Hypothetical Engine Swap for 240z

[AlleyCow]

Hey guys, been browsing the forums for a few months and definitely learned a lot. That said, I've got a pretty in-depth question about engine swaps for the 240z. Reason I'm asking is I'm 23 years old and really want a great DD/track sports car while I'm still single and don't care too much about lumbar support. I'm absolutely in love with the 240z, but am concerned that it might not measure up to newer sports cars without throwing down some serious money. I fully realize this is an apples-to-oranges thing, but I specifically have the Honda S2000 in mind.

 

SO... before I get a 240z I'd have to settle on an engine swap, and here's what I'm looking for:

1. 275-350 rwhp. The L24 may have been great in 1971, but it's really old and woefully underpowered in 2012 (even by BRZ standards). On the other extreme, 400+ hp seems excessive for a 2400 lb street car.

2. 6 cylinders a must. Being made by Nissan or being a straight-6 would be cool too. I like the idea of staying true to the 240z's roots, whatever that means.

3. 25-30 MPG. I'd want to keep this car for a while and am pretty darn sure gas is going to $8 a gallon in the next decade.

4. Handling. Higher midrange torque is nice, as is an engine that sits further back and helps with weight distribution.

5. Fuel injection. Kinda necessary given my horsepower & gas mileage expectations, but I also don't want to have to warm my car up every cold start.

6. Ease. I'll be doing most of the work myself and would want to get the swap done in 6 months tops. 2 or 3 months would be great.

7. Low cost. As in I don't want the entire swap+upgrades to cost more than $10k. I also don't want something that breaks down a lot or is expensive to get parts for. A great engine is important, but I'd rather save as much money as possible to put towards handling upgrades. While I'm on the subject, I'd prefer a NA engine. The way I see it, turbos are just a $1,000 expense waiting to happen. You can baby it to delay that $1k service bill, but that's no fun. In short, I'm strongly against turbos for everyday cars.

8. 5 speed transmission. 6 speed would be better. Also, the stick should definitely be able to fit in roughly the same spot as stock.

9. Room for A/C. I've heard this is a problem with the VQ series. Is that still the case with an entirely new system? (Like a Vintage Air unit?)

 

From research I've done already, there aren't any engines out there that fit the bill perfectly. I'm also somewhat aware of the pros/cons of the most common swaps. My big question is which engine do you guys think BEST fulfills the above requirements? L28? RB25? RB30? VQ35? VQ37?

[BluDestiny]

Numbers 2 and 4 don't really work with each other. And your not gonna make a 300hp na engine without spending more than your budget. You'd have a better chance making that with the L28 since it won't require modification to fit. All your other engine choices will require fab work/down time and isn't worth it.

 

If you want it cheap, your gonna need to go turbo. If you want a smaller, lightweight engine that costs $1500 and can make 350hp on stock internal get an sr20. They are cheap, reliable and parts are much more available.

 

I would spend right now just on handling and see where that takes you. I have a pretty stock L28 in my 280zx and I put up respectable lap times in my scca class.

 

That's just my opinion.

Edited August 28, 2012 by BluDestiny

[ctc]

As Blu said, turbo is your best option (L28ET is bolt in) and can be made to live to 250K miles if you buy quality parts and keep the boost at reasonable levels. If you flog anything, it will break at some point. Design the system to handle a certain level of punshiment, that will set the budget. Don't just slam a collection of part together.

 

If you get rid of requirement 2, an LSxx swap will meet pretty much all the other requirements. That will get you closest to your power, MPG and cost goals.

 

It's you car, pick your engine and roll the dice. I would suggest you PM those who have posted swaps you are contmeplating and ask how they like it and what the problems are.

 

And really, if you want S2000 performance, buy one. You will be ahead in the long run. If you want a hobby, swap an engine into a Z.

[_Donovan_]

If I had to do it all over again, I would have fully built the entire car's suspension before even thinking of touching the engine. for what you are wanting I would suggest the same. Actually I would suggest not doing it at all for your case.

