End of Turbo Swap woes

[aarang]

Just to clarify on the igniter.... The blue wire goes to the negative side of the coil along with the blue wire on the car side ( the tach signal) . The black wire with the white line is actually the positive wire or the ignition hot. The wire from the ECU ( yellow with white) triggers the igniter. So on the igniter plug there should only be the black with white stripe wire and the yellow with white stripe wire.

[jaromgi]

update!

 

Some good news and some bad news.  The reason I wasn't getting any ignition was that one of the fusible links had blown in a way that was not obvious without doing some checking with the multimeter.  The fusible link was the one going to the injectors, so they were not getting any power.  This explained the lack of flooding, but also the lack of ignition.

 

I pulled a spare link from the parts car, and the injectors got power!  I tried to fire it up, but it would just backfire and then sputter out.  At this point, the fuel in the tank (only about 1/8 of a tank when I parked it) is about a year old, so I thought that could be causing the backfiring.  I purchased 5  gallons of new gas and put it into the tank.

 

I was working on the car with Nismopick, and he suggested the timing could also be off.  We put the car at TDC, and pulled the distributor.  A previous owner had cut away half of the bracket at the base of the distributor, to give it more play for adjusting timing.  Well, they had also done something so that the rotor was no longer in sync.  When I took it apart later, it  the rotor was cracked, and it looked like they had tried to fix it with glue.

 

 

I tried to buy a new rotor, but O'Reilly gave me the wrong sized rotor.  While I was returning the wrong sized rotor, I took the distributor with me to show them it was the wrong size.  While it was there, it broke (as you can see in the base picture), so now I can't even use it.

 

So now, here is my dilemma: Neither O'Reilly, Napa, or Autozone carries the 81 distributor.  Oh, they say they do, but you can see pretty clearly it is actually the 82/83 turbo distributor.

 

Long story to get to a relatively short question.

 

Has anybody plugged in the 82/83 turbo distributor into an 81 and had it work?  Obviously, the crank angle in the 82/83 won't have a proper connection, but I'm more worried about just getting a functioning distributor in there.

Edited August 9, 2013 by jaromgi

[skirkland1980]

Oreilly sold me a rotor that didn't fit my 83 turbo dizzy. I ordered one from MSA. Could you use a large flat washer on the bolt?

[jaromgi]

8/9 update

 

I did some research on the 82/83 distributor, and it looks like it won't fit because the shaft leading from the distributor to the oil pump is too different.  (example in the pics, here).  However, it also shows that the connection is the same between N/A distributors and the 81 turbo.

 

Before work this morning, I snagged the 81 N/A distributor and the mounting bracket for it and put it onto the turbo.  I didn't attach the sensors or vacuum line to the 81 N/A distributor.  The car fired right up!  It still idles unevenly, but I don't have all of the vacuum lines in place yet.

 

video is here.

 

Still, I will take progress in any form I can get it.  Thanks for all of the help so far, guys.

Edited August 9, 2013 by jaromgi

[Tony D]

The 81 unit is a distributor.

 

The 82/83 is properly referred to as a "CAS Unit" with the additional fact that the distributor cap is integral with it...

 

The 81 uses a standard distributor drive as angularity of up to 30 degrees is acceptable.

 

The 82/83 uses a spline-drive unit as angularity must be within 1/2 a degree as the CAS returns a 360 degree count to the ECCS ECU

[jaromgi]

9/6 update:

 

So I finally tried to measure the timing on the car, and it ended up being approximately 55 degrees advanced.  I set the engine to TDC to see where the rotor positioned.  Unsurprisingly, the dizzy rotor was off by a fair margin.  I did some searching, and it looked like the oil pump had been removed and then installed with the oil pump spindle misaligned.

 

I figured as long as I had to drop the oil pump and realign the spindle, I might as well upgrade to the 82/83 turbo dizzy at the same time.  I found one from a working car on ebay for fairly cheap.

