280zex Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I just installed my new fully programmable distributor from 123ignitionusa.com The install is so fresh that I have not started the beast yet as it is 7:15am in Seattle. The fit and finish is the best I have ever seen, super clean! The cap and rotor have copper contacts instead of aluminum. The unit is much more compact than my stock match box dizzy. Install was really straight forward and only requires 3 wires for connection. There is a 4th wire (yellow) that will allow for a +12vdc input switch for changing between 2 different ignition curve programs. This unit allows for ignition retard under boost!!!! It has 2 different programmable curves, 1= mechanical advance, 2= vacuum advance/boost retard. The software interface is clean and very easy to understand. Also there is the function to tune on the fly, I.E. tune it while driving. I would suggest performing dyno tuning for this part. I will take some video later as its still too early in the morning to fire up the monster Z right now, so stay tuned!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh280z Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Do you have to use vacuum advance? Do you have to use the BCDD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snailed Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) Seems like a nice package to make your ignition work the best it can. It's so weird mentally to separate rpm based timing and load based timing but I guess that's how people used to mechanical distributors think about it and that should help them tune it I guess. Are you running a separate fuel injection too? Why not megasquirt or something like that? Josh280z, you don't have to use any of the tunable features if you don't want your engine to run correctly. You can just put the same value in across the table and it won't change, completely negating why you would buy a tunable ignition in the first place. Edited February 23, 2014 by Snailed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zex Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 I don't run fuel injection. I have a Holley 4bbl/turbo blow thru and really needed to have an distributor ignition system that can do mechanical advance along with vac advance and boost retard. There is no other distributor driven system that can do what I need, at least not that I know of or have found during my research. my only other option would be edis and mega squirt, but I don't run FI so why add all the extra equipment just for ignition control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) The last is the reason I mentioned it here in the first place. This is cost-competitive with having a distributor rebuilt and professionally recurved for the N/A crowd without any of the downside of using a mechanical advance mechanism. Anybody who ever re calibrated a vacuum advance can, cut the plate for advance or retard, cut the weights to alter the curve...and then made strap strap-down for a dyno run only to go "crap!" And pull it all apart to tweak this or that till it's all right will immediately appreciate turning knobs and simple laptop based tuning of the spark curve. The forced induction benefits are obvious as stated already. Sure beats a Unilite or a worn-out E12-80! Edited February 23, 2014 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh280z Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Snailed I do apologize I misstated my question, what I meant was... Do you have to use to vacuum to get it to advance, or can you set it to advance based on RPM without connecting to a vacuum port? Am I explaining that correctly? I do appreciate all your help regarding this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Yes, as stated you don't need to MAP base the load curve, and it's adjustable... But why on earth would you NOT use manifold load sensing and lose performance and gas mileage???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 There are two components to advance. Mechanical - rpm based MAP - load based One (mechanical) gives you reasonable performance The other, (MAP) used how much load you have to add additional advance OR remove it from the basic curve. It considerably increases fuel economy, and can prevent engine damage when boosted. For an N/A it's primarily an advance adder allowing higher advance when lightly loaded. Advance you can't add in a basic mechanical advance curve as you would detonate like crazy under higher loads at the same engine speed. Think about going up a hill and down a hill at the same speed. Two very different advances can be tolerated by the engine. But the engine speed (mechanical) is identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zex Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Thanks for the explanation Tony. I have been unable to fill in the info due to a large auto repair work load at the moment. I will be working on the z today and post up my findings as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snailed Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Cool, yeah it looks like a good system for your needs 280zex. I love electronic management and how easy it is to tune compared to old stuff. Josh, tony summed it up. Your question was fine, I just used different terms so it probably looked weird how I answered it. Check out some timing maps from other ignition managements (google image search "timing map") and you will see one axis on the graph represents load/vac and the other is RPM. It's the same info as this system lets you tune but presented in a slightly different way and for the third time...why would you NOT tune for load? I am constantly adding vac pots to domestic V8s. Those guys all buy "race" distributors and wonder why they get horrible mileage and overheat at idle. I always show them a factory ign map for the 20XX truck they drove to the shop in and they start to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh280z Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I never said I was going to run without vac advance,,,, You guys assumed, I was merely trying to answer to some questions I had floating around in my head and was trying to understand it too... Ive read multiple times about getting horrible mileage with mechanical advance, that's why