Fuel Injection Upgrade from Carbs

[Tony D]

PM Done...

 

I keep the inbox message to short words so you can understand.

[michaelp]

And I will remind you my BONE STOCK EFI L28 with no cam, with no porting, BONE STOCK makes 147 to the rear wheels.

 

So for about $4000 in head work, cam, carbs and bottom end work you picked up 60hp.

 

Read that again.

 

Read that again.

 

Read that again.

 

That signifies to me that the BONE STOCK EFI does pretty darned good on a BONE STOCK ENGINE. What if I did porting and a cam, where would that EFI go? 190? I know someone with 187 but it's a different dyno and done 20 years ago. Now guys just slap a MS on it and don't look back.

 

In every way, power, emissions, driveability, the Stock EFI was an improvement over the former induction system.

 

If you had problems with it, and didn't take the time to learn the little you need to learn to fix it---that is your problem.

 

 

Don't blame the equipment for the poor performance of the guy behind the wheel!

 

Do you have a dyno sheet? I find it very hard to believe a bone stock L28 with its poo restrictive head and crappy intake and exhaust manifold design with a tiny exhaust makes 147whp, when a bone stock VG30E makes ~140whp....with better heads, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, bigger exhaust and PROPER EFI....my car is definitely faster than it was with the poop stock EFI. Not only that, but it can't handle more power for ****...you're not going to get away with a cam and head work in any way. The stock 180cc injectors would be hard pressed to make much more than stock power.

 

I threw it out because its garbage. If I go back to EFI, it'll be with an proper setup that can actually compensate for more airflow. Z31 EFI or stand alone.

 

BTW...just because your weber setup was tuned poorly and made crap power doesn't mean carbs suck. The stock EFI intake manifold flows like a coffee stirrer/straw compared to even SUs, let alone triple webers.

Edited May 27, 2012 by michaelp

[78zstyle]

To answer the op: i think if your stock efi is in good working condition, stick with it. Much more hassle free than carbs. However if you want to go carbs, consider some z therapy su carbs or a arizona z car four barrel carb set up.

[michaelp]

To answer the op: i think if your stock efi is in good working condition, stick with it. Much more hassle free than carbs. However if you want to go carbs, consider some z therapy su carbs or a arizona z car four barrel carb set up.

 

This is true...really depends on what you want to do with the car. If you're looking for "cheap" NA power gains, as in...supporting other modifications such as head work, cams etc....go with carbs.

 

If you're just looking for a reliable stock cruiser, stick with the stock EFI....

 

If you're afraid to tune carbs occasionally, spend the extra cash and go with a stand alone EFI setup, just get a better intake manifold than the stocker...

[Tony D]

Do you have a dyno sheet? I find it very hard to believe a bone stock L28 with its poo restrictive head and crappy intake and exhaust manifold design with a tiny exhaust makes 147whp, when a bone stock VG30E makes ~140whp....with better heads, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, bigger exhaust and PROPER EFI....my car is definitely faster than it was with the poop stock EFI. Not only that, but it can't handle more power for ****...you're not going to get away with a cam and head work in any way. The stock 180cc injectors would be hard pressed to make much more than stock power.

 

I threw it out because its garbage. If I go back to EFI, it'll be with an proper setup that can actually compensate for more airflow. Z31 EFI or stand alone.

 

BTW...just because your weber setup was tuned poorly and made crap power doesn't mean carbs suck. The stock EFI intake manifold flows like a coffee stirrer/straw compared to even SUs, let alone triple webers.

 

You don't own a silver 76 280Z coupe and live in Texas do you (or maybe that was 78's daddy...)?

 

That guy couldn't believe a rat-crap 2/2 was turning consistent 15.50's (best ever a 15.30) down the San Antonio 1/4 Mile all night long, 26 passes at the ZCon. Scales at that event said the car was either 2695, or 2965# I forget which. Trap speed was just below 90mph (89.9, 88 or so, I don't recall anything below 88 mph that evening and don't know where the time slips are any longer...)

 

Do the math. You have been reading too many domestic rags. The stock EFI Exhaust Manifold is not resrictive, it's not a 454 or SBC. Best thing on the car was the 2.5" crush-bent exhaust (with TWO mufflers, because I want it QUIET)... and that doesn't account for the numerous crushed areas from bottoming on rough roads...

 

There's a nice photo of the car in J's Tipo doing a burnout in the Bleach Box.

 

THE POINT BEING: The car FELT fast as hell with the webers, header, et al... But it wasn't. And it was WAY down on power.

The properly running EFI put back onto the car, and all the crap put back to stock (including the air cleaner, with a K&N Stock Replacement element) FELT a hell of a lot slower. But it wasn't. It was almost DOUBLE the power, but had no sensory feedback screaming at you "your going fast your going fast!"