 

When it got it it all put back together, this happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI2Q-L7zjhc

 

I took it apart again, because it sounded like the timing was still way off.  I set the engine to TDC again, and made 100% sure that the rotor was in the #1 spark plug wire position before putting it all back together.

 

I was able to get the car to run for a couple of minutes, but only by turning the distributor as far counterclockwise as it would go.  It ran for about 2 minutes, and I was setting up the timing light to check the timing, but then the engine died and wouldn't start again while warm.

 

Any more suggestions?  To be clear, I am still using the 81 CAS, because when I hooked up the wiring harness to the 82/83 CAS/distributor combo, the car wouldn't even get spark.

[Tony D]

"A previous owner had cut away half of the bracket at the base of the distributor, to give it more play for adjusting timing. "

 

They cut it because they were a tooth off and didn't want to pull the oil pump to fix it. This is why you found the 55 advancement...

 

Did you read the 81 Turbo Supplement about using the rod to phase-synch the rotor to the distributor?

[jaromgi]

They cut it because they were a tooth off and didn't want to pull the oil pump to fix it.

 

That is exactly what I was figuring, hence dropping the pump and readjusting it while the engine was at TDC.

 

I didn't think to look at the 81 turbo supplement because I was installing a 82 turbo CAS/distributor, pump and spindle.  I did follow the Haynes manual for the installation of the pump, though. If you are talking about the instructions on LC-3&4, then those are the same directions as in the Haynes manual.

[NewZed]

Seems like you are mixing up adjusting timing with adjusting rotor position (phasing, I think some call it).  Timing is just when the coil discharges.  This is adjusted with the 81 CAS by moving the sensor at the pulley.  Described on EF-46.  When the spark happens it will then jump to the closest terminal to the rotor tip.  If the rotor is not closest to the #1 position terminal, the spark will jump to the one in front or behind.  #4 or #5.  #1 will then get its spark when #4 or #5 should have got theirs.

 

So when you rotate the distributor on your 81 crank-mounted CAS all you're doing is moving the point at which the terminal gets its spark.  If you move it too far, the "timing" will be way off, like a whole cylinder's worth.

 

Phase the rotor position to #1 using distributor rotation and/or plug wire position, then adjust the CAS at the pulley to set timing.

[jaromgi]

Thanks for the explanation on the distinction between phasing and timing; I admit that I thought that adjusting the phasing would also adjust the timing.  I know I can always count on Hybridz to give a good explanation.

 

To be clear, I did also adjust the CAS to try and adjust the timing  on the engine.  It was not an easy task.  It required moving the AC adjuster pulley just to get to the bolts on the CAS   I used EF-46 to figure out how to adjust the timing, but unfortunately, it didn't really seem to be much help.  Basically, it says to adjust the CAS up or down on its bracket depending on whether you want to retard or advance the timing.  Since it seemed to be most of the way up, I decided to move it down; this did not help the engine run.

 

The FSM does not give a way to really set the timing when you can't even get the engine to start, at least not that I've been able to find.  The next plan is to try different positions of the CAS.  Unfortunately, I don't know enough from just listening to the engine if I need to advance or retard the timing.  Any pointers?

Edited September 7, 2013 by jaromgi

[Tony D]

"The FSM does not give a way to really set the timing when you can't even get the engine to start, at least not that I've been able to find.  The next plan is to try different positions of the CAS.  Unfortunately, I don't know enough from just listening to the engine if I need to advance or retard the timing.  Any pointers?"

 

Get a timing light.

 

Start with proper installation of the oil pump and drive spindle, with the rod through the #1 tower and rotor to make sure it's in phase properly with #1

 

If that does not allow the rotor to fit or needs the distributor to be twisted to some odd angle, the distributor drive gear has spun on the shaft.

 

At that point of determination, you can choose to continue to try with a failing component, or replace the shaft with a new one that isn't spun and likely won't spin. Pin the shaft as discussed elsewhere here and you will never worry again about it spinning.

