Benz Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'll make this quick and dirty here. I have a '77 280z shell with pretty much nothing but the running gear and the doors attached. It's a 411-yellow car (With some...extra documentation), so I've decided to go ahead and commit financial suicide and build it, because hey, it's not often the universe drops good-condition S30 shells in one's lap. Only problem is... I need brake hardlines. The shell has none. Wise man say one must stop in order to go! I've read threads in this very forum saying that the easiest route is to just get bulk stainless line, and bend/shape it to my tastes. From you fine gentlemen (and ladies?!), I'd like an actionable answer: 1) Confirmation of this, in which case, I'll go get some sweet stainless from Summit/somewhere, and just go rent the tools necessary to bend and shape them. 2) If anyone *knows* of a place to get a full pre-bent kit for a '77, a link would be appreciated, or at least a referral. I haven't been able to find anyone on the web who sells it for my year and model. Thanks, and you guys rock. HybridZ has been a WEALTH of information, and a very supportive community so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 The easiest route to take is the Pre-Bent Lines from Classic Tube. It's an expensive option, but that's what plug and play will cost. If you're bending/flaring them yourself, stainless lines are not recommended as SS is stiff and not as easily pliable as other brake line materials. I've read that people like to use Cunifer Lines since they're easy to form and flare. This option is considerably cheaper as well. Of course, there are other options in between the two, such as buying pre-flared lines and bending them to match the shell. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snailed Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 ^ That's all good advice. I/we make SS lines for most of the cars we build at work. It looks nice and if you have a good hydraulic flaring tool it's not hard to work with. It does bend a little harder than mild steel, but it's not too bad. We don't use any special bending tools with it. The main concern is that you use seamless tube and make very clean and square cuts since the tapered seat you are going to form won't be very malleable and leaks will occur if you don't have a very smooth sealing surface. On the other end of it the copper/nickle alloy tubing is very very easy to bend and you probably won't even need tools if you are good with your hands. It's about $1.70/ft through NAPA for 3/16"(PN 6413347). It's seats really well also so leaks are very unlikely even if it's your first time flaring tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) I just bent all new lines for my 72 240z and it was a suck job. I bought stock line in a spool from Advance Auto, bent it and flared it. It was a pain. Had to do several lines twice because of bad flares. Had to make several lines twice because of a pinched bend. Had to several lines twice because I made a good flare only to learn that I forgot to put the line nut on first. If you are trying to re-use the stock mounting looms to hold the lines to the chassis, and you have a source for pre-made lines that follow original specs: I would pay a thousand dollars to avoid doing that job again. My hands still hurt from that job. But, maybe you have a rotisserie-I did it on my back and it sucked. I am a surgeon so I'm decent with my hands, and I have a $500 a month car work budget-I'd buy them if they cost even $2000. Edited December 29, 2011 by RebekahsZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 There is somebody selling a full set for $50 on the Parts for sale forum. Listing is something like "cleaning out garage." or "garage full of stuff". Looks like 280z lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luseboy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 On my '73, pretty much every connector stripped when I was removing brake parts, so I decided to replace all the hard lines. I haven't done it yet, but I will do it soon enough. What I found out is: the stock lines are 3/16", and all the stock parts take a 10mm x 1.0 connector. In my searching around, I found that pretty much the best hardline you can get is the stuff from fedhill. It's not the cheapest, but not too expensive, and can be seamlessly bent without tools. They make a really nice flaring tool too, but it costs about $300.00. For their line, a simple cheap flaring tool is fine. I am doing a bunch of brake upgrades as well, so I am taking a bit of a different approach. Also, I plan to replace all the fuel hardlines with their stuff, the stock sizes are 6mm for the fuel line that goes to the carbs/efi, and 4mm for the return line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Thank you everyone for your responses, all this is exactly what I need to know. I've got a compulsion to "set it up", and apply what extra foresight and elbow grease I can while I have access to the car's naughty parts in this stripped down state... Next question: Do I stand to "gain" any benefits by stepping up to 1/4" sized tubing from 3/16" when I'm running these? Is there any performance benefit to the greater volume of compressible fluid in the lines, like for if I'm moving bigger brake parts? If stock size is 3/16", I imagine that the components like cylinders are set up for