E85 convert

[Driftinrican]

Ok my question is simple... I know E85 has an octain rating of like 106 vs the 92-93 octain we see at the pump. What I want to know is what do I need and how to convert my old l28 to run on E85. if there is a three out there can some one send me the link so that I can resurch it more and possibly run my own high performance Eco friendly l28 with some not so friendly power.

[TimZ]

Ok my question is simple... I know E85 has an octain rating of like 106 vs the 92-93 octain we see at the pump. What I want to know is what do I need and how to convert my old l28 to run on E85. if there is a three out there can some one send me the link so that I can resurch it more and possibly run my own high performance Eco friendly l28 with some not so friendly power.

 

Yes, there are a few of us on this forum that have done the conversion here are a couple of links that should help:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/97907-e85-conversion/page__p__919283__hl__e85__fromsearch__1#entry919283

 

I ended up needing more fuel delivery capability from the tank so here are some updates that I did to it:

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/103460-another-take-on-modifying-the-stock-tank/page__p__967910__hl__e85__fromsearch__1#entry967910

 

If you search on E85 you should find some additional posts. Good luck!

[Gollum]

#1. Stop comparing E85 with octane rating numbers, it's nearly irrelevant when comparing gasoline to non-petroleum based fuels like ethanol.

 

As tim posted, others have done it. The conversion isn't that much different. If you want to do it "right" you'll need programmable EFI. Bigger alcohol rated pump is a good idea, alcohol rated rubber fuel hose, and alcohol rated injectors, probably at least 30-40% over what you'd need for the same power with gasoline.

[ttodhunter]

I stumbled across this a little while back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

 

E85 only has 72% of the power potential of regular gasoline. My understanding is that you will reduce detonation potential significantly, but will make a lot less power. For a rough example, you would probably make more power running a 9:1 CR on pump gas compared to a 11:1 setup running e85. And, food for thought, if you build an engine to run e85 and end up somewhere where e85 isn't available...

 

I'm no specialist, correct me if I'm wrong anyone.

[letitsnow]

Generally e85 makes more power, the cooling effects and the oxygen it brings along help. It does have less energy per volume, which is why you get worse gas mileage and need bigger injectors for the same power. If it's a turbo car we're talking about, it'll make a lot more power because of the effective octane and cylinder/charge cooling.

 

A friend of mine with a turbo RSX-S made just about the same power on e85 as he did on 93, but with 9psi instead of 13psi.

[icewtr]

About 3 of my friends changed over to e85 all turbo cars. Great power and cheap price but now the have found they use twice as much fuel an are actually paying more. My suburban ca use it or regular fuel. Have only seen 3 stations here in so cal so far with it and in my suburban i get very poor mileage with it and basicly till i run the tank aslow as possible and put normal gas back in .

[TimZ]

E85 only has 72% of the power potential of regular gasoline. My understanding is that you will reduce detonation potential significantly, but will make a lot less power. For a rough example, you would probably make more power running a 9:1 CR on pump gas compared to a 11:1 setup running e85.

 

This is a common misconception. E85 has 72% of the energy of gas per unit volume. This is why you generally get lower fuel mileage. However the stoichometric mixture for E85 is more like 9.7:1 vs ~14.7 for gas. This means for a correct mixture on E85 you burn ~50% more fuel. If you do the math, this suggests that you should see ~8% more power on E85. Moreover, the max power rich mix for E85 is around 7:1 vs 12 for gas, which suggests even more power potential.

 

Also, E85 is stable at much leaner mixtures (compared to stoich) than gas, and it tends to yield better mid-range torque, so you can mitigate some of the mileage issues on cruise. Properly tuned, E85 usually gets 20-25% lower mileage than gas.

[roger280zx]

Not so sure about the "Eco-friendly" part, and this is certainly not the place to discuss that so I digress.

[Gollum]

Tim covered my thoughts well but I'd like to reinforce.

 

E85 has a MUCH wider range of "happy" from stoich, or lambda 1.0 compared to gasoline. You can run MUCH MUCH richer without fouling plugs, and quite a bit leaner without having low load ping.