 

If you do not choose to repair it in the correct manner, or just have to get it running because of the fire and you can't push it uphill to save it and the priceless family heirlooms and baby harp seals inside.... then you need a timing light.

 

Start again by eyeballing phasing to #1. Then using the timing light at idle, check to make sure the timing is as required in the FSM (20 degrees as I recall?) and you're done.

 

The difference between the 81 CAS on the crank, and the 82/83 CAS is that PHASING is INDEPENDENT of TIMING on the 81. To change TIMING you DO NOT 'twist the dissy' -- all you do with that trick is screw up the cap to rotor alignment angle (by definition centering the rotor on the #1 Plug Tower at 20 Degrees BTDC, allowing a reasonable advance of 35 degrees total to still keep the rotor centered (relatively) in relation to the plug tower. Start turning the distributor without adjusting the CAS to alter your timing....and all you do is increase the chance that once you hit full advance under drop throttle that the tower spark jumps to the next tower in sequence (the towers are only separated by 60 degrees, so advance it enough independently of cap position and you can easily jump forward with the spark to the next tower and it will continue there until advance goes away and it jumps back to the right terminal.)

 

On the 82/83 CAS, since it's resident in the housing that holds the cap---the phasing and timing is in the same relative positions, so twisting the cap to get it all correct after the distributor drive gear has slipped is relatively easy....if you have a timing light.

 

If you have an 81 CAS, there is only so much timing you can crank in by adjusting the CAS position relative to the paddle wheels on the crankshaft. If the distributor drive gear slips, replacing the shaft is the only real alternative as the phasing will never line up. and even if you jump a tooth on the drive gear, you may still need to crank in more twist to get phasing correct.

[jaromgi]

Thanks again for the advice on what to do next.
 

Get a timing light.

I have a timing light.
 

Start with proper installation of the oil pump and drive spindle, with the rod through the #1 tower and rotor to make sure it's in phase properly with #1

I did not use a rod through the #1 tower.  I tried, but the FSM 81 turbo supplement never mentioned having to drill a hole in the distributor cap, and I am hesitant to start drilling holes in the cap unless I know that is the right course of action. To be clear, none of the caps I have used have come with a hole in the #1 tower.  Am I supposed to drill though the cap to get the rod through?  I am confident, however, that it is in phase with #1.  The cap has the mark down the side showing where the #1 position is, and so I marked that location from the cap on the CAS.  When the engine is at TDC, the rotor is in line with that mark.
 
If I am supposed to drill a hole in the distributor cap, then I will do that and use a rod for the install.
 

If that does not allow the rotor to fit or needs the distributor to be twisted to some odd angle, the distributor drive gear has spun on the shaft.

The rotor fits just fine and the distributor does not need to be twisted at any weird angle that I can tell.  It fights on tight, snug, and without great difficulty. Twisting the rotor was, apparently mistakenly, in an effort to get the timing right, not to make it fit.
 

At that point of determination, you can choose to continue to try with a failing component, or replace the shaft with a new one that isn't spun and likely won't spin. Pin the shaft as discussed elsewhere here and you will never worry again about it spinning.

If you do not choose to repair it in the correct manner, or just have to get it running because of the fire and you can't push it uphill to save it and the priceless family heirlooms and baby harp seals inside.... then you need a timing light.
 
Start again by eyeballing phasing to #1. Then using the timing light at idle, check to make sure the timing is as required in the FSM (20 degrees as I recall?) and you're done.

No heirloom flamable baby seals at the top of the hill for me.  I am mostly concerned with getting it running correctly.  If I wanted a cheap fix, I would have done what the previous owner did, just start hacking at the distributor, rotor, and cap until I could get it started.  As I said before, though, even this idea isn't really an option as the car won't turn over, let alone idle so that I can check the timing.
 