 

You need to understand the process and what you are about to get into fully before you even start, otherwise it will never finish and you will never be satisfied. The process of dropping in a new engine seems simple but there is more to it. Yes I can have an old L6 out of the car and a new V8 and trans in and hooked up within a few hours now but that is no where near completing the car.

 

If you want this to be a track car then suspension is going to be your bread and butter, Start looking through the forums for links, experiences, ideas, and hard numbers. Make a list and print out all you find useful and organize into folders and a spreadsheet. After your suspension, brakes, interior, steering, all that is the base of the car is complete you will be putting down the numbers and times that upgrading the engine would have gotten you, and having a lot more fun in a safer manner. From there you can start working on engine and have a platform that can support the huge change.

 

 

 

I just re-read your post and felt like laughing at a few things. Some at the fact that they are silly requests that I doubt will ever see the light of day, some at I can hear myself saying the same thing back in the day. I will go down your list as well and tell you my thoughts.

 

1. 275 - 350 RWHP not to hard to do but you are cutting into that $10k cap pretty hard.

2. 6 cylinders from Nissan, well in my opinion you have 1 option. The RB engine is what you are looking at and there pretty much goes all of that $10k budget. Now I know someone will get on here and tell me otherwise and how you can get the engine and trans for X dollars. I know what you can get them for. But, as every project, figure a cost of the project then double that. I say this because as a first major project and take in account the tools, small parts, mounts, custom work, mistakes, and do overs, that cap is gonna dwindle quick.

3 25 - 30 MPG, I feel as though now you are just making up some wish list like a little child, or a major car manufacturer. As a kid I wanted a car that does 200mph, had wings, could go under water, ran on nuclear power so I never had to stop for gas, and was candy apple red. Car manufactures now want to build a truck with so much HP and torque at so much rpm and so much fuel economy and fits this many and tows this much and has iPod support. not all of it will happen. Think of what you really want in this car and right down realistic ideas. Also, gas mileage never was a part of the equation for any of my fun car purchases or builds.

4 Suspension, see above. In my opinion much more important that the hp you put to the wheels. Ever heard of a car called the Lotus Elise

5 your preference, I will FI.

6 LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

7 still laughing at number 6. uhg, I can not tell you enough how important it is to plan out everything with totals without forgetting the smallest details well in advance of undertaking a car project. If you spend $9k of that $10k budget or whatever budget and you realize you do not have the time, money, or patience to finish, then you just wasted that money and are going to have a sour taste in your mouth about it and your next project. Don't waste you money. If you want it, plan it and do it and do not lose motivation.

8 This line didn't even need to be here

9 A/C you will find out if this is possible through the research you are about to be doing.

 

Now there is a ton of info in this forum, honestly everything you need to know. I can prove that, you should see the amount of paper I went through printing out discussions and pictures and highlighting that I went through before I even fully decided this was what I wanted to do. Even through all that I still come back here to ask questions and search for more answers. So Good Luck, I hope to hear that you started your project. Do not get discouraged just do some inner thinking and hard decisions on what exactly you want. And don't half ass it, be proud of your work and put out a solid project, some day you may be carrying someone you care about in there and you want it as safe as possible and just as impressive.

[240zip]

1) my choice ... L28ET ... this has been discussed SO MANY TIMES ... best value, best power / weight, easiest swap (IMHO). 2) second choice ... V8 JTR also a decent swap, different character to the car v8 vs turbo). 3) third choice ... SR20DET ... lots of aftermarket pieces, more modern, also a good choice. More expensive to do right than an L28ET. I've seen a RB25DE with ITBs ... that may get you to 300 RWHP, but expensive and not all that cost effective.

[240zip]

"If I had to do it all over again, I would have fully built the entire car's suspension before even thinking of touching the engine."

