Turbo build

[Boog]

Hey forum, I've been a lurker for a while, mostly coming on to figure out how to solve my problems with my car. I figured I'd get some input from more experienced members on what path I should take with my build.

 

Well, let me just tell you my current plan for the my car. I have a 76 280z, and I'm hoping to do a turbo swap on it in the very near future. I currently have a stage 3 N42 head on my stock engine that I was planning on swapping over to a l28et when the time comes. I'm looking to get around 200-250 hp out of the engine. So far, my plan is to find a l28et, throw it on a stand, tear it down, and learn about it, because I'm not super knowledgeable on engines. As I do that, I'll clean and replace things as needed, following a rebuild book. This is the first time I've ever written this down, so it's kind of interesting for me to see where my head is at, haha.....Anyways, I'm just realizing now I probably don't need anything aftermarket for that amount of power, but I was thinking a fuel rail just to clean up the bay a little. 

 

Pretty much I have two possible paths for my build. The first is to buy a l28et and rebuild it, and then swap it in. The second is to accumulate the necessary parts to convert my current engine to a turbo setup. My only concern I want to have the car drivable until the swap, and also having a solid setup to fall back on if the turbo swap doesn't go as planned. 

 

Any suggestions, criticism, or input would be appreciated. I don't have a huge budget for the build, and essentially what I would like is to have a l28et in my car that is solid enough to build up in the future if I ever feel the need for more power (or should I say, when I feel the need for more power  ).

 

Thank you guys in advance! This is a great community!

 

[ctc]

Since you are asking for suggestions, so first thing is to research on how stout the stock bottom end is both turbo and NA.  Most engines will not require a re-build just to put on a turbo at low boost levels.

 

As for the swap

 

The wiring change to incorporate the L28ET, would IMHO, be significant enough that you wouldn't "go back" easilly if the swap doesn't go as planned.  I would take one of two paths.

 

1) Buy a complete L28ET swap, that doesn't need a rebuild (most don't).  Complete the swap and get it running.  Then rebuild the L28E for turbo work as time and money permit.  That will be the back-up plan.

 

2) Invest in a MegaSquirt or similar aftermarket ECU, wire it into the 76 using the L28E to get it working.  Now purchase the parts to do a staged build of a turbo motor. At that point you will have the engine management to control whatever level of power you want to push it to.

 

Engine management will be the key to any power level you would like to achieve.

Edited October 2, 2013 by ctc

[Gollum]

ctc gave great advice, and much along the lines of what I'd suggest as well.

 

Being able to revert back might sound like a good idea, and that's totally doable, as long as you do it right. But honestly the L28ET swap is so easy very few ever get hung up on the actual swap itself. If people get hung up it's because they can't get it running right for some very simple reason that they fail to find.

 

Like ctc said, #1 just throw a L28ET in there AS-IS. If you want rebuild experience, rebuild your NA engine after the turbo engine is running well. If you start messing with the turbo engine before installing it, chances are that much greater that there will be complications with the swap. I'd even advise to leave the stock fuel rail on, simply to NOT PULL ANYTHING OFF before sticking the engine in. Once the engine is in, swapping the rail is only an afternoon's job and easily performed with the engine in the car. This way you know it worked BEFORE, AFTER you install something. Take this route on EVERYTHING, even the EGR if you're going to remove it.

 

And to ctc's #2 point, megasquirt is HIGHLY recommended. If you get a '81 donor, check your timing religiously, and be very careful with the motor. The '81 CAS on the crank is extremely prone to failure but it doesn't fail by not working, but instead giving erratic readings. Those erratic readings lead to erratic timing which leads to engine damage. Here's a break down of what it takes to do a nicely implemented MS conversion that removes many "issues" with the stock nissan systems:

MS2 - Assembled unit $450

Wiring Harness Premade and labeled (just saves you tons of time is all) - $70

Relay Board (can totally skip that if you've added your own relays for the turbo swap, just makes things convenient) - $100

 - If you go with the relay board you skip the wiring harness and get a relay cable ($80) and a labeled wire bundle ($46) instead. Personally I'd go without the relay board for a ground up install like in L28ET

Trigger wheel on crank $50 (includes costs to mount it)

Coil Pack $100 (could vary greatly depending on what you choose to go with and your parts source, can get them for next to free on craigslist if you search long enough)

Wideband $210 (NEEDED to tune anything. If you have a friend with one he can lend you the cost just becomes a $10 bung to weld on)

 

And then you'll just have misc costs on top of that, like IAT sensor, maybe a throttle out of a KA for it's easier to use TPS, etc. All said, a $1,000 budget can certainly get it done if you're careful, and you'll have QUALITY spark control along with fully programmable fuel, something that all L28ET engines I've seen desperately need.

