CrayZ
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Posts posted by CrayZ
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I have a different theory.
Since I've been through all this, I can almost positively say that the axle was too short, pulled out of the cv cup, destroying said cup, and then trying to compress again, forcing the star further onto the shaft.
Maybe not though, i've been wrong before.
Basically your axle is to short, so fix it lol.
What about the spacers I put in? Check this video out. This is with the spacers in.
I think newzed is right. I think when the star moves towards the center of the axle it is "shortening" the axle
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Regarding the star "walking" on the shaft - it's either supposed to be free to move around, or it's supposed to stay in one place. But walking to a new spot and getting stuck so tight that you have to bang it off with a hammer can't be right. It's either a cause of the problem, or a result of the problem. Might be worth focusing on how and why that happens.
If the balls were pressing on the circlip, that force would be pushing against the star and cage, preventing it from getting stuck on the inner spline portion. Since the star is stuck, that suggests that the star walked doen the shaft first, got stuck, then held the balls against the clip until it popped out.
I've found that the weird small stuff is sometimes the clue to solving the big problem. Good luck.
Ive been thinking really hard about this and I'm almost positive this is what happened. Thanks for the observation
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Regarding the star "walking" on the shaft - it's either supposed to be free to move around, or it's supposed to stay in one place. But walking to a new spot and getting stuck so tight that you have to bang it off with a hammer can't be right. It's either a cause of the problem, or a result of the problem. Might be worth focusing on how and why that happens.
If the balls were pressing on the circlip, that force would be pushing against the star and cage, preventing it from getting stuck on the inner spline portion. Since the star is stuck, that suggests that the star walked doen the shaft first, got stuck, then held the balls against the clip until it popped out.
I've found that the weird small stuff is sometimes the clue to solving the big problem. Good luck.
I e been thinking really hard about this and I'm almost positive this is what happened. Thanks for the observation
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Page 10 here looks interesting, although the whole catalog is worth browsing - http://www.ntn.ca/Catalogues/NTN/CVJ-ForIndusrial_en.pdf
Here's one of the Pathfinder axle threads, only because it was mentioned, sounds like you're going a different way - http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/72805-using-pathfinder-and-zxt-axles-to-install-30-spline-nismo-lsd-kit-56k/page-3#entry942447
Hmmm it sure is.. Looks like the are going with a double clip setup as well.. I'm pretty confident that stoping the star from walking on the axle and my beafed up cir clips will do the job.
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Hmm, I can't tell from the pics but are the strut tubes plum? Might just be the angle of the picture but wondering why the big metal patch over the strut tube. Honestly if they were really out of plum the strut wouldn't fit inside the tube without being "forced" in. I would check with JohnC about your measurements since he does provide the service of sectioning strut tubes. I am wondering if the overall length of the tube is at play here? My diff looks like it is mounted slightly higher than yours but take that with a grain of salt.
Lets see if your new fix will help any. There def should be a snap ring in that grove which limits the axle travel from side to side but doesn't come into play before you hit the axle stops. I imagine that if the stops were not installed, all the "limited" side to side movement would be on that snap ring which would fail.
Weird thing is that the cir clip keeps failing.. even after my proper measurements. It should be working fine with the new spacers. Ill check with john about the lengths. As far as the diff being lower than yours i sure would like to know why.. The big aluminum mount that holds the rear of the diff is an off the shelf unit. It should put the diff in only one spot.. also im not sure what you mean by if the suspension is "plum"
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Oh yeah, check this out!
I had some scrap cups lying around so i figured.. why not
bet the bearings dont round these edges off!Im not done with them yet. I couldnt get the mig to function properly so the weld are shit for now. I still havent decided if i want to run them.. BUT i probably will.
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Hmm, ripping it all out doesn't seem like the right answer to me.
Check out my pics in this old thread:
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/75896-axle-stop-mm-q45-diff-problem/
Starting at the axles stops - your axles are def more at an angle with the stops than mine are. I have about 15k miles on this axles setup and plenty track days on them and they have never busted apart. Like I stated before, 1TUFFZ also has as many and if not more track days and only did what you did once because he had too much camber.