 

So true ... body, suspension, brakes ... then start thinking about the engine

[_Donovan_]

"1) my choice ... L28ET ... this has been discussed SO MANY TIMES ... best value, best power / weight, easiest swap (IMHO). 2) second choice ... V8 JTR also a decent swap, different character to the car v8 vs turbo). 3) third choice ... SR20DET ... lots of aftermarket pieces, more modern, also a good choice. More expensive to do right than an L28ET. I've seen a RB25DE with ITBs ... that may get you to 300 RWHP, but expensive and not all that cost effective. "

 

 

I agree with you on this part. I went with the LT1 option because of an amazing deal I got and the headroom to work with the V8 but I didn't fully want to suggest an engine for him. I thought of going with RB series as well or LS engine but when I researched it all out I believed the LT to be my best option. I hope AlleyCow will come to a conclusion on what engine he wants based on many factors, some to include, availability, engine potential, and most important is personal goals. If you want 350 hp and you know that is all you will ever EVER want then his options may be a little more broad. After I already had my LT engine I found someone on this forum, maybe Braap, that was selling the 5.3 LS engines for a very reasonable price that also was pushing 300+hp out of the box. That would be the next engine I would choose or the LS3 crate engine. But the next Z I start this winter will be done right, complete resto with tube frame. Some serious cash droppage in that bad boy.

 

But it AlleyCow, you just need to research with an open mind. The pieces will fall into place as needed.

[johnc]

Sounds like a troll to me.

 

His benchmark is a Honda S2K yet he's asking for 275 to 350 rwhp and 25 to 30mpg and an easy swap/upgrade all for under $10K. You can't even buy a decent stock S2K for $10 grand which doesn't meet his horsepower or mpg goals.

[GOTHALOSISM]

I love my lt1 swap, just need to get it running correctly again after the head gaskets blew (stupid radiator hose blew apart on me).

[Perfect240z]

I agree with CTC and and Blu, 1 thing that you can bet on is a swap is going to not be cheap with all the fab work, rebuilding the motor, sourcing parts. If you have the Original L24, why not see what power it can make and drive it first for a little while. If its not enough power, You can find an L28 fairly easy and it bolts right in. The power your looking for though will need to go turbo, or you'll need to get some head and block work done to hit your goals. The power your looking for may not be suitable for a D.D. but its up to you, 240z's and the early 260z's are the lightest, so you dont need to get alot of power to get going an it'll be faster/more nimble. On the other hand the later 260z and 280z's are heavier, so you can get the power down better if you want to go LS swap or Rb30. It's your car man, so make it yours.

[Perfect240z]

"If I had to do it all over again, I would have fully built the entire car's suspension before even thinking of touching the engine."

 

So true ... body, suspension, brakes ... then start thinking about the engine

 

 

Thats why im doing all the body first. IM using my stock L24 and going for all the suspension and brake upgrades before putting anything more powerful into the car. DO IT RIGHT TH FIRST TIME

[BrandenZ]

To the OP: Don't do it. Just buy an S2K. It's a terrific daily driver, great on gas when you don't abuse it, and is just a dot 4 fluid swap and set of brake pads away from being excellent on a track. Heck, if you just want to autox it, you can don't need to change anything. You also get A/C right out of the box, and as beautiful as I think a tastefully done Z is, the S2K is also a better "date" car.

 

I daily drive an S2000, and my project / track car is a 240z. After _years_ of investing time and money (more than your current budget) into my Z, I'm just now getting to a point at the regional autox level where I'm _close_ to putting down the times that the lightly-modded S2Ks are running. Getting it there has also cost a lot in the street-ability department as well.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I love my Z, but it has never and will never be as good of a DD as my S2000. Even after years of project work, and replacing virtually everything mechanical on the car, I'm still running into gremlins. Just this past weekend I had an old rubber exhaust hanger break, blowing the last half of my race day and forcing a late-night welding repair just to make the next-day autox event. A few events prior to that, a rubber fuel hose gave on me. A few prior to that, one of the only fasteners I didn't replace on the car gave. As one of the other posters mentioned, it's a brilliant car to buy for a hobby or as a project, but not to satisfy your list, particularly not given your implied budget and available toolset/skillset.

[AlleyCow]

Y'all are awesome. Thank you very much for the helpful responses.

