like the agenda of those who are spending their time and money to conduct a test, and willing to share the data, then DO something constructive to contribute to the Zcar community yourselves. Otherwise, when you get pushback, think about WHY you are getting it. Chris I don't know or give a good goddamn about how old you are. I am 46 years old and have never claimed to be an engineer. I have repeatedly stated that I listen to "true" experts, of which one person in this thread qualifies for based on real world first hand experience. The points being made are when its your money tilting windmills is fine. Dont crtisize us because we choose not to ignore smarter peoeple than those in this thread. There is an excellent laypersons explanation of what doesnt work with rear difusers in Junes GRM. An "expert" wrote that article, but as this thread has proven, his advice will likely be ignored too. Good luck with your software tests and finding a solidworks 240z model. Burton Brown has been looking for one for a while. Now, since we keep getting asked "But why" (and I'm having flashbacks to my kids at 11-13), Maybe it has to do with the simple facts that the 40 year old Datsun Chassis is, well OLD, and designed 40 years ago. Look at the fender openings and where the suspension uprights sit. Where is the fuel tank located? Notice how FAR BACK it sits behind the rear axle? Look at how uneven the floor pans are. What cars have you owned that have excellent aerodynamics? I've got first hand experience with the most recent Corvette platforms, and both employed cab forward designs parking the wheels into the corners and minimalizing overhang. Both employ saddletanks that rest in front of the rear wheels. Both utilize complex shapes to help aid not only suspension and subftrame design but the designs of the fenderwells/liners to assist in clean aero, ALL before considing the tunnel for the driveline or the floor pans, which are, you guessed it, FLAT. Now lets move on to the Porsche. One of the most sopisticated platforms made. I've torn appart TWO of the most current 911s of the last decade, the Twin Turbo and the GT3. Having owned both, I was intimate with their design. Having converted the Twin Turbo to FULL FACTORY FUNCTIONING GT2 AERO, I can tell you with a great deal of confidence that they too exercised much of the same elements used in the C5/6 Corvette in designing the chassis for the task, only taking greater steps to incorporate those designs. Aero channels starting just behind the nose and incorporated in the front closeout panel, air guides and diverters, vents and scoops built into the fender liners and other undercar panels... Google Mikelly and 996TT and you'll find the work done, and much like my Zcar pics, PLENTY of documentation. http://www.renntrack.com/forums/showthread.php?2227-FUNCTIONAL-GT2-Bumper-Conversion-DIY-Facts-Fiction-Broken-ankles-oh-my!&highlight=Mikelly THOSE MANUFACTURERS DESIGNED THE CARS TO FUNCTION with ACTIVE AERO. Datsun didn't in 1969. That porsche Turbo was the car the windtunnel engineer pointed to as reference to what would be required to get a Zcar to function like, well a POrsche. His comments were something like this "Better off spending your money on one of those. It'll save you the time of trying to recreate it." I'm sure Mortensen can dig up the exact quote from somewhere, as he seems to need to prove I am foulable. You guys want to create something that was unintended, and you can't just accept that "MAYBE" something won't work on the vaulted S30 chassis. I love the Z. It's why I still have it and all those other cars are long gone. But I am a realist. I know its limitations are somewhere below the basic platform of any host of other platforms. Now, onto your jab at Matt Isbell for his video. That's a pretty cheap shot and quite honestly, if he won't comment on it, I will. I was SPONSORED by vendors for doing DEs in my Porsche. Given parts to use, parts at huge discounts, or parts to evaluate and send back. For DEs. Matt is racing in NASA and winning nearly everything he enters, wheel to wheel. You ever stop and think that marketing his talents might land him a seat in a pro ride? Of course not, because it is to easy to look too shallow and assume this is a guy who is bragging and "look at me"... If you aren't a businessman or don't have an understanding of marketing in motorsports, you'll never understand how it is that I got porsche parts sponsors to give me high dollar porsche parts for free or at/below cost, or why a guy like Matt Isbell made a movie about his "day in the life" of a club racer. And since you don't understand any of that, I guess it comes as zero surprise why the hell the issues around aero and flatbottoms on Datsuns is a HIGHLY unlikely successful venture. I'm done justifying my efforts in getting some of the most developed Zcars in the country into the tunnel. Those who want to participate can contact me offline. Those who want to argue and be the smartest guys in the room can have this thread. And as usual, run it into the ground. EDIT: NOW I'm DONE, and I've used the F'N ignore feature on this board for the first time. No more Smartest guy in the room posts!!!

