opinions needed, sourcing a v8,newbie with stupid beginner q

[Guest Anonymous]

OK..............first actual post for info by a newbie, so bear with me..........whew.

I need some input on where everyone sourced their engines. Boneyards, crate motors, rolling cars, etc. How did you formulate the plan to get the engine, be it long or short block, that you wanted and did it ultimately end up being the most cost efficient way to go about it?

I also have this weird itch to do a 5.0 Ford swap............call me crazy (YOU'RE CRAZY!!), but I always like doing the different thing. Anybody out there even considered this? I saw one guy who did a 302 Cleveland.........did not seem that it would be over my head. Fabbing some engine mounts would be the biggest hump. I however will be looking for a later model to donate parts (visions of Vortecs dancing in my head). Any info regarding this concept, including trans and related ideas, that anyone has would be appreciated. Oh yea, would the JTR bible be applicable at all to someone doing a Ford swap? I have never seen the book, so...........

 

PEACE

Andy

[Guest Locutus]

Ford won't be your most cost effective way to build a V8Z, thought the 302 is a great engine, Ford parts are SO MUCH MORE expensive to get comparable power out of the engine. I race a ford truck, and have been thinking it might be cheaper to build a new chevy race truck than fixing the ford every week. Just a thought

[Mikelly]

The same time I ordered my 383 stroker and paid $3900 for it, oil pan to intake, delivered to my door step, My best friend built up a 426 Stroker Ford motor based on a 351 Windsor truck block. We used the same type of build, aluminum heads and such, but his was fuel injected and mine is carbed... His cost over $10,000 to build through a friend... Fords are great, I'm not a "Brand" basher, but beware that tech data is limited and it will absolutley cost you much more... Headers alone for our respective builds cost my buddy more than double what they cost me, and his were not ceramic coated....

 

Now, my recommendation is to build your shortblock with a forged crank. I don't care which "Brand". The rods should be good race prepped units, and as for pistons, don't use cast, but I personally think Hypereutiectics are fine... Use ARP bolts and studs, quality bearings and Total Seal or C&A Zgap rings...

Finish it with a quality Hi Vol oil pump and Tsump pan with the goodies installed.

 

Heads..Aluminum, period. Get a nice set of aluminum heads and a roller (I use a roller Hydraulic) valve train.

 

Elsewhere in this category I give a more detailed description of why I strongly recommend a crate motor... Find it, read it, then ask some more questions!

 

Even if you go the Ford route, buy the JTR maual and read it 10 times. Then read it again. Trust me on that one!

 

Mike

 

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[Guest John Adkins]

Rustbucket,

Have you seen this site?

http://datsun.getyours.com/v8/Ford_302/ford_302.htm

 

There's some pretty good pictures and info on putting a Ford 302 in a Z. Motor mounts don't look very complicated at all....

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree with Mike, chevy is the way to go , availability and expense of parts, both stock and hi-performance being the main reason. Even if you dont build a billy bad a$$ motor like mike and some of the other guys here. There is a wealth of info on this site reguarding chevy swaps, and I doubt you would ever run against a problem that someone has'nt already solved here. As for the jtr book, I would consider it a must have item. Plus it serves as a good coffee table book to show your na-sayer friends when they say your crazy... Book mark this site and come here often. The guys here have "BEEN THERE DONE THAT". Lots of info and help from a really good bunch of fellers will make your project fun fun fun till your daddy takes your "z car" away... Tony

 

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74 260, early 350,K.B.pistons,edelbrock manifold,carb,and cam,202 cast iron heads.Let the transformation begin.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by the rustbucket:

 

I need some input on where everyone sourced their engines.

 

Rustbucket,

Since you are from Calif., you will ultimately have to face the State smog referee and If I understand the current rules regarding engine swaps, the source of the replacement engine will

be a significant issue. Presumably it must come from some specific make, year, model

car (no trucks)that is the same year as your

Z or newer, and must have all the smog eqpt.

that was inatalled originally on the donor

engine. That include smog pump, heat riser air cleaner, etc. No aftermarket carburetors,

heads,intake or exhaust manifolds (headers)

or other parts unless they carry a CARB exemption that covers the donor year/model for that part.

 

Of course they can't see the internals but you still will have to pass the emmissions

test, which might be tough if you use a wild

cam, for example. Or an 8" harmonic balancer

on a 383 would be a dead giveaway your stock

350 is something other than it seems. If the casting no. on your block is for an engine mfd. earlier than your Z, then presumably it wouldn't pass.