 

Unless your car is CURRENTLY dynoing higher than 147 to the rear wheels, or can turn a 15.50 in the 1/4 mile when weighted comparably as mine was---I got news: your swap cost you power!

 

It really is that simple!

 

As for the stock EFI not handling cam or head work...you are grossly oversimplifying the situation. If you choose to do this, and run with the pack of average intelligence morass (called 'the pack') then that's acceptable. When you wanna run up front, give me a call and we can teach you about the real tricks of the trade. I've seen 187 on stock EFI at MSA. Go read the power and performance readings for comparable era BMW 6's, and go look what kind of EFI system they used. (Hint Hint!) You're simply too young to know how it was done in the day. There are easier ways to do it, but to disparage the system from a standpoint of ignorance like you're doing is an injustice both to the Nissan Engineers who made the system work, and to the people at Bosch who came up with the concept in the first place. "Proper" EFI? Sounds a lot like you want the "Best" system in your car...well... that's all a matter of opinion and skill level. And money. If you don't have skills, money usually makes things very easy, like buying a "modern" standalone---based on Bosch Technology from the early 60's!

Edited May 27, 2012 by Tony D

[michaelp]

You don't own a silver 76 280Z coupe and live in Texas do you (or maybe that was 78's daddy...)?

 

That guy couldn't believe a rat-crap 2/2 was turning consistent 15.50's (best ever a 15.30) down the San Antonio 1/4 Mile all night long, 26 passes at the ZCon. Scales at that event said the car was either 2695, or 2965# I forget which. Trap speed was just below 90mph (89.9, 88 or so, I don't recall anything below 88 mph that evening and don't know where the time slips are any longer...)

 

Do the math. You have been reading too many domestic rags. The stock EFI Exhaust Manifold is not resrictive, it's not a 454 or SBC. Best thing on the car was the 2.5" crush-bent exhaust (with TWO mufflers, because I want it QUIET)... and that doesn't account for the numerous crushed areas from bottoming on rough roads...

 

There's a nice photo of the car in J's Tipo doing a burnout in the Bleach Box.

 

THE POINT BEING: The car FELT fast as hell with the webers, header, et al... But it wasn't. And it was WAY down on power.

The properly running EFI put back onto the car, and all the crap put back to stock (including the air cleaner, with a K&N Stock Replacement element) FELT a hell of a lot slower. But it wasn't. It was almost DOUBLE the power, but had no sensory feedback screaming at you "your going fast your going fast!"

 

Unless your car is CURRENTLY dynoing higher than 147 to the rear wheels, or can turn a 15.50 in the 1/4 mile when weighted comparably as mine was---I got news: your swap cost you power!

 

It really is that simple!

 

I raced a friends Z31 that ran mid 14s in the 1/4 and we were neck and neck...so yeah. Guess what guy, I deal with tuning EFI cars all the time....doesnt change the fact that the stock EFI sucks for making power...and until you produce a dyno sheet, you're full of it.

[michaelp]

 

As for the stock EFI not handling cam or head work...you are grossly oversimplifying the situation. If you choose to do this, and run with the pack of average intelligence morass (called 'the pack') then that's acceptable. When you wanna run up front, give me a call and we can teach you about the real tricks of the trade. I've seen 187 on stock EFI at MSA. Go read the power and performance readings for comparable era BMW 6's, and go look what kind of EFI system they used. (Hint Hint!) You're simply too young to know how it was done in the day. There are easier ways to do it, but to disparage the system from a standpoint of ignorance like you're doing is an injustice both to the Nissan Engineers who made the system work, and to the people at Bosch who came up with the concept in the first place. "Proper" EFI? Sounds a lot like you want the "Best" system in your car...well... that's all a matter of opinion and skill level. And money. If you don't have skills, money usually makes things very easy, like buying a "modern" standalone---based on Bosch Technology from the early 60's!

 

I can tell already that you've never even used standalone EMS if you think just having money solves it. It takes more skills to properly tune a car using stand alone (or any modern EMS for that matter) than it does to use your ghetto old-school tricks of taking apart the primitive AFM and screwing with potentiometers.

 

And yes, 187whp is about the most 180cc injectors can manage on a 6 cylinder, unless you bump fuel pressure...but since you have no PROPER means of tuning your antique EFI, good look with making it run properly.

 

Call me when you want to be taught the tricks of the trade in the MODERN EFI world....you know, where you actually tune fuel and timing maps at specific RPM and load ranges to make it run properly at every RPM, with the best possible emissions and fuel economy.

Edited May 27, 2012 by michaelp

[Tony D]

Got more than enough witnesses on this board as to the veracity of my times at San Antonio. Asked and answered previously.

 

Don't forget now, I said comparably weighted -- if the engine was in a car 500# lighter, yeah I can see 14's. But in my rat-crap 2/2 weighing one of those two weights above (I forget which) it turned 15.50 and a best time of 15.30.