...Or just duct the brake rotors with cool air up front. I bought a kit like this online from a vendor blowing them out on ebay and I want to say I paid $150 for them. You can trim to fit the backing plates and plumb into your airdam as you like. Mike

I resolved the fuel issue. A simple compression fitting failed connecting to the pump inside the tank. I guess the combo of the gasoline impacting the fuel rated hose and the minimal movement of the surge box pulled at it enough to disconnect it. So now I have worm clamps on everything and fuel injection fuel line on that connection. I also resolved the issue with my fuel gauge. While I was at it I removed the fuel filler neck setup and put a traditional fuel cell "Bail" on the can for now until I am confident the issues are resolved. I also picked up some new valve cover gaskets to resolve the leaks on both valve covers (at the backs of the heads) and will look into the drivers side air/oil extractor over the coming days. This weekend I'll section the front strut tubes I have and start fitting them to the car. Mike

Guess your fish aren't that big since you posted all that back and forth, which clearly took lots of time... Here's a tip. We all know you have to be the smartest guy in the room all day, every day. Every thread you're in... we got it. Go have your baby. I think your water just broke.

Right... MY radiator doesn't HAVE the core support that MOST Zcars have. THAT is the point in all of this. My car is vastly different from a stock chassis and that will alter everything in my tests. Bob Smith told me exactly what you posted. He also told me that i would require a box based on all the sheetmetal I was MISSING from my chassis. He was very specific in his point that you WILL pack in tons of air under the hood and at a point, it fills to capacity and you won't be able to extract it. It's the same exact effect as having the windows rolled down inside the car. Goodluck with the impending stork visit.

With every single car I've tracked, the biggest issue is keeping the fluid and pads happy. Captain Obvious, I know. Brake cooling ducts for the front brakes are mandatory. Appropriate TRACK PADS are mandatory. Being able to adjust the bias front to rear, I think is mandatory as well. Here is my "current" setup... I'm using a Wilwood two piece rotor that will eventually get sent to Coleman to be copied or modified. I am currently using 93-2003 Mustang Cobra Calipers on all corners. I do not use an Ebrake and don't understand everyone's desire to have one. My car doesn't lock the brakes if the tires are hot. My brake balance is decent and I don't have to touch the bias lever much but so far I haven't had enough consistant laps to wear pads. That said, I'm a big fan of the bite the HAWK BLACK pads are providing when I'm at speed. The master Cylinder is from a 1979-81ZX model and the booster is a stock reman unit. Keith the other critical issue is learning to drive the car properly so you don't use up your brakes. Learn to brake more consistantly, providing a gradual amount of pressure evenly and then get onto the gas pedal as smoothly and quickly as possible. Speed Secrets has a great section on this and I'd recommend getting the book if you don't have it. I found out the hard way cracking rotors on corvettes, and spreading calipers. Your ability to use less brake, and less abrupt brake will translate into a happier brake system. This may not jibe with what others do, but it works for me. Hope it helps you!

The wind tunnel operator was the reason my radiator IS ducted and that I have my front end configured the way it is. I think something was lost in the translation somewhere, but everything he advised I took to heart and am trying to translate onto my own chassis. I WILL try the front, mid and rear panel closeouts on my car if possible, if for no other reason, than to put this discussion to bed once and for all. Mike