 

Although I have yet to experinece getting a

straight engine swap through the referee, I was involved in getting a kit car passed

a few years ago and all of the above applied. Hopefully someone from Calif. who

has been through it with a Z engine transplant could give us the benefit of their

experience.

 

The last thing you want to happen is to spend big bucks and time, say, installing

a hi po crate engine (not approved as a

'replacement' engine)replete with trick headers, heads,induction system and have it

all shot down by some hard nosed referee

"just following the rules".

 

Gene H

[Guest John Adkins]

I'm in California as well. As I understand it, cars 30 years old are no longer required to have smog checks. So if you have '74 or newer Z, then you should be concerned. Mine is a '71, so I think I'm in the clear .

 

Can anyone else in California clarify?

 

Oh, and here's a link to the CARB engine swap page:

http://smogcheck.ca.gov/smogweb/smog/enginechange.asp

 

Later,

 

John

[74_5.0L_Z]

Rustbucket,

I am in the process of putting a 1989 5.0L from a mustang police car into an early 1974 260Z. The engine and T5 transmission are installed. The brakes and suspension are complete. I am having a driveshaft made. The wiring is complete(I am using the factory 5.0 fuel injection). The paint is done.

 

I have been working on the project for a year and am nearly ready to start the car. I too wanted to be different and use a nonchevy V8. This path was probably more difficult than using predesigned pieces like those available from JTR, but I think that it is worth it. Email me with questions

 

good luck

[Owen]

I'm in SoCali and I just checked, the back of

my registration renewal notice.

"Smog inspections are no longer required for 1973 and older motor vehilces."

so no smog check and no referee station.

Owen

 

 

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for all the responses, guys. Nice to know that my train of thought is not totally loopy. I think that Dan (74_5.0_Z) and I have been drinking the same water. I figured somebody out there had the same idea. Now I just gotta locate a motor or donor 'Stang fit for the project. Anybody with any leads on junk, feel free to let me know. BTW the project Z is a 73 so I get in under all the smog stuff, as far as I can tell. I am stoked........this site rocks. Many cudos to Mike Kelly and associates for hanging in and doing a good job.

More to come

 

PEACE

Andy

[Ray]

One more atempt to sway you to the Chevy camp. 96 Vortec motors have a coventional water pump, 10to1 compression, roller cam, windage tray and high port Vortec heads. All you need is another cam and an intake!!! a reliable 400hp is easy. This beats the 225 in the Stang. Good used long blocks go for about 450$ and a t5 or t56 will bolt to it with the z28 flywheel.

 

Which ever way you go take a good look and learn as much as possible before you dive in. It will save you time as well as money!!!!! Good luck. Ray

 

[This message has been edited by Ray (edited April 12, 2000).]

[Michael]

Regarding the California stuff -

 

What Gene writes is very true. But, fortunately there's a break for pre-'74 cars. They are not required to submit to semi-annual smog inspections, and presumably, there is no "shake down" process at the smog referee station the first time that the vehicle is registered. The word on the street is that a "gross polluter" can still be pulled over on the street. But I have never actually heard of this happen. Besides, a properly tuned engine with reasonable cam should not be a gross polluter anyway, even with no smog equipment at all.

 

As for how to purchase engines.... I had (still have!) a huge project, so the attraction of buying something like a complete donor car was not that great. But, I did want to get a running engine, so that I could first worry about getting my car together, and then spend the $$$ on hopping up the engine. So I bought an engine out of a 1978 Chevy Suburban (454 big block). I found the transmission for sale on a race car classified site on the web. Later, I made some minor mods to the engine, but definitely no machining or "rebuilding". When I get my car running and all the details sorted out, I'll probably spend the money on a serious crate engine, either the "GM performance parts" ZZ502/502 or a "Merlin" 509 (again, this is big block jargon, but the same applies to small blocks or Fords). This is definitely a better way (than building the whole thing yourself) to get reliable high hp at still reasonable cost, but for a first iteration, where the whole project is still unproven and cost cutting is critical, a used engine is probably a better choice.

 

If you already have a source for a Ford 302, or better yet, a cheap late 80's/early 90's Mustang GT with 5-speed and fuel injection, that might actually be a pretty good combo. The main problem with Ford swaps, apart from the lack of precedent, is the awkward forward location of the sump (interferes with steering crossmember, evidently). But I was told that even that problem is moot with a Mustang swap, because of their revised sump location.