 

The biggest MPG issue is keeping your foot out of it, and tuning the low load areas of your tune. People don't realize just how much timing they can still run under low load, and how lean they can actually get it. If you're running lambda 1.0 running down the freeway you're just wasting fuel imo. And of course power takes fuel, and with E85 it's going to be a lot of it, but there's no reason you need to get significantly worse MPG on a regular basis unless you only drive at the track. I've personally seen examples of people keeping MPG within 15% on tank averages, and in most places E85 is less than 75% the cost of low grade gasoline, which makes E85 possible the most economical HP improvement you can make, especially when you consider it can make more power EVERYWHERE, unlike many other aspects of engine tuning.

 

And energy content per volume is only an ASPECT of power that can be made with a fuel, like throttle body size is only an ASPECT of power your engine can make. Even "octane" is just an ASPECT with almost no indication to how much power resides in the fuel.

[Driftinrican]

Well I like the fact that e85 is a renewable source of fule vs gasoline which is not. But what I eventually want to do is not just run e85 but a mixture of it like 75 percent e85 and 25 percent gasoline. This way I can get slightly better gas millage than running a full tank of e 85 and less detonation than a full tank out gasoline. So as got going to a place that has no e85 I still want to be able to use gasoline. So ideally I want a flex fule z. And thanks for all the info and I have learned how to use this sure a little bit better now so hopefully I don't ask many more nube questions.

[Gollum]

Well I like the fact that e85 is a renewable source of fule vs gasoline which is not. But what I eventually want to do is not just run e85 but a mixture of it like 75 percent e85 and 25 percent gasoline. This way I can get slightly better gas millage than running a full tank of e 85 and less detonation than a full tank out gasoline. So as got going to a place that has no e85 I still want to be able to use gasoline. So ideally I want a flex fule z. And thanks for all the info and I have learned how to use this sure a little bit better now so hopefully I don't ask many more nube questions.

 

The MUCH better option if that's your goals is to run a twin injection setup, with one set of injectors running gasoline, and one running E85. It might seem like it's much more complicated, but it's much better in the long run. You'll never have to worry about finding E85 on road trips and you'll get your 30+mpg on the freeway, and you'll always have the benefit of E85 power when you put your foot into it.

 

Member here 510six has a L28ET in his 510 pushing a good 400+hp off the bottle with some healthy nitrous on tap. He runs, if I recall correctly, a 3 gallon tank in the trunk with E85 and it lasts his a LONG time. When you're only running it under boost like a twin injection setup then you end up using a lot less than you might imagine.

 

Megasquirt can handle twin injection setups, but if you want something a bit more plug and play companies like AEM offer models designed for twin injection use.

[Mack]

I think if one PROPERLY built a car for E85, you would see both higher HP AND higher MPG. I have been researching it for a while on various forums and I have found people running upwards of 12.5:1 WITH 14psi of boost. If you wanted a straight N/A set up, you could run as high as 14:1 compression and still run a boat load of timing. It is a pretty sweet fuel, but to take advantage of ALL of its benefits, you need a lot of compression.

[Tony D]

CNG...

[Lucky Strike]

In reading wolf blog posts etc i hear that cng is big in aus but not a peep in the states..... is cng a worthwhile adventure?

[jc052685]

Have converted several Z32 TT's over to E85. We have 18 or so stations that carry it here so its really no problem.

[Tony D]

CNG is huge in the USA, you just don't see it.

 

In fact, governmental regulations by the CNG lobby have all but eliminated private conversions now, labelling them as 'unsafe'. Now you have to go to a 'certified CNG Conversion Facility' to do it.

 

But buying an old Crown Vic CNG and salvaging parts....

 

This is not LPG, that's something different. The propane conversions don't have a subsidized fuel cost break like CNG does. And you can't buy your own fuel pump and have it installed at the house for 0.40 cents a gallon fuel. (Though if you had a big propane pig in the back yard, I don't see why you couldn't pick up an old pump and fill your own...if you have the skills!)

[Gollum]

I think if one PROPERLY built a car for E85, you would see both higher HP AND higher MPG. I have been researching it for a while on various forums and I have found people running upwards of 12.5:1 WITH 14psi of boost. If you wanted a straight N/A set up, you could run as high as 14:1 compression and still run a boat load of timing. It is a pretty sweet fuel, but to take advantage of ALL of its benefits, you need a lot of compression.