 

No, as for power, you're right, not much is needed.

 

A 100% bone stock L28ET might put around 175 to the wheels just raising boost to around 9-10 psi on an otherwise completely stock setup. The same exact setup adding the megasquirt should net you probably a good 25+ hp at peak, and tons of power under the curve where you can really dial things in. Add an intercooler and you can now max out the stock turbo which will get you close to the limits of the stock injectors, which puts you around 250whp. But with megasquirt already handy you can easily swap injectors, and even find a cheap T3/T4 someone has lying around and now you've got all the pieces you need to put 300 to the wheels. At that point you're going to start MAJORLY exceeding certain systems on the car like, brakes, transmission, tires, etc

 

Also keep in mind that it only takes around 225-250 to the wheels to be keeping up with most anything off a factory show room, even a ZO6 vette.

 

The biggest investment you can make on any engine is a programmable EFI system. In the long run it's a SMALL COST compared to not doing it. I know someone that went through THREE turbo longblocks before figuring out it was his '81 CAS killing his engines...That's a lot of time, money, and headache. Save yourself all that by having a system in which you KNOW what's going on and can thus FIX problems that can destroy your engine.

[Boog]

Thank you for all the input so far. So what I am gathering is that I should buy a running engine (turbo), swap it in, rebuild my current engine, and then swap the turbo parts over to it. Megasquirt was discussed, should I implement that as soon as possible? Is it easy to convert MS from non turbo to turbo? I have heard it is easier to learn how to tune on a non turbo. If I didn't swap to MS asap, could I run the  l28et on my current wiring? Or do I need the 280zx engine harness? Again, thanks for the responses. I am actually looking into picking up a l28et pulled from a running car in the next few days that I found near me.

[Gollum]

You could certainly get MS running on your current engine and swap it over. In fact, that's an ideal way to do it, it's just that most people want power NOW, and aren't willing to go through the growing pains of learning how to tune when the HP rewards are very minimal.

 

Wiring difference between the two will be non-existent. Meaning if you have a NA running megasquirt, there's ZERO work to be done on the hardware end of things to convert over to turbo. ALL changes will happen on the software end.

 

One of the larger obstacles in getting MS installed for people is figuring out a way to send trigger info to megasquirt. ALL EFI systems need a way to figure out engine speed. The stock EFI just uses signal from the coil, like the tach, and that works if the spark is being handled by a distributor running mechanical and/or vacuum advance. If you want your ECU to control spark as well (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, and just about REQUIRED for force induction and even the factory L28ET had ECU controlled spark) then you need a way to tell WHERE the crank is, not just how fast it's going.

 

There's two common ways people achieve this. 

 

1. Put a wheel on the crankshaft. which can look like this:

 

Or maybe this:

 

Either way they accomplish the same goal. There's teeth that a VR sensor can "see" magnetically, and there's a missing tooth so the ECU can sync to the actual position relative to TDC. This method requires not just mounting the wheel, but mounting the sensor too. The big pro to this method is that once synced it's EXACT with NO SLOP as you're reading the crank itself. The big con is that you can't run full sequential ignition or fuel. But that's not exactly necessary and MANY MANY MANY OEM factory setups use batch injection along with wasted spark, same as you'd be running using this trigger setup.

 

The second common way is to use a '82-'83 turbo distributor (which has an optical CAS inside of it) and to mate it with this trigger wheel:

 

 

Which can be bought here:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/54-mm-optical-trigger-wheel-for-nissan-l28et-or-vg30e-p-497.html

 

The big upside to that is that it's pretty much a drop in affair, and you can now run sequential everything if you have hardware that supports it (MS2 doesn't support sequential injection on a 6 cylinder, and can be a bit of trouble getting sequential spark imo, and you're better off just running waste spark to keep your output count down). This is a great option if you want to spend the extra bucks to go with a MS3X setup (which will add a good $300+ to your budget, if not more). Overall it's just a damn simple way to go, and many people like that, even for a batch fire/wasted spark setup. The huge downside is that the timing won't be AS SOLID as the crank arrangement. On the upside it should be more solid than using a trigger wheel directly on the crank, because the distributor shaft is directly connected to the crank via a GEAR instead of a CHAIN like the cam. But no matter what in the end the shaft can still vibrate, shift slightly from accel to decel, and people HAVE see distributor shafts jump a gear! Granted those cases have been extreme, but I'm just throwing it out there.

