70 Cam Guy Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I have been looking at Innovate wideband kits online tonight and on youtube. This is more of a personal preference type of question but is anyone annoyed waiting for the sensor heater to warm up? In the videos it doesn't seem a whole lot longer than it takes for the fuel pump to cycle but it's definitely a blocker to the simple key-in and go pace. Do all widebands go through a warming cycle like the Innovate? It seems like many run them but are these not really meant to stay on the car once the tuning is done? It seems like it should be no problem to keep it installed but I wasn't sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat1 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) Innovative sucks.I had one. It lasted for about 5 miles then wouldn't work anymore. I found there website and there forum and read post after post of the same problems. Stay away I have a Zeitronix ZT-2 and it great. It works everytine, requires no calibration. Warm up takes very little time. Oh yea and it works. Edited July 17, 2011 by pat1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelsonian Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Not to jack your thread as I too am interested in peoples opinions and answers to the question, but what about AEM brand offerings and again it's use on a daily basis after initial tuning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I don't see how so many people can't read the instructions that come with the Innovate LC-1. It says IN THE INSTRUCTIONS that you MUST ground the sensor ground wire to the same place all the other engine sensors are grounded...OR IT WILL NOT WORK. There are two grounds...one is a sensor ground, the other a power ground. Every LC-1 install that I've fixed, that didn't work (all seven of them, including mine for 8) was a grounding error. Yes, the grounding error can kill the controller. That's what happens when you suck 8 amps of heater current through the .08 amp sensor line. I know, there was a batch of LC-1s that made it out of the factory with a bad component inside the box. Innovate took them all back, and repaired them all for free. Anyway, I've run my LC-1 in my car every day for over a year now, with street use for the last four months. No Issues at all, once the grounding issues were taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) I don't see how so many people can't read the instructions that come with the Innovate LC-1. It says IN THE INSTRUCTIONS that you MUST ground the sensor ground wire to the same place all the other engine sensors are grounded...OR IT WILL NOT WORK. There are two grounds...one is a sensor ground, the other a power ground. Every LC-1 install that I've fixed, that didn't work (all seven of them, including mine for 8) was a grounding error. Yes, the grounding error can kill the controller. That's what happens when you suck 8 amps of heater current through the .08 amp sensor line. I know, there was a batch of LC-1s that made it out of the factory with a bad component inside the box. Innovate took them all back, and repaired them all for free. Anyway, I've run my LC-1 in my car every day for over a year now, with street use for the last four months. No Issues at all, once the grounding issues were taken care of. I've been using an LM-1 for years now with no real issues. The warmup only takes ~30 seconds and it's up and running, plus you can preset it to whatever output you want during this time. EGO feedback is generally open loop during warmup anyway, so how exactly is this a problem? Edited July 17, 2011 by TimZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chemicalblue Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I agree with Tim, Ive been using an Lc1 for years with no issues. Yes, wide-band sensors need to be heated. A lot of people make the mistake of mounting them at the bottom of the exhaust where water collects when warming up the car. That will cause failures as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachary Ard Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 14point7 widebands have also proven to be pretty durable for strip and street use. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I've been using the same LM-1 with the XD-16 gauge on my Z since 2003. I changed the sensor 1 time. The only issues I had was with the grounding like what has been said above. I even have it hooked up to my Tec3r stand alone ecu, for closed loop, and VE tuning if I prefer... It is a tool that takes following the directions to a tee though. To me, a WB that can't be re calibrated, is one that isn't worth my trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat1 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I don't see how so many people can't read the instructions that come with the Innovate LC-1. It says IN THE INSTRUCTIONS that you MUST ground the sensor ground wire to the same place all the other engine sensors are grounded...OR IT WILL NOT WORK. There are two grounds...one is a sensor ground, the other a power ground. Every LC-1 install that I've fixed, that didn't work (all seven of them, including mine for 8) was a grounding error. Yes, the grounding error can kill the controller. That's what happens when you suck 8 amps of heater current through the .08 amp sensor line. I know, there was a batch of LC-1s that made it out of the factory with a bad component inside the box. Innovate took them all back, and repaired them all for free. Anyway, I've run my LC-1 in my car every day for over a year now, with street use for the last four months. No Issues at all, once the grounding issues were taken care of. Yes, I did read the direction and followed them to a T. I also was on the phone with innovate for over an hour and all they said and I quote " we have have problems with this unit please send it back" anyway google innovate wideband problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duragg Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I thought they all used the same basic Bosch sensor? My AEM doesn't seem to take long to get going. Never bothered me much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Yes, that's exactly what I said, Pat1. They had a bad batch make it out and they have been taking them back, and replacing/repairing them for free. Anyway, the Innovate and the 14point7 widebands are both pretty good, and inexpensive. I think the AEM uses a different sensor, but you can get the sensors (both types) from the local parts store. The Innovate one is the upstream O2 sensor from a 2004 VW Jetta, (at least that's the one I'm using.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) To answer the O.P. directly about "do all WBO2's go through this warmup cycle"---YES. This is driven by federal regulations for the engines going onto closed-loop operation within 30 seconds of startup. (This is the goal of minimizing 'cold start emissions' by forcing closed-loop operation and catalyst light-off ASAP after starting of the engine.) That became the standard, our WBO2's were derived from OEM offerings, not the other way around. Almost universally the heating process is aided by FAST IDLE, but starting the car, or keying on the power and relying on the internal heater to warm the sensor...are two different scenarios. Heater alone it will take 30 seconds at the most. Turning the car on to fast idle from cold, and using the heater will drop that time---that is the design criteria to pass OEM Emissions Tests. If someone keys on the car, but doesn't start it....when they do start it the sensor is available for closed-loop operation immediately. The they just fire it off, the sizing of the sensor heater will ALWAYS insure the car is in closed loop no longer than 30 seconds after that point according to OEM Emissions requirements. As stated, they use the Upstream Sensor from a VW, this has fast enough response, and good enough resolution in the OEM computers to actually read individual cylinder firings and misfiring to trigger diagnostic codes. It's a very fast working and durable sensor. It's not 'idiot proof' for hookup, it's really a fairly sophisticated analytical sensor and care needs to be taken in installation. Anybody who worked with Megasquirt early on realized it didn't take a lot of ground-plane voltage to screw/skew your readings or mess up your readings. Low voltages generated by the sensor require a good unified ground-reference in common with the rest of the sensors or you can skew one or the other through ground plane voltages. When you compare it to lab-grade Horiba EGO Machines, the performance for the cost is actually really amazing when you consider the costs involved. Edited July 18, 2011 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70 Cam Guy Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Thanks everyone for your thoughts, history and advice Knowing the OE solution to sensor replacement is great!! I did end up ordering the XD-16 gauge with LC-1 controller. I will be sure to mount it, and wire things correctly. As my RB swap evolves, I see a greater need to know where my air fuel ratios are through the rpm range. Next to the boost gauge, it definitely is a must have at this point. Edited July 19, 2011 by 70 Cam Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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