that, and adapters(?) would be required if we're going to run bigger. Or not?? There is somebody selling a full set for $50 on the Parts for sale forum. Listing is something like "cleaning out garage." or "garage full of stuff". Looks like 280z lines. This ad says that they were pulled off a '72/'73 240. I feel like this would be swappable, though...and that's a good price. Do you know off the top of your head if they fit? Lines are lines...? Edited December 29, 2011 by Benz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luseboy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Next question: Do I stand to "gain" any benefits by stepping up to 1/4" sized tubing from 3/16" when I'm running these? Is there any performance benefit to the greater volume of compressible fluid in the lines, like for if I'm moving bigger brake parts? This is what I am interested in as well. My gut tells me know because the bigger the tube, the lower the pressure. But I'm not sure if pressure is more important in a brake system, or if fluid volume is. Someone more knowledgeable, please chime in on this! My other gut feeling is to not mess with that if you're going for a totaly stock system. But if you're going for upgrades to the brakes (4 piston fronts, bigger master cylinder, rear disks, etc.) maybe it would be a good idea. I guess my other question for the more knowledgeable person than me is the same question but asking about the clutch hardline, would that be better to be larger if a wilwood 7/8's clutch master cylinder is used? Hope I'm not thread hi-jacking ... but it's all relevant, and I'd assume you have similar questions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 My little tidbits I picked up: There is a seller on ebay selling preflared, braized, cunifer lines for older datsuns, they come with a variety of lengths to make the install pretty easy. Communication was real fast and I received my lines in a few days. Probably about 50$? Don't give yourself more problems, upgrading line thickness means quite a few adapters which can be quite costly as male 10mm bubble flare adapters are very expensive, and would serve as a choke point. Unless you are running without a brake booster and running custom calipers I really see no benefit. Same thickness stops cars that are much larger and faster. I do suggest a quality flaring tool if you are planning on flaring the lines, which you most likely will have end up doing. I snapped my cheap flaring tool on my 5th or 6th try, and only managed to make 1 decent flare out of all those trials. And you can find many a testimonial regarding how the flaring tool at o'reileys or shucks easily snap. I picked up a ridgid double flaring tool that I'm looking forward to using . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcheeze36 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 There is a seller on ebay selling preflared, braized, cunifer lines for older datsuns, they come with a variety of lengths to make the install pretty easy. Communication was real fast and I received my lines in a few days. Probably about 50$? Is this the one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-metal-brake-line-kit-Nissan-Datsun-1970-1996-change-corroded-lines-/220923285795?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3A240Z&vxp=mtr&hash=item33700dd123#ht_7501wt_922 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) This is what I am interested in as well. My gut tells me know because the bigger the tube, the lower the pressure. But I'm not sure if pressure is more important in a brake system, or if fluid volume is. Someone more knowledgeable, please chime in on this! My other gut feeling is to not mess with that if you're going for a totaly stock system. But if you're going for upgrades to the brakes (4 piston fronts, bigger master cylinder, rear disks, etc.) maybe it would be a good idea. I guess my other question for the more knowledgeable person than me is the same question but asking about the clutch hardline, would that be better to be larger if a wilwood 7/8's clutch master cylinder is used? Hope I'm not thread hi-jacking ... but it's all relevant, and I'd assume you have similar questions... Brakes are basically a simple hydraulic system: The pressure (force/area) will be the same on both sides of the system and is what makes the hydraulic system work. Due to this principle the forces on one end (master cylinder) will result in a force on the other (brake caliper) the size of which is dependent on the ratio of the two piston areas. The size of the line should make no difference since it is just acting as a "link" between the two ends of the system. Edited December 30, 2011 by h4nsm0l3m4n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) The add I saw on the forum for brake lines showed a picture that had the proportion valve on the firewall. On my 72 Z-car, the proportion valve is on the floorpan under the rear axle. So, it looks to me like those lines are for a late 260 or a 280z, but I can't be positive. After my experience, I'd say $50 is a pretty good gamble (that is cheaper than a spool of tubing and a flaring tool), even if you lose your money and come up with nothing. It is just that if you are trying to have your lines go thru the stock looms, it is pretty hard to get the bends right-you will definitely need to bend the same line several times and do a fair amount of cussing, not