 

The other possibility is to do the simply dizzy option initially, and the add a crank signal down the road for stability, and just use the dizzy signal for cam sync up.

 

BUT that all requires you FINDING a turbo dizzy. If you get one with your turbo motor:     

 

Personally, for your application I'd go with a MS2 box with the dizzy with NO trigger wheel (just using the stock CAS signal as it comes out of the dizzy wiring), as well documented in the FAQs here on the site. All you need to get going is a turbo dizzy, Intake Air Temp Sensor, a MS2 box, some wiring, fuses, and relays and a wideband and you're pretty much ready to rock.

 

Also, on a side note: If you get a WHOLE L28ET with EFI and everything, and you plan on going megasquirt asap, I'd consider getting the engine running on a engine stand, or even on a crate, with the existing wiring, and then sell the WHOLE THING to someone to recoupe costs. I've see guys sell complete EFI setups for about $500 in some cases. That's some good change to go towards injectors, fuel rail, megasquirt, etc. The key is to show that it's in WORKING ORDER and ready to go with no modifications. People like that.

[Boog]

Awesome, thanks for laying out my options. The pictures helped. One question I still have is if I get a l28et but don't want to drop the money for MS quite yet, can I wire up and run a l28et on my 76 factory ecu? Will it run? I want to get a MS setup, but I don't want to spend extra on a 280zx ecu, and then spend more on the MS later, and have to rewire everything twice. 

[Gollum]

That question doesn't have a straight forward answer, but to put it simply I wouldn't recommend it.

 

You CAN use the 76 ecu if you also use the 76 AFM, dizzy, and injectors... but you'd have to basically keep the motor out of boost if you wanted it to live very long.

 

Find a L28ET that has EVERYTHING, and don't expect to pay more than $800 for it. Even that is HIGH. There's actually an entire turbo CAR in Reno right now for $900, and the damn thing runs and drives! The downside is that it's a '81, which means it doesn't have the dizzy you'd be looking for. I paid $200 for my last turbo engine, and the only thing missing was the wiring harness, ECU, and turbo. I got everything else. If I was willing to pay an extra $200 the guy would have let me take the whole thing, even whole car if I wanted it...

[Chris83zxt]

Also keep in mind that it only takes around 225-250 to the wheels to be keeping up with most anything off a factory show room, even a ZO6 vette.

 

This is true.  My mods (until the MS3 starts going in this weekend) are boost controller at 11psi, fmic, hollowed out cat, decent boost gauge and a wideband w/ A/F ratio meter*, and I went 1 and 1 racing a Charger SRT8 a couple of weeks back.  We've got a big weight advantage on these new powerful piggies.

 

*and very fat tires that get me some nice launches.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Chris83zxt

[Boog]

My problem is I don't have space to have a whole second car at my house. I've also been searching for a few months and there really isn't anything in my area. The only option I have right now is a '81 that's 5 hours away, and I'm considering that just because of my situation....I'll keep my eyes open for a 82-83 car though I can pull stuff from......

[ctc]

Given the distance and the fact that it is an 81, here is what I would do....

 

Get mega squirt up and running on the L28E. This will get you over the wiring hurdle. It's not worth buying the turbo block without ALL the accessories (ecu, wire harnesses, coil, AFM). The L28E will handle low boost fine and will not need the lower compression of the turbo dished pistons.

 

With engine management complete, find a turbo exhaust manifold and turbo, should only be a couple hundred dollars if you keep you eyes open. A little exhaust work, some intake piping and retune the software and there is your turbo setup.

 

Next step is an intercooler and a boost controller and you are right where you want to be.