[Guest Anonymous]

Here is a thought...Ford Triton V10! I don't know how much this engine weighs but it would be a real monster!!!! This would probably be better for those interested in pure drag racing but who knows?? Does anybody have specs on this motor?

 

SpencZ

MonsterZ Cont. http://members.xoom.com/SpencZ/index.htm

[John Scott]

Or even the high tech 5.4 quad cam found in the new navigator. This would be my first choice for "dream" project v8 motors.

John

[Guest Anonymous]

John and SpencZ,

 

Why use such large, underpowered engines when lightweight and very powerful pushrod engines are available?

 

 

 

 

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Michael Sen-Roy

Houston Performance

281-893-6080

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[Drax240z]

Only one reason that I wouldn't use pushrods... They suck. Think about it. In one design (OHC) you have many less moving parts, and a much smaller reciprocating valve train mass, vs. the pushrod side, when you complicate things by adding in a "spacer" with raises the reciprocating mass, as well as number of parts. To me, it seems like the whole concept of pushrods came about something like this: "Crap, our cam is way down here and we want to make this overhead valves" "Lets add a rod that will move off the cam to drive those valves in the opposite direction from the pushrod movement" I still wonder why no one thought of just moving the cam instead? (I know, some people did)

 

As far as brute strength, torque, displacement etc are concerned, nothing beats an american pushrod engine. But to me, those are the type of characteristics you look for in a truck motor.

 

I don't mean to disrespect anyone going the V8 route at all, I too considered it for a long time, because of the relitve cheapness of the components, the ease in aquirement of those parts, the extreme amounts of documentation out there on the V8's, and their proven power potential. I just think the pushrod engine has gone the way VHS did when somehow it became more popular than the technologically superior Beta. From an engineering point of view it doesn't make a lot of sense, but sucess is for the masses to decide.

 

I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes here. The last post before mine in this thread irked me and made me wonder though.

 

 

 

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Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[pparaska]

Hmm. Disappointing direction we are headed down here. I thought we were all about open mindedness on this site.

 

I believe Michael (HP Tech) was just pointing out that the V10 Triton motor, etc. are heavy and not that powerful in standard buildd. And it's hard to go away from stock affordably that way.

 

"Pushrods suck" is definitely a closed minded idea. Take a look at what's been done with it, the LT1, etc. GM decided to go with pushrods on the LS1 because the idea of lower potential due to valvetrain weight were unfounded. Advances in camshaft design and roller cams have negated the need to spin the engine up, and the valvetrain can be lightened easily enough so as to not have it be a detriment.

 

Pushrods = truck engine? Come one, that's a bit radical, don't you think?

 

Check out the latest (Sept 2000) GM high Tech Performance mag. An LS1 Camaro with head work and a new cam went 11.27. I really don't think that's a low tech motor, but if you want to make generalizations like "pushrods suck", then you won't be able to see the beauty of that design.

 

Let's keep it openminded people! This IS NOT Zcar.com!

[Drax240z]

Yeah OK Pete, I went a bit overboard there. Fair enough. At one point not long ago, I was an avid V8/pushrod fan. I've read Hot Rod and similar mags for years, and I still enjoy reading those magazines as well.

 

I don't doubt the performance potential of the pushrod V8, its been proven over and over again that the big cubes produce big power.

 

I guess my reason for writing this is that I am constantly hearing how no small displacement motor can compare with a big displacement motor. (Granted, this sentiment is rarely if ever vocalized on this site) After reading what I thought was a similar statement here, I kinda snapped. There are people here that have proven this theory untrue, running fairly small displacement motors (lets say smaller than 4.0 L) and getting huge power and performance numbers out of those engines.

 

I was just off on a tangent, "pushrods suck" is a very close-minded statement I agree. Maybe I'm just getting defensive that I am running such a "baby" motor compared to everyone else on this site. I won't have the HP #'s that you guys have... Period. Nor will I have torque in the same league.

 

If I had the money, I think I'd like to run a Nissan 4.5L V8 with twin turbos. But I've always had a fear of being unorigional.

 

Sorry to whomever toes got stepped on there, I'm off my soapbox.

 

 

 

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Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[Guest Anonymous]

Drax, your opinions of engines aside, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. No hard feelings...