 

So what really did you gain? If it's in the 78 then I applaud you, you took your car from 17 to 14's. But your tag line shows a bit more than a carb only swap!

[michaelp]

Got more than enough witnesses on this board as to the veracity of my times at San Antonio. Asked and answered previously.

 

Don't forget now, I said comparably weighted -- if the engine was in a car 500# lighter, yeah I can see 14's. But in my rat-crap 2/2 weighing one of those two weights above (I forget which) it turned 15.50 and a best time of 15.30.

 

So what really did you gain? If it's in the 78 then I applaud you, you took your car from 17 to 14's. But your tag line shows a bit more than a carb only swap!

 

It had header, exhaust and a cone filter before with the crappy EFI. Stock S30 EFI = crap for power. end of discussion. Theres a reason the race cars didn't use it.

[Tony D]

Ignorance is bliss. Why are you so angry that I make 147 with the stock setup? The guy in Texas swore at me. Do the math on the 1/4 times sonny. My old dyno sheet at 147 doesn't explain the times, 147 is way too low for that kind of weight.

 

 

BTW:

The race cars used first generation Bosch-Licensed Technology like you find in a 68 Type3 VW made by JECS.... It was MAP based with four control knobs on an analog computer box mounted where the radio would be in a stock car...

 

If you REALLY want to know why in the SCCA they used the Mikuni 44PHH, it's what was homogolated. That was what the car was SUPPOSED to come to the USA with, having the SU's as the 'entry level model'... For REAL racing, STREET carbs like the PHH's and SU's were never seriously considered. Lucas Slide-Valve Mechanical FI, as well as the new JECS EFI (or as Nissan called it at the time "EGI") was the choice for serious competition worldwide (where rule classes let you run it...)

 

But because EFI was a 'black art' most sanctioning bodies considered it AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE against teams relegated to merely using carburettors, so in most places it was not allowed. Where it was allowed (and if you read the FIA Homogolation Papers for 1975 Appendix J you will see STOCK EFI being homogolated!) it was used to great effect against teams without it.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Tony D

[michaelp]

Ignorance is bliss. Why are you so angry that I make 147 with the stock setup? The guy in Texas swore at me. Do the math on the 1/4 times sonny. My old dyno sheet at 147 doesn't explain the times, 147 is way too low for that kind of weight.

 

 

BTW:

The race cars used first generation Bosch-Licensed Technology like you find in a 68 Type3 VW made by JECS.... It was MAP based with four control knobs on an analog computer box mounted where the radio would be in a stock car...

 

Because NA Z31s only do ~140whp, and they have better heads, cams, intake, exhaust and EFI....and a higher compression ratio.

Edited May 27, 2012 by michaelp

[NewZed]

It takes more skills to properly tune a car using stand alone (or any modern EMS for that matter) than it does to use your ghetto old-school tricks of taking apart the primitive AFM and screwing with potentiometers.

 

Don't really want to get in to the battle but this statement makes no sense. Why it would take more skill to use a computer and do your tuning looking at AFRs and adjusting fuel and timing compared to actually understanding what the keys you're punching on the computer are actually doing? This just seems like the typical "I don't understand it therefore it must be crap" attitude. Pretty weak.

[michaelp]

Don't really want to get in to the battle but this statement makes no sense. Why it would take more skill to use a computer and do your tuning looking at AFRs and adjusting fuel and timing compared to actually understanding what the keys you're punching on the computer are actually doing? This just seems like the typical "I don't understand it therefore it must be crap" attitude. Pretty weak.

 

Theres no keys being punched when "tuning" the 280Z EFI. Its a crappy analog computer.

[Tony D]

Yes, New Zed, the ignorance being assumed here on one side of the 'argument' is sad. Their lack of historical context regarding EFI and the Z in competition is especially telling as to the extent of the ignorance.

 

As for 'hacking mods'---yeah, believe what you want. You aren't reading anything I'm stating. You have your ignorant opinion, and are unopen to any sort of education on the issue. What a sad state of affairs. But it's what I expect from the Z31 Crowd. By and far they are an odd lot, with big chips on their shoulder and lots to prove to nobody in particular.

 

Have a good life. It was a stock for stock change being discussed. I offered examples of PROPERLY TUNED EXAMPLES in both stock and non-stock form. They don't want to listen. That's good. We need someone to fill the field on a track day. At least they won't be an issue till it's time to lap the backmarkers!

[michaelp]

Yes, New Zed, the ignorance being assumed here on one side of the 'argument' is sad. Their lack of historical context regarding EFI and the Z in competition is especially telling as to the extent of the ignorance.