 

Donovan- Heck yeah I'm making up a wish list like a little child! As an adult though, I know full well no engine would meet all my criteria. I just wanted HybridZ's expert opinion on how close I could realistically get to my unrealistic goals.

 

To clarify a little, handling and comfort would definitely take a higher priority than the engine. In fact, I'm working with a $40k total budget and I've already picked out a very detailed list of suspension, steering, electrical, brake, and interior upgrades totaling $18,600 (+/- $3,000 depending on my luck). The majority of them would come BEFORE an engine swap and hopefully make the car perfect for my specified horsepower range. That said, I still want to plan out 100% of my hypothetical project before deciding to make the plunge, if only to minimize the chance of it becoming a big headache.

 

The reason I started this thread is I honestly couldn't find any good info out there that compares various 240z swaps with a "have your cake and eat it too" mentality (low cost + high performance + good DD + "character"). The consensus here is that the L28ET is the best bet, which is what I figured but couldn't be sure of.

 

BrandenZ- Thanks for being so enlightening! I'm also very glad to hear you DD an S2k. The reason I mentioned it as a benchmark is because it has the "have your cake and eat it too" mentality I'm looking for. As far as I can tell, the only big compromises you DO make with an S2k are applicable to ALL roadsters and therefore don't matter when you're only looking at that class of car. That said, your post was definitely an inspiration for me. I'll get a S2k for now, and a project 240z later on when I have more time/money/expertise. I know when I do, HybridZ will definitely be my go-to place!

[AlleyCow]

Again guys, thanks for the guidance.

 

Not to redirect or anything, but some of y'alls responses got me thinking about the scalability of 240z cost/effectiveness. In the first post, I asked how a 240z would compare to a S2000 and got the response that the Z is much more of a enthusiast's project car and inferior for easy DD/track use. With a much higher budget (and unlimited time/patience to work on it), could a 240z ever be improved enough to compete with newer cars of similar price? Not that I have this kind of money, but if you're spending $50k-$80k on a project 240z (and do it right), how would it compare with say a Ferrari 550? Now before I get flamed to hell and back for asking that question, allow me to advance the notion that they're actually very similar cars in form/function. Their vast discrepancies are in performance/luxury, and that's what Z upgrades are designed to help with! I think it's a fair question.

 

Sounds like a troll to me.

 

I swear I'm not trying to be. In a preemptive defense of this post, I couldn't find any info out there comparing an expensive 240z project with a 10 year old "practical" supercar and I'm genuinely curious.

[Perfect240z]

Again guys, thanks for the guidance.

 

Not to redirect or anything, but some of y'alls responses got me thinking about the scalability of 240z cost/effectiveness. In the first post, I asked how a 240z would compare to a S2000 and got the response that the Z is much more of a enthusiast's project car and inferior for easy DD/track use. With a much higher budget (and unlimited time/patience to work on it), could a 240z ever be improved enough to compete with newer cars of similar price? Not that I have this kind of money, but if you're spending $50k-$80k on a project 240z (and do it right), how would it compare with say a Ferrari 550? Now before I get flamed to hell and back for asking that question, allow me to advance the notion that they're actually very similar cars in form/function. Their vast discrepancies are in performance/luxury, and that's what Z upgrades are designed to help with! I think it's a fair question.

 

 

 

I swear I'm not trying to be. In a preemptive defense of this post, I couldn't find any info out there comparing an expensive 240z project with a 10 year old "practical" supercar and I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

Here look at this whole thread. I think it was about 100k-120k spent on this 240z. But this is just about one of those 240z's with the money your talking about.

 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/74214-full-on-resto-mod-of-a-240z/page__hl__blaktout

[AlleyCow]

Here look at this whole thread. I think it was about 100k-120k spent on this 240z. But this is just about one of those 240z's with the money your talking about.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/74214-full-on-resto-mod-of-a-240z/page__hl__blaktout

 

Thanks, but I'm already very familiar with Jared Cullop's 240z. The problem is I've only seen discussions of what he's done, how he did it, and how much of an accomplishment it was. It truly was an awesome feat, but I'm more interested in if it was worth it from a cost/performance standpoint. Sure it's a great sports car but is that like Ferrari 550 great or more like turbo Miata great?