 

I've been saying things like that for a while now, and it's amazing how few really believe me.

 

In playing with E85 tuning, it's just plain retarded how you can't have real detonation issues with any factory turbocharged vehicle. This is the perfect fuel for people wanting to boost NA motors like the F20C. I've seen 600hp 2 liter motors that at peak HP levels you can adjust timing as much as 3 degrees with zero power difference, and still end up with a huge AFR window. Tuning it with a gasoline mindset like most shops will leave quite a bit of MPG on the table...

 

I've been dreaming of building a turbo MN47 L28 that's purpose built for E85. Goals would be 400whp, 12+:1 compression, 30+mpg, and possible non-intercooled....

 

And tony, CNG might be awesome, but filling is just plain not-convenient. Of course if you're racing that's not really an issue. But for those who want to DD their project and still take it on long trips, it can very easily become cumbersome from what I've looked into.

[Mack]

A perfect example of this is Dave Henry. He is a supra (4th gen) guy from Fargo, ND. HE used to run the worlds fastest NA-T conversion, NOW, he is running a set-up with about 10.75:1 and a TON of boost on E98. He is SOLIDLY into the 8's! (like low low low 8s) He is well on his way to 7s.

[Tony D]

Depends on where you live, really. And what you consider a 'long trip'.... I daily drove for several years Full Size Ford vehicles with CNG and their mileage limit without reserve tanks was around 250 miles. Same for the new small stuff. All depends on the ability to carry the 3600psi tanks. The Civic CNG has nice small tanks that are tasty for a Z Conversion....

 

Curiously, 240 miles is about my refill in the Z now! If you plan, it is possible to go cross-country on CNG, you just need to know where the stations are.... They can be right under your nose and you never know about them. In many cases, school bus fleets are converted, and it's informal CNG Protocol to 'assist when needed'---meaning I can't count how many times I watched someone who was low on fuel go in and get a FREE fillup at the local School Bus Yard from their slow-fill fueling spot. When's the last time someone gave you a free FILL UP (not a splashed gallon, or a ride to buy a can and get a couple gallons when you ran out---a FREE FULL TANK!???)

 

The Real advantage is for people driving under, say, 125 miles a day one-way in a commute (er, like me....) With a Phill Station at home, and 40 cents per gallon fuel, and the ability to piggyback off the entire CNG Infrastructure in most any major city it becomes really convenient! LA, Denver, Phoenix, Portland, San Diego Bay... I would service the CNG pumps in HANFORD from my place in Perris. That's a longer trip than most make. And I've been to ElMirage and back (100 miles+ one way plus driving around) on CNG. Yeah, it's more expensive commercially, but there's just no way I'm getting 40 cent per gallon E85 and my house.

 

The nearest E85 is 3 miles from my house (100 Octane Racing Fuel there as well...)

The nearest CNG fueling is 3.2 miles from my house, and it's running cheaper than E85 right now, and probably will stay that way.

 

I just don't have the time now to do anything other than theorize about making my illegally converted CNG-Turbo-Z!

[Gollum]

While we're on the topic I want to bring something up. I was going to just PM mack about it, knowing that it goes beyond what people are trying to learn, but thought it might actually benefit the HBZ community as a whole, so here we go.

 

The E85 you'll find at the pump is of course approximated, and will vary with season by design. They also use gasoline to "denature" it, meaning make it poison so people don't drink it so it's no longer transported and sold as a "beverage alcohol" or whatever term you want to use. Basically, drinking spirits have a million laws attached, and since E85 for vehicles makes a bit of since for the right buyer, they needed a way to get around all that since it's just meant for fuel, well mix it with gasoline and voila, problem solved. This also lead to improved transportation costs, as ethanol is water-soluble. Gasoline is NOT water soluble so it's EASY to get the water out, so storage standards aren't necessarily kept "strictly fallowed", if you catch my drift. Oh, there's laws about the fumes and such, but you'd be amazed the stories I've heard from people in that field. So mix the E85 with gasoline, problem solved. You now can get away with much "looser" tanks without destroying product.