Starting off with that basic info, what do we see is causing your extreme angle during full compression and droop. That is where we start, too many people on the site running this setup to just thrown in the towel. Measure your strut housing length, I am curious to know the distance from your stub axle to the gland nut.
Trust me the last thing i want to do is scrap all this stuff.. Touching on a couple issues first id like to bring to light the "star" that slides over the axle. Today when i was pulling apart a q45 axle i noticed that the axle had a shelf on it that pinned the star up against the snap ring preventing the star from moving AT ALL.. Now with that said, here is my axle...
There is nothing stopping the star from wedging itself down the shaft, Which it has done already.. I didnt pay much attention to it becuase i thought it was suppose to float on the ends of the axle. Now with that said i am machining a groove just below where the star sits when it is pressed up against the existing snap ring. I will be filling that groove with another snap ring to lock the star in place at the furthest possible position away from the center of the axle.
I agree that there is something not right about the angles of the shafts.. I would love to address this and any suspension problems that might be present. I tried my best to understand what you where asking me to measure and this is what i came up with.
I measured from that shelf that you can clearly see all the way to the bottom of the "strut housing" im going to call it. I pretty much measured the "tube" and came up with 12 & 5/8" the kicker is that the passenger side measures 12 & 3/8".......... NOT happy abou that.
Now in case there was any confusion I also took this measurement.
driver measured 10.5" passenger measured slightly over 10 & 1/8" I hope this is what you were looking for. If not just give it to me in retard terms i wont be odfended
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It is my understanding that you are gonna go thru everything you are now if you go with a short nose (lack of compatable stub axles and half-shafts). The R200 swap is proven and simple. If you go to a long nose R200, you will need to shorten your current driveshaft, or just buy one from JCI ($235?). I would avoid MM if you are already frustrated enough (unless you are into that sort of thing). Buy your 4-bolt companion flanges from Chequered Flag Racing, unless JMortensen still has some. What outer stub axle do you have (the one that goes thru the hub and gets torqued to over 200#)? It sucks you are going thru this, but if you got that car for the advertised price or less, you still got a good deal. So, hang in there. It's only money and you can't take it with you and the government won't let you pass it to your kids. In this country it is best to be "disabled" or plausibly destitute. Spend it all, then you can have 39% of mine. From what I hear I don't deserve it anyway.
lol! the only thing that is bugging me is that i will have to change EVERYTHING! mustache bar, mounting hardware etc. (at least i think) Im not sure what stub axles i have? not sure how to tell
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One more thing fellas, ive been reading that the short nose R200 and R230 are the same lengths. Could i use all of my exsiting mounting hardware driveshaft, yada yada for a short nose 200? that would be great becuase i dont feel like starting over.. If i could pull the r230 out and bolt a short nose r200 in its place that would be awesome. IF this is possible is there a specific short nose r200 i should look for?
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You did good getting an R200 with axles for that price! You really want the 4-bolt axles and you will need companion flanges to match. You (may) need to shorten the zx-t axles. The only way to know is to go thu the axle length verification process that I have described. I really think the smartest way to verify that the set up is the correct length is to check with the CV boots pushed up on the shafts so you can actually look down into the outer CV housing to be sure. Some cars need shortened axle shafts and some don't. If you need shortened shafts, I'd put out a parts wanted post fishing for forum members who bought JMoretensen's shortened shafts but never got around to using them-I'm sure you understand that a lot of folks can get burned out on these projects! The zx-t axle shafts don't "float;" they are fixed axially in the inner CV and all the dynamic length adjustability happens only at the outer CV - there is a lot less movement in the system. I'm hitting mine with slicks, a T56 with a stock LS2 and so far, so good.
Thats comforting to know becuase i have had it with with floating axles..