when I rebuilt my distributor I put a new vacuum unit on it. Thank you guys for all your help in this matter. I learn sometimes it just takes a bigger hammer and a lots of beating for me to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zex Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Well I did as much tuning as possible in the garage. It started raining here so I called it a day. What I did learn is that my L28 likes a lot of initial timing, like 35deg btdc. My original dizzy (e12-80 match box) was locked at 20deg, no adv or retard, and the z was always a hard start. Now with the 123 dizzy the z fires right up, warm or not! All I need to do is just touch the key and she fires right up!! I have the mechanical advance curve programmed, and started to work on the vac advance/boost retard when the rain came in. For safety I put the boost retard at -10deg off static. Not optimal but safe for now. I don't like driving the monster in the rain, even with the new tires she will spin super easy!!! Even more so now that I have a more optimal timing curve, the beast is punchy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 What I have done in the past is use a stock distributor that has the mechanical and vacuum advances locked, and used an MSD 6AL-2 programmable. I have also used an 82-83 turbo distributor, but then you need to swap the pump shaft as well. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-6530/overview/ Save yourself $100 over the 123 unit. The MSD also has CDI, rev limiter, and crank retard. I wrote on it here: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/97010-280zxt-distributor-with-progammable-msd/?hl=6530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) You're right, that would work assuming the instructions on the MSD site are correct. I've never understood why they don't do a better job of explaining absolute pressure versus atmospheric pressure. It's hard to understand if they really understand what they're selling. How does the MSD unit handle starting timing? MAP pressure will be atmospheric until the engine cranks then will jump to low pressure, advancing timing. Unless the MAP sensor is on ported vacuum. (Actually I see that you covered that in the other thread, with high retard at low RPM). Is the software easy to use? It looks like an option, but you'll still have an old distributor, that you have to modify. So, the 123 option gives you a new ready-to-use distributor for $100, basically. On the other hand, MSD gives MSD, with a stronger spark. Seems like it's down to ease of install with 123 versus a few extra benefits with MSD. A good alternative though. Edit - You can download the MSD software here and try it out, the download is near the bottom of the page, Pro-Data+ software - http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Ignitions/6530_-_MSD_Digital_Programmable_6AL-2.aspx Have to say it's not pleasant. But you do get the satisfaction of solving a difficult problem. Edited March 3, 2014 by NewZed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) It doesn't use any MAP. It really just acts like a mechanical retard. So you set the distributor for the max advance you will run. Then you program the retard curve from there. Just set the retard for RPMs below 500 for your crank timing. It works great on a 13.5:1 L28. Starter saver. You cal always keep the vacuum advance if you need it for a street application and just use the MSD to simulate the mechanical advance. Edited March 3, 2014 by z-ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 It can use one though. For Boost Retard. That's where it's easy to get mixed up. In "absolute" terms, "boost" is anything above zero pressure (literal vacuum). We all live under ~14.5 pounds of boost. Keeping the distributor vacuum advance defeats the purpose of the 123 programmable ignition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 An old Nissan distributor with MSD is not nearly in the same league as 123. Fully-programmable is just that, you can create a 3D ignition map based on RPM, MAP, and spark advance. The MSD only allows a 2D map based on RPM and advance, plus it utilizes a used distributor with a bushing that has seen 30+ years of wear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zex Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 Exactly Leon, that's why I made my purchase. About the only thing I could want more is to have the 123 system run a cop ignition. Now that would be sweet!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) The MSD 6530 is wired for a MAP sensor. So you can program it for "vacuum" (lower pressure than atmospheric) advance if you buy a MAP sensor and wire it in to the MSD box. Just to tie up a loose end. If you read around the web world you'll find that confusion follows all of the MSD programmable boxes. MSD is like the sterotypical group of engineers, excellent technology just no ability to explain how to actually use it. They must be leaving big money in sales on the table. A simple re-write of their instructions and some better ad copy and they could sell a ton of the programmable units. From a business standpoint it's kind of incredible, that they could see the need, develop the product, then fail to get the word out to potential buyers. And never go back to fix it despite years of feedback. Another downside to the MSD is a MAP failure. Pros and cons. https://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19572 Edited March 4, 2014 by NewZed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Finding a Eurospec E12-80 with a Vacuum Retard Canister for boosted use (yes, they do exist!) is not as easy as finding one of these now...It's why I got excited, it's all new components, not something with 225,000 or 375,000+ miles on it already getting a new set of bushings and being told "good as new"... the options for hacking Nissan Parts have always been there, but the 6 box needs a BTM to compare... So much for that $100 savings. Frankly, for the $100 savings and the limitations the hack presents on a boosted application, or on a street vehicle... it's small potatoes. Well worth it IMO. I'm glad to see it's working out as I suspected. Now to get time to run one myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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