The difference between the 81 CAS on the crank, and the 82/83 CAS is that PHASING is INDEPENDENT of TIMING on the 81. To change TIMING you DO NOT 'twist the dissy' -- all you do with that trick is screw up the cap to rotor alignment angle (by definition centering the rotor on the #1 Plug Tower at 20 Degrees BTDC, allowing a reasonable advance of 35 degrees total to still keep the rotor centered (relatively) in relation to the plug tower. Start turning the distributor without adjusting the CAS to alter your timing....and all you do is increase the chance that once you hit full advance under drop throttle that the tower spark jumps to the next tower in sequence (the towers are only separated by 60 degrees, so advance it enough independently of cap position and you can easily jump forward with the spark to the next tower and it will continue there until advance goes away and it jumps back to the right terminal.)

I understand that the CAS is built into the 82/83 distributor/CAS combo and that it is different in the 81 turbo.  This is why I bought the oil pump spindle and distributor from a running 82 turbo; I didn't want to have to adjust the 81 CAS.  Unfortunately, when I hooked up the EFI wiring harness to the 82/83 CAS wiring, it wouldn't even send spark, so I went back to the 81 turbo CAS.
 
My misunderstanding on changing the timing by twisting the distributor comes videos like this, where they show the timing being adjusted by twisting the distributor either clockwise or counterclockwise.  I am trying to learn as I go, so I appreciate your clarification.
 

On the 82/83 CAS, since it's resident in the housing that holds the cap---the phasing and timing is in the same relative positions, so twisting the cap to get it all correct after the distributor drive gear has slipped is relatively easy....if you have a timing light.

I have the timing light, but it seems pretty useless without a running car.  And again, if I could get the car to give spark using the 82/83 CAS, I would use it in a heartbeat.
 

If you have an 81 CAS, there is only so much timing you can crank in by adjusting the CAS position relative to the paddle wheels on the crankshaft. If the distributor drive gear slips, replacing the shaft is the only real alternative as the phasing will never line up. and even if you jump a tooth on the drive gear, you may still need to crank in more twist to get phasing correct.

I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.  I understand that I have limited control over how much I can adjust the 81 CAS.  I am not sure what you mean by the distributor gear slipping, though.  Do you mean the drive spindle that connects it to the oil pump?

[Tony D]

Yes, the distributor drive gear can slip on the shaft -- if that happened, and you are using an 81CAS, you"re screwed if its slipped enough. I've seen them slip 180+ degrees on one run, get corrected, slip 7 degrees on the second run. Those two runs lunched 5 pistons...

 

A timing light tells you where timing is....if you aren't getting a flash....you don't need to worry about timing, you need to worry about where you are loosing signal to the CPU for spark signal...

 

Checking he yellow wire from the ECU to the Ignitor is a good place as any to start...not there, you need to check CAS Input to ECU.

 

Break it down into its simplistic components, and you will figure it ou!

[jaromgi]

Yes, the distributor drive gear can slip on the shaft -- if that happened, and you are using an 81CAS, you"re screwed if its slipped enough. I've seen them slip 180+ degrees on one run, get corrected, slip 7 degrees on the second run. Those two runs lunched 5 pistons...

 

Well, that's pretty terrifying. Any way to check for slippage without getting the engine to turn over?

 

A timing light tells you where timing is....if you aren't getting a flash....you don't need to worry about timing, you need to worry about where you are loosing signal to the CPU for spark signal...

The problem isn't that the timing light doesn't flash, the problem is that It is hard to get an accurate reading when the only thing turning the engine is the starter motor.  It just doesn't spin the motor fast enough to cause enough flashes to read.

 

Checking he yellow wire from the ECU to the Ignitor is a good place as any to start...not there, you need to check CAS Input to ECU.

 

Break it down into its simplistic components, and you will figure it ou!

Thanks for the encouragement!

[cgsheen]

Used to date a girl in Springville - Redhead named Sandra...

[Tony D]

"The problem isn't that the timing light doesn't flash,"

 

The PROBLEM is you don't have a flash! NOT that the flash is in the wrong spot.

 

All this "no spark" troubleshooting is in the FSM, quit complaining about the trees in your way, step back and see the FOREST!