 

 

 

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Michael Sen-Roy

Houston Performance

281-893-6080

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[BLKMGK]

Okay - I'll bite

 

First off I'm a BIG Ford fan. I've owned two Mustangs now and this last one since it was new in '88. I've had blowers, twin turbos, lot's of heads, and now a blown 351W in it.

 

I've also been an admirer of Zs from afar. They look cool and they take a V8 pretty easily. Best of all no emissions crap to worry about and they're light!

 

So, I have a friend who does a V8 Z and that little twitch got unbearable - I'm now building a V8 Z At the same time I've got access to all the Ford hi-po stuff I could want since a friend owns a shop specializing in Mustangs. I also had another friend who used to restore Zs and who hadmounts to put a 302 using stock Mustang headers into the Z. Stock oil pan too BTW and the stick goes through the tunnel in the right spot too :-)Hrm!

 

After some thought I chose the Chevy motor. Shocked? I chose it for several reasons. First and foremost - it's a proven swap. It's been done time and again and there's a great book on how to do it out there. Second, I wanted a car that could be cruised easily on the highway and which had half a chance of getting decent MPG. I've broken a T5 in my Mustang and now have a Tremec - notchiest thing I've ever driven! Not only that but 5th isn't enough overdrive when you put in fairly "wild" gears (IMO). Some Zs have 3.90 and better gears so that was a concern. Along these lines there exists a NICE Chevy trans - the T56 - that has 6 gears. .5 overdrive? Sign me up! Yeah, there's a Ford version too but it's not "stock" in anything and costs a grand more+ even at the prices I get. No thanks.

 

A couple of things about going Ford. You can get good HP from the 302. I went 351W in the Mustang because it was MUCH easier to get that power, a stronger block, and because with a blower I'll be getting close to 600hp Doing that with a stock block 302 would be tough. Parts ain't cheap even when you get them at cost or used. The weight difference between a Chevy and a Ford wasn't an issue for me. You might be able to do a 351W into a Z but it's about an inch wider so it could be pretty tight. I'm spending $4500 on a built 383 stroker SBC, I could easily have spent that much or more on a Ford motor. Not counting the $2K+ heads on the Mustang I probably have about $3000 in that sucker so maybe it's not too bad.

 

How much power do you desire as your end goal? How much work will you be willing to put into it? Can you fabricate? The mounts aren't too bad but I've not been able to get hold of that guy to get the plans from him for them. Will you be happy with a T5? How will you do the clutch release? Hydraulic throwout maybe? It may buzz a little high on the highway with that overdrive. Obviously others here have done this swap, it's a cool one, but be sure you want to take the road less travelled.

 

Figure it out as far as you can before taking the car apart, trust me on this (sigh). I had slaved for awhile to get my Mustang ready when I started the Z, I just had no energy to "engineer" another car. The Mustang still isn't on the road, after a year of delays I was pretty sick of working on it (grr). I'm taking the easy path, which path you take is up to you but the Ford road - in this case - IS a bit harder. I'll try to get hold of the friend who mounted a 302 in his Z to see if I can get his mount measurements, no promises tho'.

 

As for the pushrod arguments. My Mustang friend is now working on SOHC and DOHC Mustangs. His current ride is a blown DOHC Cobra - close to 500hp. Yeah, it flies! Consider the cost of that HP compared to a blown 351W or 302. He could hop it up further but then reliability might suffer. 283 cubes I think it is. Why do some of us push cubes? It's about effeciency folks. If I get a small motor to be super effecient I'll make lot's of power ala F1 racing. It'll like hi-revs (Cobras do!!) run like stink and be put together like a Swiss watch. Bucks!

 

Now, build a bigger cube motor, rev it slower (less wear BTW), and have less effeciency. Yup, it's not quite as "exciting" but bubba - you didn't pay alot for that muffler! Parts for those small engines are in the stratosphere too! Those bigger motors aren't as exciting but they get the job done and they make the power.

 

At the end of the track the loser doesn't usually jump out of his car and say "yeah but my motor is more effecient". It doesn't work that way. The Z is light enough to take the weight - done right a SBC weighs less than a Z 6 folks. Oh yeah - my 383's balancer will be just over 6inches so you could fool a referee if you had to

 

Geez, how's that for about 25 cents worth? I'm beat!

 

[This message has been edited by BLKMGK (edited July 17, 2000).]