 

*Again, fully realizing that the 240z and a lot of other cars aren't directly comparable. The 550 for instance has twice as many cylinders and weighs 50% more among other things. Just trying to get a feel for what other sexy 2 seat front engine RWD sports cars I could get for the cost of a big project Z.*

Edited August 29, 2012 by AlleyCow

[_Donovan_]

If you are going to do something like restoring a Z or building a Z with engine change, you got to LOVE that Z. It is not a "well, that sounds cool" kind of thing unless you are the type that have done many things like that in the past. If someone calls you a troll do not take it as disrespect, many people show up here and there first post sounds just like yours, then they say how much money they have or plan at throwing towards it. The reality is most do not have the funds, patience, time, etc to finish such a project. These projects either never start or are not finished and people either waste their money and/or other people's time.

 

If you can look in your bank account and see $40k you say, then you need to ask yourself what is important to you. I say many times "if I could do it all over I would do this..." what I really should say is if I could do it all over I would not have started trying to tune my own cars, I would have tried to be a doctor or something. I am like a lot of people here completely involved in it like it is my job, looking up parts, reading forums, planning out systems, all of it. If you are like this then sure, jump right in, you will LOVE having a car that you are driving down the road knowing you have personally replaced every bolt on it, a few times usually.

 

If this does not sound like you and you honestly just want a car that is quick and somewhat flashy and can handle the track as well, I know exactly what I would do with that cash.

 

I would go get a C5 Vette FRC or Z06 model. If you look hard enough and wait for winter you can get a great deal on one. I bought my C5 for Z06 from Ohio in January with 70k miles for $14k. Now you take that and go grab an A&A supercharger for another $5k ish and there you go. 500hp with good gas mileage and can shred a track and you probably will not even have $22k in it. even if you don't opt for the supercharger, it is an amazing car.

 

Now for me, I prefer my Z, but I have had this thing for 12 years and have a lot of history, sweat, and blood in her. I enjoy it because it is mine and I have fought many battles with it, from a break down the first day I owned it to changing the rear struts. You got to figure out what fits you man and go for it, maybe even try to find someone close and take a ride in their V8 Z, or Rb Z, or L28ET Z, whatever you can find.

 

Good luck and sorry I ramble on too much.

[_Donovan_]

BTW, the S2000 is a chick car, jk

[BrandenZ]

AlleyCow -- If you happen to find yourself near the Atlanta area over an autox weekend, PM me. You can hop in for a few ride-alongs in my BSP Z, then jump in a B stock or STR S2K and see what you think. My build has similar goals as what you mentioned, with the exception that I knew from the get-go I'd be building something more for autox/track purposes but still wanted it to be street legal. I've been working over the last 2 autox seasons to really dial in the suspension, brakes, and alignment and learning to really drive the chassis. Currently it still has an N/A L-series motor in it, probably putting down a whooping 120 HP to the rear wheels (if I'm being generous). After another season of tweaks, she'll probably end up with an LS1 tossed in over the off-season.

 

In terms of cost / performance, now after many many years of investment and tuning, I'm extremely happy. For me it's a bit about the love of the original Z and building something exceptionally unique essentially from the ground-up. Of course, the fact that I was starting from a 2300/2400lb, RWD car with an engine bay big enough to fit virtually anything certainly didn't hurt. All that said, I've still got a friend with a nearly stock Lotus Elise that will show up at events and run similar times as me, so take that for what it's worth!

 

Donovan -- Very well said! I agree with every one of your comments but the last! Aside from the S2K, I think the C5 is one of the absolute best bang-for-the-buck cars out there.

[BrandenZ]

BTW, the S2000 is a chick magnet

 

Corrected for truth!

 

Any car that only comes in a manual transmission and does not have a mirror on the driver's side sun shade simply cannot be a chick car. I think you're thinking of a Miata...