 

 

But.... is that what's best for the car running ethanol? I personally say no. I personally feel the best option is running as high of ethanol content as you can get for the money, and letting the rest be what it will be at distillation, water weight/volume. If anything, ADD water to get to a consistent proof reading. The ethanol in the water will keep the water from rusting your tank and other fittings as long as they survive alcohol just fine, as opposed to gasoline where water in the system is almost guaranteed to ruin something by process of time. The added water will actually yield BETTER burning properties compared to gasoline E85. Though you won't be able to make as much POWER PER GALLON, your Rich Best Torque, and Lean Best Torque will be much "richer" since it's the alcohol content that matters for your mixture. So yes, it's not as "powerful" as gasoline E85. but it makes more sense in many ways. It will only add to the cooling properties of E85, instead of taking away like gasoline, and it will also help keep the engine squeaky clean. Of course, to me a huge benefit is that you can actually make MORE power since you no longer have the gasoline "getting in the way" and are basically running pure alcohol with a volume increasing cleaning agent. And another benefit as that it's cheaper and easier to MAKE, if you decide to get a fuel distillers license.

 

Just like biodiesel, the home brewers crowd is growing, and there might be one in your area. They're most likely more than happy to skip adding gasoline for you and might already be doing that. You might also be amazed to find how much cheaper the home brewers are making their ethanol versus how much it goes for at the pump. It's also not quite as chemically advanced in my opinion as making biodiesel, or at least making it well. If I decide to go E85 I might consider making my own fuel, since I can easily draw up a side business plan that can easily make 100+ gallons a month, which is more than I should need for myself. And if I do it legitimately with a license and business name, as a sole proprietor if the business is at a loss then I'm at a tax advantage aren't I? Nothing illegal about that, just lots of hoops to jump through. I'm already a self employeed contractor so it wouldn't change how I file much anyhoo. Is it a lot of time? Sure, what isn't. But in reality if you set it up right you'll spend more time getting your fuel source and getting it for a good deal than you will making it, since much of the process can be "set and forget cooking" so to speak. Once you have the process down with the right equipment, your main job is moving mash from process to process and then babysitting it while it goes. No reason it couldn't be done in your spare time after getting home from work, or doing batches on the weekends.

 

The biggest downside that I haven't touched on, because it honestly is one that hurts quite bad, is that if you're using water/alcohol, then you obviously want to avoid anything resembling gasoline from entering your tank... This means you're now 100% dependent on your source, and if you get stuck somewhere you're left to buying $30+ a gallon fuel at the grocery/liquor store. If you have a great source, even if it's yourself, then it's a great option. There's also the chance that maybe the big companies making E85 could re-tool to use water-alcohol, but that's like wishing our government is going to turn our deficit into a surplus in the next 12 months. Just ain't gonna happen. Possible? Sure. Just too many sharks in that ocean to go surfing.

 

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to mention. A huge reason the E85 content changes is because they use a closer to E70 blend as a "winter fuel" since ethanol is so much harder to get your engine started on. Most subaru STI's converted to E85, even on nice summer blend fuels can take a good 3+ seconds turning over to start, and that's considered "normal". A water-alcohol mix will be even worse, needing EVEN MORE heat to get burning. The logical solution to this is quite obvious to most of you here I'd imagine... Compression. Add enough compression to make it a E85 ONLY engine, instead of a "flex-fuel" design and this problem practically goes away. I'd definitely never run E85 exclusively on a stock dish piston + P90 7.4:1 setup. The compression is just too low imo and you'll be left with an engine that starts up like it's running out of fuel. If someone was wanting to run E85 on a stock L28ET for performance benefits I'd suggest considering a twin injection setup a REQUIREMENT. This will allow 100% gasoline at cranking and reward you with easy starts. You could also just run a start up injector at the TB on any E85 vehicle to avoid this problem as well, though you'll need it running through warm up too, and adding an extra tank + pump is just needlessly complicated for a start up fuel imo.

 

 

Compression is the real solution. Run 11:1+ and don't look back. Run as much as you're willing to gamble. I've seen turbo V8's running 13:1+....

Edited May 31, 2012 by Gollum