9rider Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 So I drove my car down to Los Angles area to get estimate in how much to weld in my frame rails. Most auto body shop ( El monte , City industry, Temple city.) give out quote for around $800 to 900. That is just to weld the frame in while I must strip all interior , fuel rails, cut the rusty frame parts, brush wire the welding area, ..ect.. Is that too much or is that normal? About my welding skill, I have a HF wire feed weld from Chicago Electric and it is really a spark box, I could weld my exhaust but it looked like crap ( no leak though) .So, I decide to give the welding part to some one professional since it will involve with the car's chassis and I don't want to make a hole through the floor panel. Any recommendation for welding shop around Los Angeles area? Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namor Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 That sounds like a "go away" quote to me, but then again I have never went and asked around for quotes for stuff like this; I did them myself instead. Once you do all that other stuff, they should be looking at a couple hours of work at most. I couldn't see paying $800+ for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I used to charge $600 to $800 depending on the work involved (see the list above). It's all about time. It takes more time to do it right then most people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namor Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 But you would charge $600-$800 which included prep such as interior removal, fuel rail removal, etc, right? It sounds like the shops he went to want nothing to do with all that stuff though. They just want to do the welding portion of it, aka the easy part. I don't see how the welding portion of a baddog install could take more than even 2 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raven12 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I used to charge $600 to $800 depending on the work involved (see the list above). It's all about time. It takes more time to do it right then most people think. "Uses to charge" What do you charge now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) You have to keep in mind welding in the frame rails means overhead welding which is some of the most tedious welding, having slag run down your shirt isn't exactly fun. I think having the customer prep everything and bring it in isn't a bad idea, it doesn't lead to accusations of overcharging since you will see exactly the extent of the damage that has to be removed or any extra bits of floor they will have to patch. Usually if the frame rail is rusted out there's some more damage hidden elsewhere. For the price I think it depends on the extent of the work. Someone local had a quote for 3000 for floors and frame rails just to cut/install/primer. I wouldn't think 2000 would be ludicrous to drop off the car and have them do frame rails and maybe patch up some parts of the floor and put it all back together and drive away. 500-1000 doesn't sound too bad for just capping the frame rails, depending on how thurough they are. For a total complete replacement: Figure an hour or two to take out the interior without breaking anything (seeing how it is an old car, I could see them wanting the owner to do this so they don't break anything pricey like the center console) Figure two hours to strip the sound deadening from the floor Figure another 2-3 hours to sand/chip remnants and out line cut area Remove fuel, possibly brake lines, an hour or so here. Then lift the car and start sanding/chipping away under coat another 2 hours minimum here, more if you have to go all the way back to the rear sub frame. Hour to cut out the metal, most likely some of the floor will have to come out if you are trying to root out the rust. Weld in frame rail, if they do an imitated spot weld ~1 hour if they predrilled the holes, if they do seam welding ~3 hours, keep in mind this is overhead/out of position welding, some of the most tedious kind other than cramped interior welding. Seal rail with seam sealer Re-undercoat bottom of car Reinstall fuel and brake lines Lower car Spray interior Re apply sound deadening Reinstall interior Check that car still runs That's a good 20 hours in labor there. Asking you to do a majority of the labor may be a kindness rather than charging 80-120$ an hour. 800-900 for just the welding portion seems to be a bit on the high side, but the frame rails are pretty long so it is quite a bit of welding and the inevitable fitting. If you want to see if they really want you to go away, ask how they are planning on welding it in, spot welds, plug welds, seam welds? How clean the metal has to be, what the turn around is. If the guy can't give you answers he probably doesn't really want the work at the moment, and you probably don't want to give it to him as it may sit on the back burner for a while. On the flip side, a simple cap job at the bare minimum: Pull out seats Lift car Move fuel lines to the side Clean just the two strips of area along the frame rail you need to put the cap on Weld cap in, have someone standing by with fire extinguisher to put out the sound deadening that will catch on fire Can't imagine being charge more than 300$ for such a service, granted the amount of work you will have to do afterwards would be quite extensive, and the smell of burning sound deadening is pretty atrocious. There would also be no guarantees or warrantees with such an install, so you kind of get what you pay for. If you have a bit of a welding experience, and you are willing/wanting to take on a bigger project, find a mentor/friend who has done this type of repair and have him help you along, you would be surprised what your neighbors/friends might know. Edited November 21, 2013 by seattlejester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Most body shops and repair shops dont like working on old/hobby cars.They over-estimate to insure profit.If the car is up high enough so it is easy to work on you can prefit the frame rails to make sure all surfaces are at bare metal.Try calling a mobil welder-you will probably get charged by the hour and get a good job done.If the metal burns away from rust while welding then you know you will have more work involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Remove the carpet and sound proofing yourself. It takes 5 minutes to remove carpets and 5 months and a lot of cussing to remove the tar paper. I respect my welder too much to ask that of him at any price. Do the dirty work yourself and save skilled work for skilled people. And pay them well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Welding in frame rails usually requires someone inside the car to put out the inevitable fires unless you're spending huge amounts of time stripping both sides down to bare metal. During the early 1980s, regular brake cleaner was 1,1,1, trichloroethane which actually has "extinguishing fires" as a possible usage in literature from manufacturers. Well......somebody changed the forumulation for " brake cleaner" in the early 1990s to something that burns with great enthusiasm so..........when we had someone up in the car with a can of brake cleaner playing "whack-a-mole" with the little fires as the guy below welded, a great ball of fire was observed amid much