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You will also need companion flange adaptors or modified companion flanges, to get the 4-bolt pattern right. I use modified companion flanges. The short axle shaft gets removed from the driver's side axle, and installed in the passenger side axle (can't swap diff stubs, different lengths) and the long passenger side axle gets dumped...short axle is front driver's axle shaft from a WD21 pathfinder 4WD (1990-1993), and a spacer. Your milage may vary, that's just how I did it.
so your saying that you modified the companion flanges yourself instead of buying them from MM? and are you also saying that you did not need custom axles, you just used the one from a pathfinder and swapped the driver for passenger on the zx-t's?
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well dang I just lost a huge edit to that post, and I am not prepared to re-type it.
Ha, I'm going to weld in the "upgraded" c clips and see what happens. If not, I found a clutch type long nose 200 with zx-t axles for 800
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You really can't worry about how your car lines up to the fenders-your fenders have been cut and aftermarket flares have been installed. For rideheight, the best place to measure is the bottom of the rocker panels because that is a straight line. Plus 1/2 inch isn't gonna make or break you. My car isn't "square" at the fenders either and even my un-modified S10 truck isn't "square" from the factory. If you run out of interest in he diff/axle system that you have, the basic R200 system is a good option and is much simpler than what you have suffered thru. I've been in your situation and I feel your frustration-it is torture.
As far as the suspension is concerned your probably right. But I know for a fact that the driver rear tire does infact sit to the left it is very obvious when standing behind the car. I guess ill just have to live with it. If I decided to run the 200 what would you suggest as far as axles go? I think the 230 is a short nose so I would need to find a short nose 200 to keep my same driveshaft and mounts? I'd like to stay away from floating axles as they clearly aren't working well for me. What would be a good option to hold 450-500? I'm still very new to these rear end setups and un familiar with the differences in axles and diffs
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I'm going to take my trashed cups and weld in some circle peices of plate steel in place of the c clips. I figure it will keep the bearings inside the cup. I figure at this point I don't have anything to loose with the old cups. If it doesnt hold together I'm going to swap in a 200.
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Well guys.. I'm about out of suggestions here.. Everything is inline, tight, within tolerances etc. I'm have no clue what to do at this point.. I'm considering setting up a go pro under the car to see what happens, other than that I'm truly clueless as to how this can continue to occur. The only thing that seems off to me is the fact that the driver rear wheel sticks out farther towards the fender than the passenger does. Also the driver rear coilover adjustment ring sits almost a half inch lower to match the ride height of the passenger rear wheel.
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Regarding the star "walking" on the shaft - it's either supposed to be free to move around, or it's supposed to stay in one place. But walking to a new spot and getting stuck so tight that you have to bang it off with a hammer can't be right. It's either a cause of the problem, or a result of the problem. Might be worth focusing on how and why that happens.
If the balls were pressing on the circlip, that force would be pushing against the star and cage, preventing it from getting stuck on the inner spline portion. Since the star is stuck, that suggests that the star walked doen the shaft first, got stuck, then held the balls against the clip until it popped out.
I've found that the weird small stuff is sometimes the clue to solving the big problem. Good luck.
This Is a good point. I think the star being wedged down the shaft is a direct result from after the failure. Once the incident occurred I got out and noticed massive movement back and forth. By the time I got it home 1-2 miles the axle would not slide inside the cup anymore.
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I'm going to check and see if the cups are lined up tonight. Maybe they are off center and I could find a way to mount the diff further forward and higher.. I'm pretty sure they are lined perfectly though. All the mounting holes are in line and square. I don't see how the diff could be further back than it needs to be. I know the previous owner made a custom lower diff mount but the big one that bolts to the rear of the diff is centered and mounted firmly and the rest of the mount kit is out the box stuff.
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Well I can tell you that the diff has about 1" before it touches the top. There is a square peice of "frame" or structure peice that runs parallel to the axles above the diff. The tallest part of the diff has about 1" of clearance before it makes contact with it. I don't possibly see how it could be raised up unless it was moved forward a couple inches.