[Boog]

That is actually what I would love to do, the only problem is I'm not sure if my bottom end can handle boost. I'm not sure what shape it's in, I put on a perfect stage 3 head when I found that my original was warped from overheating. The mechanic who did the swap said my bottom end was decent, but I don't know what that exactly means.......I do like the idea of MS first though. Which should I run? Would MS2 work fine for my plans? I've heard converting isn't hard, just time consuming. And I have all winter, haha.

[Boog]

Also, would it be better to re-wire my engine bay with a MS 12' harness, or get one of these

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/18-megasquirt-pigtail-harness-p-114.html

 

and just solder all the proper connections?

[Gollum]

That is actually what I would love to do, the only problem is I'm not sure if my bottom end can handle boost. I'm not sure what shape it's in, I put on a perfect stage 3 head when I found that my original was warped from overheating. The mechanic who did the swap said my bottom end was decent, but I don't know what that exactly means.......I do like the idea of MS first though. Which should I run? Would MS2 work fine for my plans? I've heard converting isn't hard, just time consuming. And I have all winter, haha.

 

Yes, it can. Even if it's in mediocre shape it'll do just fine for your needs. There have been guys making 400hp on OEM NA bottom ends. And the people that HAVE blown up a NA to turbo setup weren't running programmable EFI 90% of the time. Would I recommend running an un-tuned turbo EFI setup on a higher compression flat top setup? No, not a great idea. But if you've already got the megasquirt you can run virtually any setup you want an tune appropriately. 

 

Also, would it be better to re-wire my engine bay with a MS 12' harness, or get one of these

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/18-megasquirt-pigtail-harness-p-114.html

 

and just solder all the proper connections?

 

First, try to limit soldering, and if you do solder anything make sure it's a "floating" wire, meaning it's not clamped down to anything that could vibrate. Solder joints don't like vibration, and an automotive application is full of that. So just keep that in mind if you choose to solder, that you want to make sure there's plenty of cushion around that prevents vibration.

 

And second, don't but that, when for just a few bucks more you can get this:

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/839-megasquirt-wiring-harness-ms1-ms2-ms3-ready-p-477.html

 

All the length you need to wire your engine from scratch and have continuous wires from ECU to Input/Output.

[Boog]

Awesome! So what should I do instead of soldering? 

 

An update on the engine. I found an 82 engine that runs and has all accessories besides the ecu a few hours north in Canada for 300, so as soon as I get pics I'm jumping on that deal. It has a pallnet? fuel rail and besides that is stock. My plan is to buy the engine, swap the dizzy onto my current engine, get a MS set up, and then clean up the turbo engine while I learn MS on my NA with the 82 dizzy. Thoughts?

[SleeperZ]

Sounds like a good plan.

[ctc]

Keep us posted and/or start a build thread. Just by trying to explain it to others you figure a lot of things out. Those are the face palm moments.

[Boog]

I'll definitely start a build thread if I get the engine. i have tons of pictures already documenting the stuff I've done already, may as well throw them up on a thread. As always, thanks for input.

[Gollum]

Sounds like the right kind of deal. The Pallnet rail is named after a user here who sells fuel rails. Quite common in these circles. Defintely jump on it though, even if it's non-driveable and has to be towed. Will cost you less than $150 in gas, which is far less than the other car you were looking at. Most tow dollies shouldn't run more than $50 for a day too,

[Boog]

Oh it's not a car, just the engine. Comes with an extra intake manifold and the fuel rail, and some injector coil setup? Not sure what it is exactly but if it is what I think it is, I'm going to put it on my 76 engine and run MS until I can swap in the big guy.

[Six_Shooter]

Just for reference I added a turbo to my N/A L28, and beat on it like I hate it.

 

With tuning I've ran as much as 20 PSIG of boost on it, usually I run it at around 17, since I haven't had time to really fine tune for the 20 PSIG.

 

I didn't use an MS though, I'm running a different ECM, that I feel is better for a few reasons, cheaper, on board diagnostics, easy to find, and can be tuned in real time with the right equipment or tuned by chip swapping, for less money. I use a Delco ECM (GM) From a turbo Sunbird, that uses custom code. I have also ran an ECM from a '87 to '89 F-body/Vette with Australian code that converts it to speed density and some other really cool features.

 

In your situation I'd decide on an EFI system, install it and get used to it. You can then add the turbo bits or swap the entire L28ET into the car. Both ways will work.