 

As for 'hacking mods'---yeah, believe what you want. You aren't reading anything I'm stating. You have your ignorant opinion, and are unopen to any sort of education on the issue. What a sad state of affairs. But it's what I expect from the Z31 Crowd. By and far they are an odd lot, with big chips on their shoulder and lots to prove to nobody in particular.

 

Have a good life. It was a stock for stock change being discussed. I offered examples of PROPERLY TUNED EXAMPLES in both stock and non-stock form. They don't want to listen. That's good. We need someone to fill the field on a track day. At least they won't be an issue till it's time to lap the backmarkers!

 

I'm not the ignorant one who is full of his opinion and sticking by it...I've even had about a dozen people from this forum tell me in the last half hour how you're an opinionated old stubborn guy who can't grasp modern stuff. Have fun in the stone age of EFI. Its good at two things, not needing to tweak it occasionally, and emissions.

 

Get out your timer, its reaaal friggen slow with the SUs...lost soooo much power.

 

Edited May 27, 2012 by michaelp

[RB26powered74zcar]

 

 

Get out your timer, its reaaal friggen slow with the SUs...lost soooo much power.

 

 

What rear gear and trans speedo cog is being used in that video?

 

 

 

[Tony D]

Looks like a stock pull with a 3.36, though I don't know why it backs off at only 90...

 

I know nothing about modern EFI, Tis True. Those Hondata Boys with their $5000 MoTec system bumped the scale a bit.

Then again they have F1 induction tract and major sponsorship as well.

 

We just scabbed it together in the garage. It's an old system... Not big like a PROPER Motec. I mean, MoTec is the best there is out there, lets not kid ourselves with some compromised Z31 system (the one you know, that won't control the coils over 6500 rpms for proper dwell?)

 

Typical East Coast - West Coast Youngster tripe... When you do something worth recording, let us all know. Maybe do it at an FIA Sanctioned event where record it on something other than a fuzzy video.

 

It's not impressing me, and the net is too slow here to post the dyno run I took last Saturday. Had to calibrate the one we made to coincide against the traceable Dynapak we'd run on the day before.

 

But it's old white guys doing this. We must be using gauges and taking flash readings like an old Stuska. We would never be sophisticated enough to datalog load cels and make our own dyno...

 

See ya when you're 30!

Edited May 27, 2012 by Tony D

[Tony D]

But I see your point about getting out a timer!

If I use the one on the video, it's over 15seconds , and that doesn't coincide with your claptrap!

 

Man this sound reminiscent of Bubbles at ZCar.com and thinking a 14 or 15 second car is somehow a big achievement.

 

Call me when you make 12's with the SU's... Been there, drove that!

 

Never said it was slow. But I can say it isn't particularly quick! Not by a longshot!

Edited May 27, 2012 by Tony D

[michaelp]

But I see your point about getting out a timer!

If I use the one on the video, it's over 15seconds , and that doesn't coincide with your claptrap!

 

Man this sound reminiscent of Bubbles at ZCar.com and thinking a 14 or 15 second car is somehow a big achievement.

 

Call me when you make 12's with the SU's... Been there, drove that!

 

Never said it was slow. But I can say it isn't particularly quick! Not by a longshot!

 

Its stock other than headers, exhaust and SUs....and its quicker than it was with the stock EFI. Thats all the point ever was. Keep in mind that in that video its rolling out, not launching....its a bit quicker with a launch.

 

But whatever, if you did know what you were talking about with modern EFI you wouldnt have said it is "based off bosch technology from the 60s"....digital EFI has nothing in common with analog EFI except for the fact that it has fuel injectors.

 

Oh, and right...FYI...people have revved over 7,000rpm with the Z31 ECU. The reason they cut out at 6500rpm is..well, thats where the REV LIMITER is, smart one....what was it that I managed once....right, 7600rpm.

 

And I never said it was fast, I said it wasnt slow...like your magic low number of 87whp with webers because you're clueless when it comes to tuning carbs.

 

Whatever though, its not worth arguing with old guys with their mindsets. I deal with tuning modern EFI every day, but at the same time...I know how to tune a carb properly...this is why my car didn't lose power. AFRs are AFRs, get the AFRs proper on a carb car and you make power too. SUs flow better than the stock EFI intake manifold. Go with bigger injectors, custom intake manifold and stand alone (or Z31 /w Nistune) EFI and make more power...because yes, EFI is better for making power. But the stock 280Z EFI is NOT.

 

*You still havent produced a dyno sheet*

 

BTW, in the video....I start moving at 1 second in, not 0, and I'm doing 95 by 15 seconds in. Thats 14 seconds, but I guess with your old age your sight must not be good.

Edited May 27, 2012 by michaelp

[78zstyle]

So sad to see a thread about a legitimate topic about someone needing some advice turn into a pissing match. Very disappointing.

Edited May 27, 2012 by 78zstyle