cussing. Edited November 21, 2013 by HowlerMonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 "Uses to charge"What do you charge now? I work as a fabricator in a Porsche shop since I sold Betamotorsports in April. I'm only doing work on a few leftover customers. We are way too expensive for the Datsun world. Its simple economics. We have 22 cars backed up and each car has at least $10,000 worth of work waiting to get done with most over $25,000 in parts and labor. It would be silly to pull a tech off any job to bill $800 for a day's work. The estimate 9rider got above is very reasonable if the work is done well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLATA Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 (edited) This mod is essential on a mid 12's Z with an LS1 mill, I have the same type on my Z and glad that was part of the conversion this is the custom made set up on Z VETTE. The lower pic is another application FWIW Edited November 22, 2013 by PLATA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Honestly, if they are going to do a good job then the price they quoted is fair. John installed my Bad Dog frame rails and subframe connectors. I was happy I went to John and would gladly pay the price I did. You do not want to do this half-assed because if they do not do a good job, you are basically creating cavities for water to pool under you floor pans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9rider Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 Thanks guys and gals for all the input. Most of the body-shop that i stopped by have extreme well reputation and work with all new and modern cars. Some of them are friends and they asked why I spend money on this piece of ****. Anyway, they said it is not just welding the frame rail in but it is more involve with the car body structure and alignment and such. They didn't want to wrist the body ( I'm really don't really know what they was talking about), so they would align it and then weld the frame. I still don't know how far will I go with this car-project. I don't know if I will put it to 500HP or just keep it stock but I know the frame rail is critical part and redo it will not a funny or easy job. So, 800 bucks seem reasonable to most of guys here, I will save up and do it after the Black Friday if still have any money left. I will keep you update and will take some pictures of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 If the shop is really picky and wants to make sure they do the job correctly the shop will mount the car on a frame straightening rack/table and check for frame alignment problems before adding any new parts.An example of what not to do-putting ther car on mismatched jackstands on an uneven floor and welding the frame rails in.You will probably weld in a twist into the unit body.If the car was put on a frame table to have the rails welded in a $800 to $1k estimate would be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLave Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Just finished mine up, I would have to get paid quite a bit to do it all over again start to finish. I think a lot of people grossly underestimate just how much work it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsicard Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Thanks guys and gals for all the input. Most of the body-shop that i stopped by have extreme well reputation and work with all new and modern cars. Some of them are friends and they asked why I spend money on this piece of ****. Anyway, they said it is not just welding the frame rail in but it is more involve with the car body structure and alignment and such. They didn't want to wrist the body ( I'm really don't really know what they was talking about), so they would align it and then weld the frame. I still don't know how far will I go with this car-project. I don't know if I will put it to 500HP or just keep it stock but I know the frame rail is critical part and redo it will not a funny or easy job. So, 800 bucks seem reasonable to most of guys here, I will save up and do it after the Black Friday if still have any money left. I will keep you update and will take some pictures of the process. Get some Clecos, 10-32 screws and self locking nut and fender washers. Drill every six inches along either side of the new frame rails and bolt them together with the floor. My 240Z has floor metal SO THIN it just made sense to do it this way. Lot cheaper than welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLave Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Get some Clecos, 10-32 screws and self locking nut and fender washers. Drill every six inches along either side of the new frame rails and bolt them together with the floor. My 240Z has floor metal SO THIN it just made sense to do it this way. Lot cheaper than welding. Good luck with that. I would absolutely not do that. If my floors were thinned to the point I couldn't weld to them, I would have to replace the floor pans or get a new chassis all together. Screwing bad dogs to rusty pans, probably wont hurt anything, but it wont help either. Basically they would just be down there hanging on for the ride. Its a unibody, all the panels contribute to strength, if the floor is compromised the chassis is compromised. Sorry to be the bad guy and a big jerk, but that is just bad advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morbias Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 lol I wouldn't even put welds six inches apart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 The trick to not twisting the chassis is to tack weld the rear sections in first (both sides) while shooting a last down the chassis to make sure they point toward the center of the front rail structure at the TC rod mount. Then tack weld the front sections in place (both sides) again using the laser for alignment. Then weld the front and rear sections together. Now you can do the full stich/seam welding of the frame rails to the car, alternating sides of the car, front to back, and inner/outer edges of the rails for each weld. If you get the rails welded together straight while tacked to the car, the stich/seam welding will not affect the chassis alignment if you alternate where you weld. The won't overpower the rocker panels, closed doors, or the roof structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsicard Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Good luck with that. I would absolutely not do that. If my floors were thinned to the point I couldn't weld to them, I would have to replace the floor pans or get a new chassis all together. Screwing bad dogs to rusty pans, probably wont hurt anything, but it wont help either. Basically they would just be down there hanging on for the ride. Its a unibody, all the panels contribute to strength, if the floor is compromised the chassis is compromised. Sorry to be the bad guy and a big jerk, but that is just bad advice. I did not say the floor pans were RUSTY. They are NOT. The 240Z is the lightest in weight of the Zs. The Bad Dogs will keep the floor pans from oil canning and the floors are stronger. I know it is a UNIBODY. The floors are NOT a significant structural components of the chassis. It is not bad advice. It is good advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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