that there is anything wrong with that! I used a cheap flaring tool from the parts store. One broke, but I got the entire car's lines (fuel and brake) before the second flaring tool broke (it still hasn't). Go to youtube and watch several videos on double-flaring brake lines (there are some good ones), practice on some scrap, and you'll be a pro in no time. Mount your flaring tool in a vice before flaring. Expect to have to re-flare the first few lines you make. On your question of brake line diameter. See the post above this one, he is correct. It is simple engineering physics: you want the line as SMALL as practicable, not bigger. Force=Mass X Area. You want the cross sectional area of the line as mall as possible, or you will have to push harder and farther on the pedal. Plus, bending small tubing without kinking is easy. It was very hard to put tight bends in my 3/8" fuel line without kinking it. In fact, I left one substantial kink in my fuel line because I had already made the dam_ line 3 times and I'd had it. There is no performance to be gained by modifying the brake lines-stock is best. Edited January 1, 2012 by RebekahsZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeeNoEvil Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Cheapest place I have found on-line for copper/nickel brake line is tooltopia.com. They have a better price then even the Napa dealer can get it for, as well as brake tools. Line is cheap compared to the labor, take your time stay focused and $100 worth of material can easily be a $600 to $1,000 finished product. Well worth the effort, do it right and you'll wish they were on the outside of the car for everyone to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Is this the one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-metal-brake-line-kit-Nissan-Datsun-1970-1996-change-corroded-lines-/220923285795?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3A240Z&vxp=mtr&hash=item33700dd123#ht_7501wt_922 Yup that's the one, they sent me replacement lines real quick when I found 3 of the lines were bubble flared. The lines bend real easy, easy enough to add a few bends to take up slack if the line is too long for a given space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheeler Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 anyone have any pictures of a ground up brake line install? Looking for ideas on how you routed the lines, clipped them and if you used bulkheads to pass through the inner fender. I have a few from some race Zs that may help the group out, but would still like to see others solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I just wanted to update this thread with my decision. As of this writing, 1/26/2012, Classic Tube's 240z and 260/280z kits are on clearance. I picked up a full SS prebent brake line kit for $299 & taxes; usually $425 or so. I may regret this decision later, but I'd really like to move along to other parts of this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The add I saw on the forum for brake lines showed a picture that had the proportion valve on the firewall. On my 72 Z-car, the proportion valve is on the floorpan under the rear axle. So, it looks to me like those lines are for a late 260 or a 280z, but I can't be positive. The change was in '73. The proportioning valve was moved to the firewall, due to a change in the design, that used the pressure from the right front brake to control the rear brake pressure proportionally to that front brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I just bent all new lines for my 72 240z and it was a suck job. I bought stock line in a spool from Advance Auto, bent it and flared it. It was a pain. Had to do several lines twice because of bad flares. Had to make several lines twice because of a pinched bend. Had to several lines twice because I made a good flare only to learn that I forgot to put the line nut on first. If you are trying to re-use the stock mounting looms to hold the lines to the chassis, and you have a source for pre-made lines that follow original specs: I would pay a thousand dollars to avoid doing that job again. My hands still hurt from that job. But, maybe you have a rotisserie-I did it on my back and it sucked. I am a surgeon so I'm decent with my hands, and I have a $500 a month car work budget-I'd buy them if they cost even $2000. Well that sums it up. I'm not doing it myself. I didn't follow the advice of others on this forum regarding sandblasting my own car and I severely regret it. BIG mistake. I will listen to others who have been through the same experience. Thanks for the update on the thread!! Edited January 28, 2012 by proxlamus© Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcheeze36 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I just wanted to update this thread with my decision. As of this writing, 1/26/2012, Classic Tube's 240z and 260/280z kits are on clearance. I picked up a full SS prebent brake line kit for $299 & taxes; usually $425 or so. I may regret this decision later, but I'd really like to move along to other parts of this project. Found this thread on another site whole searching. Hopefully the kits were updated since then: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?28750-Problems-with-Classic-Tube-Brake-Lines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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