So the title of this thread was "Looking for a few good candidates and their money." I've not started to collect donations for this effort yet, and I'd be just fine with not collecting donations. Jon, You seem like you're hell bent on dictating what we will and won't test. For the record, Matt's comments above MIRROR those of the wind tunnel operator during the last test. Now he didn't write a book on competition car aero, but the guy works in a windtunnel every day with ALL the NASCAR teams located in the region. His comments were simple. it's a dirty unibody chassis that was NOT designed for the advances seen in current auto platforms. likeing a 40 year old platform to a tube chassis nascar platform is a waste of text so lets just stop with the comparisons. Now, Matt and I, and others who are willing to spend the money and time to roll their cars thru the wind tunnel will take ideas and suggestions, but quite honestly, unless you want to get a group together and run your own tests, take the hint and back off on an idea that those conducting the test aren't hot on wasting valuable time to try. I'm not saying there won't be flat bottom panels associated with my car or a difuser. I am actively in the process of welding Dzeus fasteners to the chassis this coming week. I plan to fabricate an NUMBER of aero ideas that I plan to try, just to collect the data. Give us a chance to come up with our OWN plans since we will be the folks spending OUR OWN MONEY. Matt Isbell is doing more with this chassis than anyone else I'm aware of. I'll defer to his judgement any day and twice on Sunday. Chris, to your comments, I believe Matt was referring to what he sees any given weekend on other platforms. And if you follow any of the aero articles in GRM, you'll see those examples displayed. You are a smart guy, and you know well that what sometimes seems like a good idea in theory sometimes falls flat. So the point is that we will have very limited time in the tunnel. As with last time, we'll need to be practical in our approach. i'm not certain that we'll be able to pull off a number of verying and difficult tests while collecting data that each of the car owners needs for their specific application as well.

Found three issues when I unloaded the car and got it in the air. 1. Zero fuel pressure at the rail. 2. OIl leaking from a valve cover 3. Same Valve cover - Air oil separator is not working and allowing oil into the intake snorkel. I am to sick to mess with it further today. I managed to energize the fuel pump with an external power source, and still did not get any pressure to build at the fuel rail. Beyond that, I bagged it and called it a day. Spending the afternoon on the sofa watching Lincoln with the dogs. Mike

Guess I should comment on the instructing I did, ey? Thursday night I was feeling a bit iffy. Friday morning I woke up with head congestion and feeling like crap. There was no way I was going to get a replacement instructor with less than 24 hours notice, so I solder'ed on and drove thru flood conditions (Literally, due to the tropical storm coming up the east coast) to do the event. I know Stacy King appreciated it, as he had at least one other instructor bail out due to sickness. Saturday I got to instruct a guy about my age with a C5 Corvette, and a younger guy in a 2012 VW GTi. Unfortunately for the gentleman in the vette, we had a snafu with the EMS crew not being on site until 0930, and he was leaving at lunch time, so I was only able to instruct him at speed for one session. We went two wheels off once, but otherwise it went well and he said he had never been "shown" the line there. He has now!! Will, the guy in the GTi, had never been to NCCAR. NCCAR has NO elevation changes to speak of and is a LOT like Roebling Road, but with more curves. It is an excellent instructing track for those who do not get motion sickness AT ALL. However, if you run even the slightest risk, it will get you sick, which is one reason we have such a hard time finding instructors to do the course. Anyway, Will had a great attitude and was really picking it up. By his third session of the day, he was doing great, picking his line, picking up the pace and passing every car in his group except for a highly modified newest generation M3. An interesting side note is that the VW GTi has an electronic differential. Between his run groups, Will was able to "tune" the differential to suit this track and the experience driving it was night and day. I was shocked at the changes in the car and his driving input by one simple change. He also had just put on a set of the new BFG Rivols and I am now a fan of that tire. Holy smokes that thing had amazing grip and those tires never felt greasy. By about 1:30 my truck was packed up. I was feeling really under the weather, and not in the right frame of mind to troubleshoot the car with me feeling so ill. I had a meeting with Stacy and a separate meeting with Will and I gave him a check out ride and signed him off to solo. I was back home and in bed by 5PM. The moral of this story is sometimes your instructors aren't on top of their game. Sometimes they are. I shouldn't have been in ANY car this weekend, and certainly not instructing. But I'd made a commitment and I'm not one to break them when I make them... Next time if I start feeling iffy, I'll make the decision sooner. Mike

Godspeed Ross. You are missed and your legacy lives on with many of our cars. Mike

More highs and lows... Today I got the Zcar out on NCCAR for a session today. The video footage tells the tale. No more oil issues. But now I have an odd power/electrical/ignition/fuel issue... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VW_XYjpY-8&feature=youtube_gdata Mike

My TKO600 will eventually back an LS3/7 based build. It currently is being used with the 383 stroker but is a direct swap with the right bellhousing/flywheel/clutchkit.