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I have a q45 r230 with the MM convertion axles and cups. I'm looking to get rid of this setup and swap a long nose r200 in its place. Lmk what you have.
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Sorry I can't see the video links because I am at work. Is it possible for you to measure the height from ground to the bottom of the diff? Does anyone think that some of the gap can be made up with adjustable control arms? Being able to pull the bottom of the strut housing more inboard.
No worries, maybe you can check them out when you get home and tell me what you think. I will measure the distance from the ground to the bottom of the diff when I get home tonight. I also just remembered that the previous owner cut the struts and re welded them together to make the springs work. From what I've read this is common? I'm not sure if the fact that the rear end seems to be shifted towards the driver side is common? I'm also curious why the control arm seems to be sitting higher even with the springs being equal on both sides.
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All suspension is stock besides the ground control coilovers. Either spacers or longer axle are clearly needed in my application due to the ride height (check the videos). My dif sits quite low and as you can see. The angle of the driveshafts are quite extreme. The thing that gets me is that out of all the other lowered Z's I've seen my diff and axle angle is WAY lower and more extreme.. I don't understand why mine is so different. I would also like to add that the passenger side is in very good shape. The grease is fresh play within tolerance. I also measured to make sure that the springs where at the same length. Both rear springs are adjusted to the same height but the driver side (problem side) control arm actually sits about 1/2" higher than the passenger at full droop. I also noticed that the entire axle/dif setup seems to sit towards the driver side more by about an inch. It looks to be "offset" towards the left if your looking at it from the rear of the vehicle. I hope that makes sense.
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Thanks for doing that work and posting those videos.
It seems like the star/bearing race/cage walking down the shaft might be the problem, not a result of the problem. For whatever reason the star walks, pulling the balls with it. If the cage and star walk far enough inward, that makes the end of the axle get closer to the stops, effectively. After the star walks down the shaft, is it possible for the balls to be on the circlip and the end of the axle to be on the stop, binding the axle end and balls between the stop and the circlip, until one or both give? If you could lock the star in place at the end of the shaft it might solve the problem.
Just a guess. I can't imagine that the star is supposed to move on those splines while in use. You might compare a stock Q45 shaft to the MM shafts and see if the star can walk on the stock shaft, and measure the distance from balls in the star wheel and the axle end, with the star walked inward, and see if it's longer then the cup can take. A fix might be as simple as peening some splines on the inside of the star to stop it from walking.
As far as shaft length - I can see that I missed something when looking at the drawings and the shortest shaft may not be at full compression. The hub doesn't tilt when it pivots around the control arm axis, it stays essentially perpendicular to the ground. Two things happening, one pulling it away and one drawing it closer. Looks like pulling away wins based on your videos, the shaft is shortest with the wheels hanging (as jmortensen has said in previous posts).
Thansk again, those videos show a lot.
No problem, I hope these videos will help me and others understand exactly what is going on behind the driver seat. As far as the star walking on the axle ends goes, having taken them apart 4-5 times now I'm pretty sure they are designed to walk slightly. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. With that said I think fixing them in place is a good idea. This could be blasphemy I don't know. If the star is wedging itself down the shaft and inturn popping the circlip out, that still doesn't explain the axle stops being ground to hell.
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So the cups separated from the ball bearings with the spacers installed? Seems impossible unless something is loose. Are you positive the differential and suspension mounted solid? Something may be moving or deflecting under load.
Forgot to add that everything looks good as far as i can tell. Ive had the car 2 weeks now.. (me rolling my eyes)
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After further inspection i found all the ball bearings/cages to be intact. The only thign that was strange was the little star peice that sits inside the cage has wedged itself pretty good down the axle. I had to knock it loose with a hammer..
bet the bearings dont round these edges off!
Q45 VLSD tearing up cages
in Drivetrain
Posted
I agree, I'm not a fan of the floating axle design. I think the combination of spacers and pinning the star as far away from the center of the axle will fix the problem.